Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by thebasketballgeek

And also you keep mentioning that learning a language can be a detriment to other skills. How so? I believe learning a language does a tremendous job in developing your brain such as improving memory, listening ability, and helps at avoiding cognitive decline as one ages. It makes you smarter in many other ways than just the implied benefits of language learning.

Oh I agree with that. You won't need to tell that to someone like me who can speak several languages, and also took Latin in high school.

I was specifically talking of the state not having infinite amount of money to teach kids everything (so the government has to make choice), and the kids not having infinite time to learn everything (so you have to prioritize what they learn). Surely teaching some elementary skills in English is needed (especially in a bilingual country like Canada), but requiring 100% of children to reach perfect English fluency would be a complete waste of money (and perhaps even detrimental to the survival of the French language; Ireland and other territories have shown that perfect bilingual levels lead quickly to the death of the minority language).

You know a minority language is healthy when it has a sizeable number of unilingual speakers who cannot speak the dominant language. In Ireland the last unilingual speaker or Irish (who couldn't speak any English) died in the 1970s. That's why I did not understand the sarcasms and criticism when Pauline Marois was premier of Québec and couldn't speak English well. I didn't think it was a bad thing (she has translators anyway), I thought actually it showed that the French language in Québec was healthy. You can start to worry when you don't have people like Pauline Marois anymore.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

And I think there is a good chance of a more nationalistic president in France in the future, even if it isn't Le Pen. Given the state of French politics, there is a good chance it might be someone we barely know at this point!

Oh, we already know him: his name is Jordan Bardella (native Francophone despite his first name, typical of French lower class from the 1990s who watched too many US series). Perhaps he'll be president of France in 2032, or 2037. But I doubt either him or Marine Le Pen are that interested in Québec. Also, you're going to sound full MonctonRad if you think the French far-right has any "nationalist" interest in the Francophone part of Canada. Canada, and North America more largely, is completely outside of their sphere of interest.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Oh, we already know him: his name is Jordan Bardella (native Francophone despite his first name, typical of French lower class from the 1990s who watched too many US series). Perhaps he'll be president of France in 2032, or 2037. .

Even I know Jordan's name.

You're due for a new president in 2027 though.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Ozabald

Sure, and Manitoba, Ontario, New Brunswick, PEI can suspend their French language services. To paraphrase:
"If AI and automatic translation software will make second language fluency irrelevant in the near future, then why is it so important for other provinces to give so many services in the French language?" Why would New Brunswick, in particular, need to remain officially bilingual?

You know, I suppose, that the Québécois really don't care all that much about French services in the ROC. The only thing that matters to them (since the 1960s at least) is what happens inside Québec (plus federal services and trans-provincial companies that they have to use). The Québec sovereignists, in particular, have completely written off the Francophones from outside Québec. They are already considered lost for the cause.

So I don't think anyone in Québec will be outraged if New Brunswick curtails French services (in fact, it will only reinforce prejudices among the sovereignists).

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

. But I doubt either him or Marine Le Pen are that interested in Québec. Also, you're going to sound full MonctonRad if you think the French far-right has any "nationalist" interest in the Francophone part of Canada. Canada, and North America more largely, is completely outside of their sphere of interest.

Oh, I don't have any illusions about that. They have plenty of identity issues to worry about at home.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

You know, I suppose, that the Québécois really don't care all that much about French services in the ROC. The only thing that matters to them (since the 1960s at least) is what happens inside Québec (plus federal services and trans-provincial companies that they have to use). The Québec sovereignists, in particular, have completely written off the Francophones from outside Québec. They are already considered lost for the cause.

So I don't think anyone in Québec will be outraged if New Brunswick curtails French services (in fact, it will only reinforce prejudices among the sovereignists).

Also, consider that sovereignists are of the view that French is imperilled in Quebec itself.

Before you worry about the fire in the barn, you worry about putting out the fire in the house where you live. Doesn't mean you hate or don't care about the barn. Just that you need to prioritize.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Even I know Jordan's name.

You're due for a new president in 2027 though.

He's not running in 2027. Marine Le Pen is (and I don't think she will win, for the same reasons as the last 3 times).

Jordan Bardella may win in 2032 or 2037 however. He's a much more shrewd operator than her. Very impressive communicator I must say.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by lio45

Maybe as a U.S. Territory that doesn’t have two new Always Blue Senators in DC, it could work.

Nova Scottians (or whatever their name is) really want to be a dependent territory with no representation in Congress like Puerto Rico? I very much doubt it.

They'll remain part of the rump Canada, I would bet anything. They already fly to go to Ontario, they'll continue flying, it's not like they will see a difference from their plane windows. It's not going to be inscribed "Québec Libre" on the land below.

Note, by the way, that the same situation already exists in North America, and it's called... Alaska. Physical separation doesn't seem to be an issue.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

New Brunswick would more logically be split up into anglophone and francophone zones.

Even that, I don't believe it. If Québec seceded, I think the federal government of the remaining Canada would be totally opposed to splitting New Brunswick (for fear of creating yet another province that could secede in the future). The most likely scenario, sadly for the Acadians, is less and less rights for the French language in the remaining Canada, and probably the extinction of the French language in New Brunswick within a century.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Even that, I don't believe it. If Québec seceded, I think the federal government of the remaining Canada would be totally opposed to splitting New Brunswick (for fear of creating yet another province that could secede in the future). The most likely scenario, sadly for the Acadians, is less and less rights for the French language in the remaining Canada, and probably the extinction of the French language in New Brunswick within a century.

Oh, I don't think NB would be split into two provinces. Just that it would have francophone and anglophone zones "operationally". It's already like that to some degree, even if there are some exceptions where both languages coexist in a type of fragile balance (Campbellton, Bathurst and Moncton particularly).

I agree that if Quebec secedes, French services and rights in NB would slowly decline. But it wouldn't be a brutal sudden change like you might see in some other provinces. There are both practical and political reasons why NB would go slow on this.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by lio45

Honestly, looking at my own life “parcours” since university, I would say I wouldn’t be anywhere near where I am, without English fluency.

An interesting aspect of this however is that I would likely be almost in the same place if I hadn’t learned the language of the RoC (with the lone exception of one Vancouver contract that didn’t have any impact on the significant digit of my net worth), my use of English was nearly all as the global lingua franca and language of the economic behemoth next door

Are you representative of the 8 million Québécois? The answer is in the question. We all have different "parcours". There are some people who are perfectly happy running the local mom and pop grocery store in Saguenay with only 'pure laine' clients. And perhaps they even have a better life than either you and I (fishing through the ice in the lake after work, etc).

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

He's not running in 2027. Marine Le Pen is (and I don't think she will win, for the same reasons as the last 3 times).

Jordan Bardella may win in 2032 or 2037 however. He's a much more shrewd operator than her. Very impressive communicator I must say.

So who will be Macron's "dauphin"?

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Today's news: City of Toronto releases municipal survey in multiple languages, none of which is French.

Seriously? Sounds almost straight out of The Onion.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

So who will be Macron's "dauphin"?

Either Edouard Philippe (aka "Mr 80 km/h on roads"), or Gabriel Attal (young and inexperienced, but "télégénique").

I'm afraid we'll have Edouard Philippe as president, et ça ne m'enchante guère... Yet another technocrat (and I cannot forgive his decision to unilaterally lower the speed limit "just because", out of divine right, he thought that was good for us the plebe, without even discussing it in Parliament).

I would very much hope for the mayor of Cannes from the center-right to be a serious contender, because I think he has all the good ideas (yes, in another life as an Anglo-Canadian I'd probably support Poilievre too), but unfortunately he's not famous enough to become a serious contender in time for 2027.

That being said, French presidential elections can bring surprises, so I'm still crossing my fingers.

[thebasketballgeek]

Originally Posted by Acajack

You actually pressed 2 (or 9) for French service on help lines when you lived in Manitoba to be able to check that?

Well not when I lived in Manitoba but when I had to change my health and drivers information I was able to not only get service in French, but I found that the wait times were much shorter than the English lines.

[Ozabald]

Originally Posted by thebasketballgeek

Well not when I lived in Manitoba but when I had to change my health and drivers information I was able to not only get service in French, but I found that the wait times were much shorter than the English lines.

I think you are shattering the myth that many Quebecois have that French language services in Manitoba are nothing but cosmetic window dressing. They don't realize the extent of French language services which exist at the provincial level and in the City of Winnipeg.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Ozabald

I think you are shattering the myth that many Quebecois have that French language services in Manitoba are nothing but cosmetic window dressing. They don't realize the extent of French language services which exist at the provincial level and in the City of Winnipeg.

Shhh - you don't want to disrupt their world view.

[Ozabald]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Nova Scottians (or whatever their name is) really want to be a dependent territory with no representation in Congress like Puerto Rico? I very much doubt it.

They'll remain part of the rump Canada, I would bet anything. They already fly to go to Ontario, they'll continue flying, it's not like they will see a difference from their plane windows. It's not going to be inscribed "Québec Libre" on the land below.

Note, by the way, that the same situation already exists in North America, and it's called... Alaska. Physical separation doesn't seem to be an issue.

Likely, the first province to go in a post Quebec separation Canada would be Newfoundland. The connection to Canada is weak when compared to other provinces. Technically, Canada Day is not a holiday in Newfoundland as July 1st is officially known as Memorial Day.

Voters were basically bribed by money to join Canada from the pro-Confederation side back in 1948. If the option to join the US was on the ballot during the 1948 referendum, likely it would have won; as the USA was held in high regard by Newfoundlanders given the massive amount of US government investment in Newfoundland through its military presence during WWII with bases at Fort Pepperrell (now Pleasantville) in St. John's, Argentia; and Harmon AFB in Stephenville; plus the US government built roads; telecommunications infrastructure and hospitals in Newfoundland during this time. The last of the US military presence left Newfoundland in 1994.

Now, with a 200-mile limit; a rebound in fishing and with offshore oil, expanded hydro power in Labrador, an independent Newfoundland would be successful. It would interesting if the US would envision Newfoundland as an "East Coast" Alaska.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Ozabald

Now, with a 200-mile limit; a rebound in fishing and with offshore oil, expanded hydro power in Labrador, an independent Newfoundland would be successful. It would interesting if the US would envision Newfoundland as an "East Coast" Alaska.

It's interesting to speculate how the US would negotiate with an independent Quebec over the transmission of Churchill Falls power from the 51st state of Newfoundland to the lower 48.

I somehow suspect that Hydro Quebec would lose their cash cow real quick........

[thebasketballgeek]

Originally Posted by Ozabald

I think you are shattering the myth that many Quebecois have that French language services in Manitoba are nothing but cosmetic window dressing. They don't realize the extent of French language services which exist at the provincial level and in the City of Winnipeg.

Wait till they find out the current Premier of Manitoba is also fluent in French. He already reinstated the position of Assistant Deputy Minister in French Education which was provoked back in 1974, and did an entire interview in French discussing the importance and future of the language in the province.

Here’s the link it’s a good listen: https://ici.radio-canada.ca/nouvelle/2011826/wab-kinew-election-manitoba-2023-fort-rouge-npd