California High Speed Rail Thread

[jtown,man]

Originally Posted by MAC123

It is going to break your mind when you find out that California can build more than 1 thing at a time, and in fact does that constantly.

Like if you even taken a second to think before typing that you never would have. California is constantly improving local transit, and while it has its shortcomings, has come a long way from even the 1990s

What a silly response.

Duh. The point is what could that money have done if it were put elsewhere?

[MAC123]

Originally Posted by jtown,man

What a silly response.

Duh. The point is what could that money have done if it were put elsewhere?

The point is that there's more money than that, and it's narrow minded to think that it can only go to one thing.

The money is being put elsewhere; California is investing more into public transit now than ever before. And that includes a lot more than just CAHSR.

[numble]

Originally Posted by MAC123

The point is that there's more money than that, and it's narrow minded to think that it can only go to one thing.

The money is being put elsewhere; California is investing more into public transit now than ever before. And that includes a lot more than just CAHSR.

I do think a comparison instead of speaking in vague terms is worthwhile, though. The State of California has provided CAHSR with $6 billion in bond funding and $6.5 billion from cap-and-trade revenue. In that timeframe, it also passed SB1 to raise gas taxes to fund roads and public transit, but individual transit projects usually only receive $100-$400m in funding from the state.

It is fine to argue about what the state budget allocations for everything should idealistically be going forward, but I think it makes sense to say that the $6.5 billion in cap-and-trade revenue allocated to CAHSR to date from past budgets would have otherwise gone to urban public transit projects (since most of the rest of the cap-and-trade revenue goes to them, and the purpose of the program is to pay for emissions reduction projects).

[TWAK]

The Caltrain portion would count for that, unless the funds came from more than just HSR?

[numble]

Originally Posted by TWAK

The Caltrain portion would count for that, unless the funds came from more than just HSR?

$600 million of the $2.44 billion Caltrain electrification project budget came from HSR bond funding, the rest came from other sources.

[jtown,man]

Originally Posted by MAC123

The point is that there's more money than that, and it's narrow minded to think that it can only go to one thing.

The money is being put elsewhere; California is investing more into public transit now than ever before. And that includes a lot more than just CAHSR.

Resources are finite.

[Busy Bee]

I would recommend to all who question California's ability to finance this project to remind themselves just how utterly enormous the economy of California is. The insinuation that California can't afford this is insulting and laughable. The politics of this project is what has held back it's full aggressive support. Once the awe of the IOS is on full display there is going to be a paradigm shift in political perception and public awareness that will fundamentally change the trajectory of Phase 1. It is my prediction you'll be hard-pressed to find many that will want to pull the plug after seeing the future with the IOS streaking across the Central Valley and departing gorgeous stations unlike anything most American's have personally seen. Fence walking politicians and even Repugs won't be able to get on board fast enough to chase public enthusiasm by throwing their full support behind aggressive completion of Phase 1.

Have some confidence.

[hughfb3]

Upon opening day of the IOS, the CAHSR Authority should also open an express service from San Francisco to San Jose with actual high speed rail trains in full livery so people can see that more has been done than just the Central Valley segment.

This could build even more support for the connection tunnels between the Bay and Central Valley segments

[craigs]

Originally Posted by hughfb3

Upon opening day of the IOS, the CAHSR Authority should also open an express service from San Francisco to San Jose with actual high speed rail trains in full livery so people can see that more has been done than just the Central Valley segment.

This could build even more support for the connection tunnels between the Bay and Central Valley segments

I know a lot of intersections along the Caltrain route have been overhauled with under- and overpasses, but are there still at-grade crossings? If so, IIRC it would limit how fast the HSR trains can run on between San Jose and San Francisco.

[Busy Bee]

^Good idea

[Busy Bee]

Originally Posted by craigs

I know a lot of intersections along the Caltrain route have been overhauled with under- and overpasses, but are there still at-grade crossings? If so, IIRC it would limit how fast the HSR trains can run on between San Jose and San Francisco.

I think he just means as a promotional type thing, plus Caltrain and HSR trains won't be dramatically different speed wise up the Peninsula under the blended system - for bettter or worse.

[hughfb3]

Originally Posted by craigs

I know a lot of intersections along the Caltrain route have been overhauled with under- and overpasses, but are there still at-grade crossings? If so, IIRC it would limit how fast the HSR trains can run on between San Jose and San Francisco.

The peninsula corridor is shared with Caltrain, that was the compromise the authority made with the Peninsula cities as the cities didn’t want complete grade separation or a completely new set of tracks exclusive to HSR.

One of the main critiques that detractors like to say about CAHSR is that California has spent X years and X dollars and “not a single track has been laid.” The idea of Opening the Peninsula corridor CAHSR with full livery the same day or earlier than the IOS; operating roughly the same service pattern as envisioned, will go along way to demonstrate that this project is more than just laying new track, its upgrading Caltrain’s entire rail infrastructure and portions of Metrolink’s

[38 Geary]

Originally Posted by hughfb3

The peninsula corridor was always going to be shared with Caltrain and was never going to have full grade separation, that was the compromise that the authority had to make with the Peninsula cities as they didn’t want complete grade separation or a completely new set of tracks.

One of the main talking points that people like to say when downing CAHSR is that we’ve spent X years and X dollars and “not a single track has been laid.” Opening the Peninsula corridor from opening day operating the service pattern that CAHSR would operate once the system is complete will go along way to demonstrate that this project is more that just laying new track, its upgrading Caltrain’s entire rail infrastructure and part of Metrolink’s

Has there been any prep done on the LA end of the initial CAHSR route? I don't recall if they've started work on the Bakersfield to Palmdale segment, Palmdale to Burbank segment, or the Burbank to Union Station segment or not. Will it be sharing tracks with the Metrolink Antelope Valley Line?

[hughfb3]

Originally Posted by homebucket

Has there been any prep done on the LA end of the initial CAHSR route? I don't recall if they've started work on the Bakersfield to Palmdale segment, Palmdale to Burbank segment, or the Burbank to Union Station segment or not. Will it be sharing tracks with the Metrolink Antelope Valley Line?

No construction on anything south of Bakersfield. Final EIR will be complete by next year for Southern California segment as the Palmdale to Burbank section will require brand new tunnels through the mountains, then will share track with Metrolink from Burbank to Anaheim. Metrolink from Union Station to Anaheim could have been electrified by now partially using CAHSR funds just like Caltrain, but they have been “dragging their feet” and toying with Hydrogen trains. They don’t want to spend money on overhead electrical systems.

[38 Geary]

Originally Posted by hughfb3

No construction on anything south of Bakersfield. Final EIR will be complete by next year for Southern California segment as the Palmdale to Burbank section will require brand new tunnels through the mountains, then will share track with Metrolink from Burbank to Anaheim. Metrolink from Union Station to Anaheim could have been electrified by now partially using CAHSR funds just like Caltrain, but they have been “dragging their feet” and toying with Hydrogen trains. They don’t want to spend money on overhead electrical systems.

It does look like Burbank to Union Station will at least be utilizing the existing Metrolink ROW, so that portion will have to be electrified at some point, hopefully sooner rather than later. I wonder how much grade separation they'll try to achieve there as well. That's low hanging fruit at least that could be completed relatively quickly and easily, since it looks like Palmdale to Burbank and Bako to Palmdale will require extensive tunneling.

[TWAK]

Originally Posted by homebucket

It does look like Burbank to Union Station will at least be utilizing the existing Metrolink ROW, so that portion will have to be electrified at some point, hopefully sooner rather than later. I wonder how much grade separation they'll try to achieve there as well. That's low hanging fruit at least that could be completed relatively quickly and easily, since it looks like Palmdale to Burbank and Bako to Palmdale will require extensive tunneling.

Probably anywhere that's blended should get the Caltrain treatment, just to give the project more visibility. They can run local trains before HSR service starts as well on those lines, to get use out of the upgrades earlier and I hope this could even be applied to the phase two cities before phase two starts. I'm pretty sure the major urban areas/cities have to use some form of blended...

[FromSD]

Originally Posted by hughfb3

The peninsula corridor is shared with Caltrain, that was the compromise the authority made with the Peninsula cities as the cities didn’t want complete grade separation or a completely new set of tracks exclusive to HSR.

One of the main critiques that detractors like to say about CAHSR is that California has spent X years and X dollars and “not a single track has been laid.” The idea of Opening the Peninsula corridor CAHSR with full livery the same day or earlier than the IOS; operating roughly the same service pattern as envisioned, will go along way to demonstrate that this project is more than just laying new track, its upgrading Caltrain’s entire rail infrastructure and portions of Metrolink’s

I think I read somewhere that the HSR trains would be limited to 110 miles on the Peninsula corridor. The question I had: won't that corridor between San Jose and SF get really congested once the HSR trains are added to the Caltrain trains? Caltrain runs a lot of trains. Caltrain's non-express trains stop at stations that are spaced fairly close together and so are going much slower. In many places there are only two tracks. What happens when HSR throws all its trains into the mix? Are there plans to add more tracks, especially tracks to allow HSR trains to bypass all the intermediate stations between San Jose and SF?

[hughfb3]

Originally Posted by FromSD

I think I read somewhere that the HSR trains would be limited to 110 miles on the Peninsula corridor. The question I had: won't that corridor between San Jose and SF get really congested once the HSR trains are added to the Caltrain trains? Caltrain runs a lot of trains. Caltrain's non-express trains stop at stations that are spaced fairly close together and so are going much slower. In many places there are only two tracks. What happens when HSR throws all its trains into the mix? Are there plans to add more tracks, especially tracks to allow HSR trains to bypass all the intermediate stations between San Jose and SF?

That is correct, trains will be limited in their speed while in the blended corridor, but Caltrain's new Stadler KISS electric trains can go 110. Even with limited speeds, it is still just shy of the Brightline's maximum speed of 125 mph. There are quadruple tracks for passing in Redwood City and Sunnyvale, triple tracks at SFO and Tamien, then everything south of San Jose (Coyote) is single tracked and will be upgraded once full HSR comes through. It should be enough with coordinated schedules where Caltrain makes stops that HSR does not and could allow it to pass.

[jmecklenborg]

Originally Posted by FromSD

I think I read somewhere that the HSR trains would be limited to 110 miles on the Peninsula corridor. The question I had: won't that corridor between San Jose and SF get really congested once the HSR trains are added to the Caltrain trains? Caltrain runs a lot of trains. Caltrain's non-express trains stop at stations that are spaced fairly close together and so are going much slower. In many places there are only two tracks. What happens when HSR throws all its trains into the mix? Are there plans to add more tracks, especially tracks to allow HSR trains to bypass all the intermediate stations between San Jose and SF?

The capacity of the blended corridor is limited by the Transbay Terminal's six platforms. There will be a maximum of four HSR trains per hour arriving and departing DTSF, or one roughly every 15 minutes.

If a second Transbay Tube can be built, the Terminal can be turned into a through-running station, and it will instantly be able to serve many more trains.

[jmecklenborg]

Originally Posted by hughfb3

There are quadruple tracks for passing in Redwood City and Sunnyvale, triple tracks at SFO and Tamien,

Also, the planned approach tunnel to Transbay Terminal will be three tracks.