Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[P'tit Renard]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

How old are they?

Montreal's Azurs are relatively new. Started testing around 2016, full roll-out in 2018. Added more sets in 2021. They're arguably the nicest metro trains in North America.

[P'tit Renard]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I’d say commercial ties with France are growing though.

It is growing indeed, but for now the dominant trend is for Quebec to be a branch plant of French companies. Perhaps it'll take another generation or so before the economic relationship becomes more balanced.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by P'tit Renard

Montreal's Azurs are relatively new. Started testing around 2016, full roll-out in 2018. Added more sets in 2021. They're arguably the nicest metro trains in North America.

So why didn't the Montréal authorities require AC in those new trains? Political eco-extremism under Québec Solidaire pressure?

In France we had political eco-extremism between 1998 and 2015 when the left ruled the Paris Region. They stopped buying buses with AC, and bought only buses with no AC!! And the current left-wing Paris city hall has done a bit of political eco-extremism recently by refusing to install AC in the athlete's dormitories of the 2024 Paris Olympic Games! As a result, many delegations (such as Team USA) will bring portable AC, which are far less efficient and use more energy than central AC for an entire building. With portable AC, you have to leave windows open to let the hose with hot air out.

[Zeej]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

So why didn't the Montréal authorities require AC in those new trains? Political eco-extremism under Québec Solidaire pressure?

In France we had political eco-extremism between 1998 and 2015 when the left ruled the Paris Region. They stopped buying buses with AC, and bought only buses with no AC!! And the current left-wing Paris city hall has done a bit of political eco-extremism recently by refusing to install AC in the athlete's dormitories of the 2024 Paris Olympic Games! As a result, many delegations (such as Team USA) will bring portable AC, which are far less efficient and use more energy than central AC for an entire building. With portable AC, you have to leave windows open to let the hose with hot air out.

The Azur cars were designed to circulate the breeze of the car moving through the metro tunnels through the actual cars - passive ventilation. Actually a really nice touch. Because the entire metro system is underground, there is no relative heat gain or loss from the outdoors to deal with.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Zeej

The Azur cars were designed to circulate the breeze of the car moving through the metro tunnels through the actual cars - passive ventilation. Actually a really nice touch. Because the entire metro system is underground, there is no relative heat gain or loss from the outdoors to deal with.

Line 1 in Paris has had passive ventilation for a very long time (almost 20 years I would say), so I know passive ventilation quite well. It's better than nothing, but still inferior to AC. When it's more than 30 degrees outside, passive ventilation is unable to sufficiently cool passengers. Also during rush hours, passive ventilation is unable to cool passengers due to the masses of people taking line 1.

The Paris transports authority bought some new trains with a feeble AC in 2010 for line 1 (i.e. not a real AC, but still better than just passive ventilation), but their engineers did a lousy job, and within a year that feeble AC was not working anymore in all the trains (supposedly due to the system getting too clogged with dust and impossible to clean), and so they have reverted to the old passive ventilation. What's crazy is in an Anglo-Saxon country like the UK for instance, this would have been a major scandal that would have pushed the media to hound the transports authority, but here in France our journalists are totally useless, don't work much or do any investigation, so the collapse of the AC system after just one year was not even reported in the media, and in fact whenever there is a heatwave in summer the media still say line 1 has AC, when it hasn't been been true since 2012 (it was true only for one year in 2011-2012). The reason I know about it is because a- I was a regular user of line 1 back then, and b- at the SSC forum we have someone working for the Paris transports' authority who explained to us why it's not working anymore.

Same problem with RER B by the way (the RER line going from CDG airport to central Paris). Their AC (which was a real AC, not the feeble AC of the Paris métro), which is installed in half of the carriages (the newer green carriages), doesn't work in half of those new carriages due to the overhead AC system being clogged with dust which they are unable to clean. So if you ever land at CDG airport in summer, look for the newer green carriages (each train has half of its carriages (or "cars" as you call them in North America) that are the green new ones), then enter each one until you find one where AC is working. When AC works in RER B it makes a real difference. Super pleasant trip even in horribly hot heat waves. Alas that sort of full AC is a rarity on Paris lines.

As for tunnels and AC, NYC has subway trains with full AC, and it's not an issue. All of these are excuses in order not to install AC. Yes NYC subway platforms are hot in summer due to the AC of the trains, but it's far better to withstand heat on the platforms (where there is always a breeze and you can stand away from other passengers) rather than having to withstand heat in crowded trains. Besides, even on lines with no AC such as in Paris, the platforms are super hot during heatwaves anyway.

[P'tit Renard]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

So why didn't the Montréal authorities require AC in those new trains? Political eco-extremism under Québec Solidaire pressure?

I wouldn't be surprised if STM's management is stuffed full of PQ + QS Plateau bobos. STM's always argued against climatisation in the metro.

What you'd as label eco-extremism is pretty mainstream on Montreal island..Steven Guilbeault (Federal Minister of Environment) was once arrested for unhurling this:


https://lactualite.com/politique/steven-guilbeault-le-ministre-de-la-derniere-chance/

You might find this entertaining, from Valerie Plante's Projet Montreal:

Il fait chaud dans le métro
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zsUrVQNB888

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by P'tit Renard

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zsUrVQNB888

It's fascinating how whenever the Québécois sing, their accent suddenly disappears. It could almost have been a video made in France.

Anyway, do these "liberal" Plateau types know Montréal cannot save the planet? Even if Montréal disappeared tomorrow, it would make 0 difference to world climate. Besides, electricity (that powers AC) is produced by hydropower in Québec (and nuclear power in France).

What's wrong with the Francophone world? Why is it always us who are victim of these leftist ideologies (Marxism in the 1970s, now eco-extremists)?

PS: In France we call the eco-extremists the "Khmers Verts", but some people object to the use of that term.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by P'tit Renard

It is growing indeed, but for now the dominant trend is for Quebec to be a branch plant of French companies. Perhaps it'll take another generation or so before the economic relationship becomes more balanced.

Yes, that's mostly true. The company that has the contract for picking up waste materials (garbage, recycling, compost) in my city is Paris-based Derichebourg!

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by P'tit Renard

Montreal's Azurs are relatively new. Started testing around 2016, full roll-out in 2018. Added more sets in 2021. They're arguably the nicest metro trains in North America.

I've taken the métro in Montreal a lot during all four seasons. In my experience in the summer it's sometimes a bit humid down there but never really steamy hot to the point that it's uncomfortable. Even when it's 35-40C (or more with humidex) outside on the ground.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

I see that some people haven't appreciated that bit of his tweet. To be honest, I hadn't even noticed it, because in France it's just normal to say it the way he said it. It's understood as meaning "I'm going to visit Ottawa and Québec City (or Montréal)". Of course now that I think about it, no French politician would speak like that about any other country (for example, if he visited Washington DC and then the Silicon Valley, I cannot imagine that he would say "Je suis pour quelques jours aux Etats-Unis et en Californie").

"au Québec et au Canada" is a very standard phrase in Quebec politics and media. Even the federalists in Quebec will use it even though it hints that Quebec and Canada are two distinct (ie separate) entities.

I guess it's something that has grown on them over time, similar to Quebec City being billed "la capitale nationale" and a number of Quebec government agencies having "national(e)" in their name.

That said, all of this does get on the nerves of some people in the ROC, though they don't like when we say "au Québec et dans le reste du Canada" either.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Acajack

"au Québec et au Canada" is a very standard phrase in Quebec politics and media. Even the federalists in Quebec will use it even though it hints that Quebec and Canada are two distinct (ie separate) entities.

I guess it's something that has grown on them over time, similar to Quebec City being billed "la capitale nationale" and a number of Quebec government agencies having "national(e)" in their name.

That said, all of this does get on the nerves of some people in the ROC, though they don't like when we say "au Québec et dans le reste du Canada" either.

Even our PM uses it. It's not going to change.

[New Brisavoine]

Before the 1992 Barcelona Olympic Games, the Catalan regional authority published a full page advert in Le Monde saying "Où sont les Jeux olympiques de Barcelone ? En Catalogne bien évidemment." The next day the Spanish embassy in Paris ran a full page of advert saying "Où sont les Jeux olympiques de Barcelone ? En Espagne bien évidemment."

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Before the 1992 Barcelona Olympic Games, the Catalan regional authority published a full page advert in Le Monde saying "Où sont les Jeux olympiques de Barcelone ? En Catalogne bien évidemment." The next day the Spanish embassy in Paris ran a full page of advert saying "Où sont les Jeux olympiques de Barcelone ? En Espagne bien évidemment."

I remember quite clearly that during the opening ceremony of the Olympics, the leader of the Catalan government, Jordi Pujol, raised a few eyebrows when he welcomed the world to the "country of Catalonia", and if I recall correctly did not even mention Spain.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Acajack

"au Québec et au Canada" is a very standard phrase in Quebec politics and media. Even the federalists in Quebec will use it even though it hints that Quebec and Canada are two distinct (ie separate) entities.

I guess it's something that has grown on them over time, similar to Quebec City being billed "la capitale nationale" and a number of Quebec government agencies having "national(e)" in their name.

That said, all of this does get on the nerves of some people in the ROC, though they don't like when we say "au Québec et dans le reste du Canada" either.

Nerves or surprise. I remember travelling for the first time and when you get into those how do things work in my country discussions around the hostel table or whatever everyone from Quebec says in Quebec we have X. So In Quebec our mortgage rates are fixed for 5 years. Or in Quebec we have large drug stores that sell food and cosmetics. Conversely while in fact many of these things we compare are provincial everyone else just assumes all of Canada does it their way. So someone from Ontario will say in Canada when we get our drivers license you can't drive at night in the beginning. Or we can only buy alcohol in state owned stores or we have a centralized university application process with one day you get admission etc.

[lio45]

The difference is that in our case, that exact formulation implicitly refers to "le Canada anglais", so there's no redundancy, unlike "Catalonia AND Spain" for example.

"Le Québec et le Canada anglais" is just as logical as "Le Canada et les États-Unis" or "Les États-Unis et le Mexique", for examples.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by lio45

The difference is that in our case, that exact formulation implicitly refers to "le Canada anglais", so there's no redundancy, unlike "Catalonia AND Spain" for example.

"Le Québec et le Canada anglais" is just as logical as "Le Canada et les États-Unis" or "Les États-Unis et le Mexique", for examples.

In my experience people outside Quebec also recoil at "le Canada anglais" or "English Canada". Because the Canada they live in in their minds is also Indigenous, Ukrainian, Chinese, Philipino, Italian, Greek, Sikh, Jamaican, etc. Maybe even French - a little bit.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Acajack

In my experience people outside Quebec also recoil at "le Canada anglais" or "English Canada". Because the Canada they live in in their minds is also Indigenous, Ukrainian, Chinese, Philipino, Italian, Greek, Sikh, Jamaican, etc. Maybe even French - a little bit.

Yes and also because English Canada is also part of Quebec. There would be more English speakers in Quebec than people in most provinces. So you need to say French Speaking and English Speaking Canada.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Yes and also because English Canada is also part of Quebec. There would be more English speakers in Quebec than people in most provinces. So you need to say French Speaking and English Speaking Canada.

This sums it up quite nicely:

2. (1) The Constitution of Canada shall be interpreted in a manner consistent with

(a) the recognition that the existence of French-speaking Canadians, centered in Quebec but also present elsewhere in Canada, and English-speaking Canadians, concentrated outside Quebec but also present in Quebec, constitutes a fundamental characteristic of Canada; and

(b) the recognition that Quebec constitutes within Canada a distinct society.

(2) The role of the Parliament of Canada and the provincial legislatures to preserve the fundamental characteristic of Canada referred to in paragraph (1) (a) is affirmed

(3) The role of the legislature and Government of Quebec to preserve and promote the distinct identity of Quebec referred to in paragraph (1)(b) is affirmed.

(4) Nothing in this section derogates from the powers, rights or privileges of Parliament or the Government of Canada, or of the legislatures or governments of the provinces, including any powers, rights or privileges relating to language.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Acajack

This sums it up quite nicely:

2. (1) The Constitution of Canada shall be interpreted in a manner consistent with

(a) the recognition that the existence of French-speaking Canadians, centered in Quebec but also present elsewhere in Canada, and English-speaking Canadians, concentrated outside Quebec but also present in Quebec, constitutes a fundamental characteristic of Canada; and

(b) the recognition that Quebec constitutes within Canada a distinct society.

(2) The role of the Parliament of Canada and the provincial legislatures to preserve the fundamental characteristic of Canada referred to in paragraph (1) (a) is affirmed

(3) The role of the legislature and Government of Quebec to preserve and promote the distinct identity of Quebec referred to in paragraph (1)(b) is affirmed.

(4) Nothing in this section derogates from the powers, rights or privileges of Parliament or the Government of Canada, or of the legislatures or governments of the provinces, including any powers, rights or privileges relating to language.

Was "Sums it up nicely" sarcastic? It's a fudge of a fudge that ends with this section means nothing.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Was "Sums it up nicely" sarcastic? It's a fudge of a fudge that ends with this section means nothing.

A bit. You know what this is, though?