Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[thewave46]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

There are many things you can equip children with, but money is limited, as is time. Why should complete fluency in English for 100% of children be made a priority over some other skills that may be more useful in tomorrow's world?

North America outside of Quebec will likely be English-language dominated for the foreseeable future. That's the reason.

Quebec will never be France with respect to language due to its requirement to interface with anglophones on all its borders.

Might as well give one's kids a basis to work in that reality, even if it isn't optimal from a cultural standpoint.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

If AI and automatic translation software will make second language fluency irrelevant in the near future, then why is it so important for Quebec to become independent to preserve the French language?

Uh... French is not a 2nd language in Québec.

[Zeej]

Originally Posted by Acajack

(I doubt that Pierre Poilievre will have much time for Canada-France relations, and maybe not even for the "Québec issue", for that matter.)

In the event of a 3rd referendum in the coming years, which now seems distinctly possible, PP will be put in a strange position. He will most likely be solicited to at least speak on behalf of federalism in English Canada, but he is an 'outsider' to the debate.

In past referendums, the attitude from the NON has always been to leave it to Québec and its politicians to shape the debate and affect the outcome. It wasn't really an issue with Trudeau or Chrétien because, while both were Prime Minister in '80 and '95 respectively, they were Québec politicians.

Not sure PP, who is from Western Canada and holds a seat in the Ottawa suburbs, would even be welcome at a rally for the NON. But who knows - his French is decent (all things considered), his wife is from Québec (but is she considered Québecoise?) and he is gaining popularity provincially, if polls are to be trusted.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by thewave46

Quebec will never be France with respect to language due to its requirement to interface with anglophones on all its borders. .

How often do people in Saguenay "interface" with Anglophones? Why should 100% of children be brought to complete English fluency there, to the detriment of other skills?

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Zeej

Not sure PP, who is from Western Canada and holds a seat in the Ottawa suburbs, would even be welcome at a rally for the NON.

Does he have an Anglo accent when he speaks French?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

How often do people in Saguenay "interface" with Anglophones? Why should 100% of children be brought to complete English fluency there, to the detriment of other skills?

I always say that everyone who actually *needs* high fluency in English in Quebec inevitably reaches high fluency in English.

But the difference between me and anglophones is that they think everyone who *needs* high fluency in English in Quebec is basically anyone they might casually bump into in the province, so that they don't have the discomfort of having to navigate things with someone who doesn't speak their language.

[Ozabald]

Originally Posted by Acajack

It *says* they offer bilingual service. It doesn't mean they do.

The Thousand Islands Bridge border crossing (the one I use the most) supposedly offers bilingual service. In practice though it does not.

Heck, even Ottawa airport in our country's capital doesn't really offer bilingual service worthy of that name.

I assume you are referring to Susan Starkey's experience:
https://montreal.citynews.ca/2023/07/24/...sh-service-for-health-insurance-details/

Or this one:
https://montreal.citynews.ca/2024/02/21/...ges-quebec-government-over-language-law/

Imagine, being denied medical treatment based on the teaching language of the school you attend.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Does he have an Anglo accent when he speaks French?

Yes, of course.

https://ici.radio-canada.ca/info/videos/1-8717664/entrevue-avec-pierre-poilievre?isAutoPlay=1

A quite similar accent to that of the late Jack Layton.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tsEy03jmYqs

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Uh... French is not a 2nd language in Québec.

I was speaking about second language fluency in general, not limited to Quebec.

You also weren't specifically referencing Quebec.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Zeej

In the event of a 3rd referendum in the coming years, which now seems distinctly possible, PP will be put in a strange position. He will most likely be solicited to at least speak on behalf of federalism in English Canada, but he is an 'outsider' to the debate.

In past referendums, the attitude from the NON has always been to leave it to Québec and its politicians to shape the debate and affect the outcome. It wasn't really an issue with Trudeau or Chrétien because, while both were Prime Minister in '80 and '95 respectively, they were Québec politicians.

Not sure PP, who is from Western Canada and holds a seat in the Ottawa suburbs, would even be welcome at a rally for the NON. But who knows - his French is decent (all things considered), his wife is from Québec (but is she considered Québecoise?) and he is gaining popularity provincially, if polls are to be trusted.

It's noteworthy that just prior to the 1980 Quebec referendum, there was a short interlude where Joe Clark (Conservative) was PM of Canada. He was a westerner who spoke French (worse accent than Poilievre) and had a conciliatory attitude towards Quebec. But he stayed out of the Quebec debate and referendum build-up, avoiding it like a 10-foot pole. But he was defeated and replaced by PE Trudeau just before the referendum, who jumped in with both feet.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Does he have an Anglo accent when he speaks French?

And what difference does that make, as long as he can get his point across??

Or, are you referring to an Anglo accent as being a marker of not being "chez nous", which, in your mind, apparently is a disqualification from being able to participate in the debate.

Just how racist are you New Brisavoine???

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Yes, of course.

https://ici.radio-canada.ca/info/videos/1-8717664/entrevue-avec-pierre-poilievre?isAutoPlay=1

A quite similar accent to that of the late Jack Layton.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tsEy03jmYqs

Not sure this is particularly useful to the discussion, but two can play at this game.

Imagine having your rapist go free because the court says it can't find a goddam interpreter who speaks French - in northern Ontario, Canada, in 2020!

https://ici.radio-canada.ca/nouvelle/1754650/services-francais-sault-sainte-marie-jordan-justice

[thebasketballgeek]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

How often do people in Saguenay "interface" with Anglophones? Why should 100% of children be brought to complete English fluency there, to the detriment of other skills?

Well for starters by the time they get to Secondary 5, most kids are far from 100% fluent because they only get 2 hours of class time a week for English. In comparison they get around 2 hours of class time a day for French. It’s only the people that take part in English accelerated programs who obtain that fluency. but those same students taking part in those classes likely play video games, travel around North America, and watch movies/tv shows in English as well which imo is just as important for developing language skill.

The accelerated programs varies by region, but in my region it generally means 6-8 hours of class time a week while learning one additional subject in English. I heard in Québec city they do half the school year in English and the other half in French via 3 week cycles.

And also you keep mentioning that learning a language can be a detriment to other skills. How so? I believe learning a language does a tremendous job in developing your brain such as improving memory, listening ability, and helps at avoiding cognitive decline as one ages. It makes you smarter in many other ways than just the implied benefits of language learning.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by thebasketballgeek

Well for starters by the time they get to Secondary 5, most kids are far from 100% fluent because they only get 2 hours of class time a week for English. .

Yes, I think this is a good point. More than a few of my kids' friends aren't really that good at English, and they live in Gatineau right next to Ottawa and the border with Ontario.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

PSPP is more likely to obtain power in Québec than Marine Le Pen in Paris.

In any case I think the French elites have mostly given up on Québec. In the 1990s, a large majority of French people (including its elites) were quite sympathetic to the idea of Québec's independence, but these days (now) few people think Québec will ever become independent. So there's been a form of "lassitude" with the whole thing, as if watching people unable to make up their mind, and a desire to move on.

Since Québec is unable to achieve independence, a strong relationship with Canada is now favored, especially as Canada is seen as mostly an ally of France in international affairs.

Now of course IF Québec did indeed achieve independence (which would come as a surprise now to most French elites), then obviously the relationship between both countries would be strong. But until then, I wouldn't expect much, even if your PSPP becomes the leader of the province of Québec.

Agree on all points. I just think that a more nationalistic president in France with PSPP in Québec might still be interesting politically (more for us than for you I realize), especially if there is an indifferent Poilievre in power in Ottawa.

And I think there is a good chance of a more nationalistic president in France in the future, even if it isn't Le Pen. Given the state of French politics, there is a good chance it might be someone we barely know at this point!

[Zeej]

Originally Posted by Acajack

It's noteworthy that just prior to the 1980 Quebec referendum, there was a short interlude where Joe Clark (Conservative) was PM of Canada. He was a westerner who spoke French (worse accent than Poilievre) and had a conciliatory attitude towards Quebec. But he stayed out of the Quebec debate and referendum build-up, avoiding it like a 10-foot pole. But he was defeated and replaced by PE Trudeau just before the referendum, who jumped in with both feet.

I'm guessing that PP will probably want to stay away too. He doesn't stand to gain much from making large concessions to Québec.

Perhaps the furthest he would go might be signing over the remaining immigration powers, as this appears to be a hot button issue for years to come. Pure speculation on my part. Assuming a resulting victory for the NON, he would probably then have to quietly devolve some of these powers to the other provinces to keep the peace.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Zeej

I'm guessing that PP will probably want to stay away too. He doesn't stand to gain much from making large concessions to Québec.

Perhaps the furthest he would go might be signing over the remaining immigration powers, as this appears to be a hot button issue for years to come. Pure speculation on my part. Assuming a resulting victory for the NON, he would probably then have to quietly devolve some of these powers to the other provinces to keep the peace.

Of course, if PP is PM of Canada and there is another Quebec referendum, he and his government will play a huge role behind the scenes. He just won't personally be centre-stage during the campaign.

[ToxiK]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Not sure this is particularly useful to the discussion, but two can play at this game.

Imagine having your rapist go free because the court says it can't find a goddam interpreter who speaks French - in northern Ontario, Canada, in 2020!

https://ici.radio-canada.ca/nouvelle/1754650/services-francais-sault-sainte-marie-jordan-justice

If the same thing happened in Québec with an Anglophone, ROC media would have a field day. And there would be anger in Québec among Francophones too.

(BTW, Acajack, did you quote the right post?)

[ToxiK]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

If AI and automatic translation software will make second language fluency irrelevant in the near future, then why is it so important for Quebec to become independent to preserve the French language?

Anglos can be Anglos, French can be French, and they can live harmoniously side-by-side. If they need to converse, then just whip out their IPhones to carry on the conversation.

Easy Peasy. No linguistic tensions to worry about.

If AI and automatic translation software will make second language fluency irrelevant in the near future, then why is it so important for Quebec to give so many services in the English language?

Anglos can be Anglos, French can be French, and they can live harmoniously side-by-side. If they need to converse, then just whip out their IPhones to carry on the conversation.

Easy Peasy. No linguistic tensions to worry about.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by ToxiK

If the same thing happened in Québec with an Anglophone, ROC media would have a field day. And there would be anger in Québec among Francophones too.

(BTW, Acajack, did you quote the right post?)

Oops. You're right. I wanted to quote Ozabald.