California High Speed Rail Thread

[craigs]

Today's Los Angeles Times has a great article about the planned high-speed rail line between Southern California and Las Vegas. It appears likely that this line will open before CAHSR and thus become the nation's first true high-speed railroad. They are aiming to have it open by the 2028 Olympics.

[Illithid Dude]

Personally speaking I think these all look fantastic.

[38 Geary]

California bullet train project needs another $100 billion to complete route from San Francisco to Los Angeles
Updated: 7:43 AM PDT Mar 13, 2024
Ashley Zavala

SACRAMENTO, Calif. — As the state faces economic headwinds, California's mega high-speed rail project between San Francisco to Los Angeles also faces major funding hurdles, the project's CEO Brian Kelly told state lawmakers Tuesday.

Kelly testified in front of the State Senate's Transportation Committee on the High-Speed Rail Authority's updated draft business plan. In Tuesday's hearing, Kelly told lawmakers the project has $28 billion dollars on hand, but noted it was still a few billion dollars short to complete the Central Valley segment between Merced and Bakersfield. Depending on how long the segment takes to finish, it could cost between $32 Billion to $35 Billion. Kelly said the project is hoping to fill the gap with federal funds. That segment of the project is expected to be fully operational between 2030 and 2033, Kelly said.

Project leaders estimate it will still need an additional $100 billion to finish what voters were originally pitched in 2008: a bullet train that runs between San Francisco and Los Angeles. A timeline on its completion has not been set as the authority waits for environmental clearances for those segments.

https://www.kcra.com/article/california-...nding-san-francisco-los-angeles/60181448

[LAsam]

And if they say $100B, it will probably end up higher than that.

[edale]

What a mess and an embarrassment. So the estimate is now $135 billion for the whole project? And complete by when...2060? If this project was supposed to provide an example of the viability of HSR in the US, I'd say it's failing spectacularly. I highly doubt we'll ever see more than the CV line. $35 billion to connect f***ing Merced to Bakersfield...what a joke.

[craigs]

Originally Posted by edale

What a mess and an embarrassment. So the estimate is now $135 billion for the whole project? And complete by when...2060? If this project was supposed to provide an example of the viability of HSR in the US, I'd say it's failing spectacularly. I highly doubt we'll ever see more than the CV line. $35 billion to connect f***ing Merced to Bakersfield...what a joke.

What state do you live in, again?

CAHSR will eventually run between the Bay Area and Southern California if Washington remains cooperative. That said, I don't expect service expansions to Sacramento and San Diego. In such a scenario, existing rail lines to those cities could be upgraded to faster rail, if not truly high-speed rail.

Meanwhile, the private Brightline high-speed railroad (publicly funded, of course) between Southern California and Las Vegas will be an example of the viability of HSR in the US. It will almost certainly be the first in the nation.

[Busy Bee]

Originally Posted by craigs

That said, I don't expect service expansions to Sacramento and San Diego. In such a scenario, existing rail lines to those cities could be upgraded to faster rail, if not truly high-speed rail.

We were going to have to wait a very long time for those anyway. That said, when they do happen I fully expect them to be fully compatible expansions of the then fully operational Phase 1.

Confidence is what is sorely lacking in this country.

[TowerDude]

Originally Posted by craigs

What state do you live in, again?

CAHSR will eventually run between the Bay Area and Southern California if Washington remains cooperative. That said, I don't expect service expansions to Sacramento and San Diego. In such a scenario, existing rail lines to those cities could be upgraded to faster rail, if not truly high-speed rail.

Meanwhile, the private Brightline high-speed railroad (publicly funded, of course) between Southern California and Las Vegas will be an example of the viability of HSR in the US. It will almost certainly be the first in the nation.

Amtrak should take over all Brightline operations.

[Nexis4Jersey]

Originally Posted by TowerDude

Amtrak should take over all Brightline operations.

Given that they recived billions in loans and grants Amtrak should take over...but I feel like Amtrak would then be stuck with 2 terminals that preclude proper expansions. Las Vegas station should have been along the UP tracks in Downtown not the outskirts.. RC is an even bigger hurdle to connect to LAU.

[TowerDude]

Originally Posted by Nexis4Jersey

Given that they recived billions in loans and grants Amtrak should take over...but I feel like Amtrak would then be stuck with 2 terminals that preclude proper expansions. Las Vegas station should have been along the UP tracks in Downtown not the outskirts.. RC is an even bigger hurdle to connect to LAU.

From what I understand the Rancho station is just the phase 1 terminal for the Brightline Vegas route and the end game is for Brightline and CAHSR to collaboratively build the LA Union Station-Rancho leg of CAHSR and have Brightline trains run from Union Station. Or at least for some of Brightline's money being put towards the Union Station-Rancho leg of the route.

[Easy]

Originally Posted by Nexis4Jersey

Given that they recived billions in loans and grants Amtrak should take over...but I feel like Amtrak would then be stuck with 2 terminals that preclude proper expansions. Las Vegas station should have been along the UP tracks in Downtown not the outskirts.. RC is an even bigger hurdle to connect to LAU.

If I’m understanding correctly, I don’t agree that the government* should operate the vehicles because it invested in the infrastructure. Too many examples where that doesn’t happen from airports to private vehicles. However it would make sense that there be competition to operate the equipment. It does seem unusual to make the infrastructure available to only a single private company.

I think that there’s a good chance that at least the part of CAHSR that connects LAUS to Rancho Cucamonga could happen if they’re able to start just that phase. They’ll likely have to take away freeway lanes or homes, or maybe both to do it.

*Amtrak isn’t technically a government company and would likely be a downgrade from Brightline.

[jmecklenborg]

The Brightline line as currently planned between "LA" and "Las Vegas" might technically be the nation's first HSR line, but it's going to be small-time by any global standard and as compared to CAHSR.

It's amazing how CAHSR's IOS ending many miles north of LA is a "failure" but Brightline gets a pass for the same transgression. Similarly, CAHSR won't be high speed or fully grade separated in its approach to San Francisco, but Brightline won't even attempt to reach DT Las Vegas.

[edale]

Originally Posted by jmecklenborg

The Brightline line as currently planned between "LA" and "Las Vegas" might technically be the nation's first HSR line, but it's going to be small-time by any global standard and as compared to CAHSR.

It's amazing how CAHSR's IOS ending many miles north of LA is a "failure" but Brightline gets a pass for the same transgression. Similarly, CAHSR won't be high speed or fully grade separated in its approach to San Francisco, but Brightline won't even attempt to reach DT Las Vegas.

Brightline is proposed to stop right off the Vegas strip, so I don't know what you're talking about. On the other end, Brightline will be stopping in Rancho Cucamonga. While it's obviously not as good as it coming to DTLA (which I believe it eventually will) at least RC is in the metro area and is currently served by commuter rail. Bakersfield is nowhere close to Los Angeles, not in the metro area, and is not connected to LA by passenger rail at all. Pretty big difference!

[edale]

Originally Posted by craigs

What state do you live in, again?

CAHSR will eventually run between the Bay Area and Southern California if Washington remains cooperative. That said, I don't expect service expansions to Sacramento and San Diego. In such a scenario, existing rail lines to those cities could be upgraded to faster rail, if not truly high-speed rail.

Meanwhile, the private Brightline high-speed railroad (publicly funded, of course) between Southern California and Las Vegas will be an example of the viability of HSR in the US. It will almost certainly be the first in the nation.

I live in California, and have been a big supporter of CAHSR since it was announced. I'm incredibly disheartened by the pace of construction, massive cost increases, and the horrible mismanagement of this project. The CAHSR CEO even said "I hope we have the wherewithal to do San Francisco to LA in 3 hours" after completing the initial segment. Hoping to get the project done, with $100+ billion more added, at this stage is really — to hear.

How about you? Any thoughts? What state do you live in?

[Busy Bee]

edale, I understand your frustration. The timeline and process has been aggravating and disappointing. It is very important to stay positive though and not get too down over this. The future could just as easily see an acceleration of progress and significant federal dollars that will enable the beginning of serious work beyond IOS. I do ask you please site that quote by Kelly... I find that very surprising he would say those exact words.

[numble]

Originally Posted by Busy Bee

edale, I understand your frustration. The timeline and process has been aggravating and disappointing. It is very important to stay positive though and not get too down over this. The future could just as easily see an acceleration of progress and significant federal dollars that will enable the beginning of serious work beyond IOS. I do ask you please site that quote by Kelly... I find that very surprising he would say those exact words.

Here's the video and the transcript of the March 12 California Senate Transportation Committee Meeting:

https://www.senate.ca.gov/media/senate-transportation-committee-20240312/video
https://vod.senate.ca.gov/videos/2024/20240312_Transprtation.vtt

01:28:49.257 --> 01:28:50.958
WE ARE IN A

01:28:51.025 --> 01:28:52.260
BETTER PATH TODAY ON IT THEN

01:28:52.326 --> 01:28:54.062
WHEN I STARTED AND I BELIEVE IT

01:28:54.128 --> 01:28:56.297
WILL GET DONE, AND THEN I HOPE

01:28:56.364 --> 01:28:57.632
WE HAVE THE WHEREWITHAL TO DO

01:28:57.699 --> 01:28:59.233
SAN FRANCISCO TO L A AND THREE

01:28:59.300 --> 01:29:00.201
HOURS BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT THIS

01:29:00.268 --> 01:29:02.136
PROJECT CAN DO, AND I THINK

01:29:02.203 --> 01:29:03.037
THAT'S REALLY IMPORTANT.

[edale]

Originally Posted by Busy Bee

edale, I understand your frustration. The timeline and process has been aggravating and disappointing. It is very important to stay positive though and not get too down over this. The future could just as easily see an acceleration of progress and significant federal dollars that will enable the beginning of serious work beyond IOS. I do ask you please site that quote by Kelly... I find that very surprising he would say those exact words.

The quote is from the video included with this article: https://www.kcra.com/article/california-...nding-san-francisco-los-angeles/60181448

I am still supportive of the project and don't want it cancelled or anything, but I am very frustrated and I think several critical errors have been made so far that seriously jeopardize the likelihood that this project ever sees full completion in my lifetime.

[Busy Bee]

Hmm, he seems to be emphasizing the time aspect more than whether the actual SF-LA route will see completion. Which is odd since the Measure language has a legal requirement of 2:40 station to station which the entirety of all engineering and specifications for the entire program is based off of.

[TWAK]

Originally Posted by edale

I live in California, and have been a big supporter of CAHSR since it was announced. I'm incredibly disheartened by the pace of construction, massive cost increases, and the horrible mismanagement of this project. The CAHSR CEO even said "I hope we have the wherewithal to do San Francisco to LA in 3 hours" after completing the initial segment. Hoping to get the project done, with $100+ billion more added, at this stage is really — to hear.

A lot of this has to do to the lawsuits that were intended to derail or stall the project, and it sure looks like it working in the minds of Californians. As long as construction is continuous, then it's ok and they have already started testing trains on the Caltrain part. Costs are going to rise with everything else and there's no way a contractor is gonna be paid in 2008 or 2018 money for something being built last year.

None of the mistakes have really been explained and a lot of it can be answered just by looking at the initial bond (like the speed complaints). I'd like to know about the mismanagement, specifically since it's an entire Authority.

Originally Posted by Busy Bee

Hmm, he seems to be emphasizing the time aspect more than whether the actual SF-LA route will see completion. Which is odd since the Measure language has a legal requirement of 2:40 station to station which the entirety of all engineering and specifications for the entire program is based off of.

Yup, and that includes the "not HSR!" travel time that was part of the OG proposition.

[jtown,man]

Originally Posted by homebucket

https://www.kcra.com/article/california-...nding-san-francisco-los-angeles/60181448

Who cares at this point.

The supporters would still support it if it were 10 trillion, they don't care.

Even though this money could have been used in a MASSIVE way to build bikeways and improve local transit throughout California.

But no, they are getting a massively overbudget rail line that competes with the airlines (aka most poor people won't use it).