Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[kool maudit]

You guys in Paris need to keep building bridges for your Quebecois fellows. If this will be true it will be up to France.

There is an idea that Quebec can be like Scandinavia with regard to English. It isn't true, I don't think; that cultural software won't run on the hardware of the French language.

(This is a compliment, by the way. It is because the French language sees itself as glorious, and the Nordic languages do not.)

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

I distinctly remember people and local media in Halifax discussing whether it might even be worth considering joining the United States. There is apparently some old provision for Nova Scotia, I don't know, maybe that's folklore. But people who could call on the Premier were mentioning it.

"Joining the United States" means "the USA accepting Nova Scotia". You don't just "join" the US, you have to be accepted. Never gonna happen, especially in the current, dysfunctional climate of US politics.

[kool maudit]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

"Joining the United States" means "the USA accepting Nova Scotia". You don't just "join" the US, you have to be accepted. Never gonna happen, especially in the current, dysfunctional climate of US politics.

Of course. I am recounting a memory, not advocating for a rebellion.

The point was to illustrate how, on the eve of what is now remembered as a clean triumph of Canadian federalism, there were murmurs and complications pointing in other directions.

It is like how you read about Allen Dulles in Switzerland with the OSS, plotting potential deals to make with Hitler. It didn't go down like that, and it now seems inconceivable that it ever could have. But in the moment, people were looking in all kinds of directions.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

You guys in Paris need to keep building bridges for your Quebecois fellows. If this will be true it will be up to France.

At the "state" level, France and Québec have moved further apart since the 1990s. It started with Sarkozy who didn't give a fig about Québec and just wanted a strong relationship with Canada. Macron is not very different I believe. His relationship with Trudeau, whom he sees as a sort of clone, is more important to him that that pesky province of Québec.

I'd say currently the official, state-level relationship between France and Québec is as weak as it was before de Gaulle's trip in 1967.

On the other hand, the "personal" relationship, at the individual level on the ground, is probably the highest it's ever been, due to the many French expats now living in Québec. Some forumers here mention how young people in Québec now mimic the accent of France. This would have been unthinkable in the 1990s.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

"Joining the United States" means "the USA accepting Nova Scotia". You don't just "join" the US, you have to be accepted. Never gonna happen, especially in the current, dysfunctional climate of US politics.

The First Continental Congress had, as a resolution, a provision allowing for automatic future membership to all the British North American colonies, including Nova Scotia, St. John's Island (PEI), Newfoundland and Canada (Quebec).

[harls]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

That seems rather crazy. Why do they insist so much on English proficiency? Not everybody will need English in their professional life.

Yeah. Just drop that English stuff. And the ROC can drop those silly French classes.

Then we can be truly segregated.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

There is an idea that Quebec can be like Scandinavia with regard to English. It isn't true, I don't think; that cultural software won't run on the hardware of the French language.

DOES-NOT-COMPUTE. ERROR! ERROR! ERROR!

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by harls

Yeah. Just drop that English stuff. And the ROC can drop those silly French classes.

Then we can be truly segregated.

Or even full apartheid, with electrified barbed wires.

[Zeej]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

That feeling of sudden, rising support for a thing that would portend massive, destabilizing change, and then that second feeling of it just not happening and the whole issue being somehow downgraded from the political to the individual level and boiled off as commentary...

...these have become familiar. But this was an early instance.

I didn't yet live in Quebec in 1995, I moved to Montreal in '96. In the final days and during the count, I distinctly remember people and local media in Halifax discussing whether it might even be worth considering joining the United States. There is apparently some old provision for Nova Scotia, I don't know, maybe that's folklore. But people who could call on the Premier were mentioning it.

A funny complication that was quickly forgotten.

At the time, Saskatchewan was secretly but seriously studying the possibility of applying to become the 51st state, in the event of a sovereignist victory. It's documented in the book The Morning After, a fantastic read.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

You guys in Paris need to keep building bridges for your Quebecois fellows. If this will be true it will be up to France.

There is an idea that Quebec can be like Scandinavia with regard to English. It isn't true, I don't think; that cultural software won't run on the hardware of the French language.

(This is a compliment, by the way. It is because the French language sees itself as glorious, and the Nordic languages do not.)

At least, the status quo Quebec as a province of Canada is rather unlikely to pull it off...

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

That feeling of sudden, rising support for a thing that would portend massive, destabilizing change, and then that second feeling of it just not happening and the whole issue being somehow downgraded from the political to the individual level and boiled off as commentary...

...these have become familiar. But this was an early instance.

I didn't yet live in Quebec in 1995, I moved to Montreal in '96. In the final days and during the count, I distinctly remember people and local media in Halifax discussing whether it might even be worth considering joining the United States. There is apparently some old provision for Nova Scotia, I don't know, maybe that's folklore. But people who could call on the Premier were mentioning it.

A funny complication that was quickly forgotten.

Even across Canada in general there was more grassroots talk about joining the US in the 1990s (during the Clinton presidency) than at any point in my lifetime.

This was one of the better contemporary periods for the US in most respects whereas Canada had the referendum and ancillary unity and identity crises, government cutbacks and bungling, recessions, a plunging dollar and purchasing power...

My wife and I were starting out our careers after coming out of university during that decade and quite a few of our fellow graduates moved to the US. It would be interesting to see the stats but my generation might be one of those that was most likely to move to the US, out of people aged 70 and under at least.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

Of course. I am recounting a memory, not advocating for a rebellion.

The point was to illustrate how, on the eve of what is now remembered as a clean triumph of Canadian federalism, there were murmurs and complications pointing in other directions.

It is like how you read about Allen Dulles in Switzerland with the OSS, plotting potential deals to make with Hitler. It didn't go down like that, and it now seems inconceivable that it ever could have. But in the moment, people were looking in all kinds of directions.

It wasn't that long ago that at least some serious people were talking about the EU evolving into some sort of country-like entity, à la United States of Europe.

[MolsonExport]

I love how people that don't live in this country, and therefore have no skin in this game, and have no family that are affected by the political winds (no matter which way they blow), think they have a privileged, nuanced perspective, and feel that they are able to tell it like it is.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

I love how people that don't live in this country, and therefore have no skin in this game, and have no family that are affected by the political winds (no matter which way they blow), think they have a privileged, nuanced perspective, and feel that they are able to tell it like it is.

And who also have wet dreams about an independent francophone state in North America, and who apparently relishes every opportunity to stick it to the God damned steak and kidney pie eating Anglos.

By Jove, maybe New Brisavoine is a resurrected Jacques Parizeau.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

On the other hand, the "personal" relationship, at the individual level on the ground, is probably the highest it's ever been, due to the many French expats now living in Québec. Some forumers here mention how young people in Québec now mimic the accent of France. This would have been unthinkable in the 1990s.

Note that for most of them I don't think they necessarily do it because France itself is seen as that cool, but rather it's just a way of speaking that they're more exposed to due to social media and the Internet. The true meaning of "viral", you could say.

[thebasketballgeek]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

That seems rather crazy. Why do they insist so much on English proficiency? Not everybody will need English in their professional life.

I see a lot of that "magical thinking" in Europe too. As if any kid in the most remote backwaters of Extremadura needed to be perfectly fluent in English...

I thought I would never use French for the rest of my life for my career and then I moved to Québec this year.

Point is you can’t predict the future regarding career prospects, but you can equip your students with the skills of acquiring a second language. Especially the most important language ln the world which is only amplified further being surrounded by English speaking states and provinces around them. The popular pastimes, tv shows, music, sports and pop culture are dominated by Anglo media and that will never change whether Québec stays in Canada or doesn’t. I mean even in this thread about Québec we’re discussing in English lol.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

At the "state" level, France and Québec have moved further apart since the 1990s. It started with Sarkozy who didn't give a fig about Québec and just wanted a strong relationship with Canada. Macron is not very different I believe. His relationship with Trudeau, whom he sees as a sort of clone, is more important to him that that pesky province of Québec.

I'd say currently the official, state-level relationship between France and Québec is as weak as it was before de Gaulle's trip in 1967.
.

I think this is quite accurate.

Paris-Ottawa relations were quite cool for a couple of decades after Vive le Québec libre. Pierre Elliot Trudeau was not yet PM in 1967 but he was still in the federal government at the time and was always bitter about that speech. He was the dominant figure in Ottawa until 1984.

Québec-Paris relations progressively warmed up over that time and reached their peak in the early 1990s between the two Jacques: Parizeau and Chirac.

Then you had the Chrétien-Sarkozy bromance that strengthened the Ottawa-Paris channel like never before, and short-circuited Quebec's efforts. Helped by the fact that Sarkozy was very good friends with Paul Desmarais, a Franco-Ontarien-Québécois business magnate who son is married to Jean Chrétien's daughter.

It will be interesting to see what happens if Paul St-Pierre Plamondon and Marine Le Pen obtain power in Québec and Paris, and how this will affect the dynamic in the coming years.

(I doubt that Pierre Poilievre will have much time for Canada-France relations, and maybe not even for the "Québec issue", for that matter.)

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by thebasketballgeek

Point is you can’t predict the future regarding career prospects, but you can equip your students with the skills of acquiring a second language.

There are many things you can equip children with, but money is limited, as is time. Why should complete fluency in English for 100% of children be made a priority over some other skills that may be more useful in tomorrow's world? Especially as AI and automated translation will probably make speaking a foreign language rather irrelevant.

I call that "magical thinking". I'm sorry but, for example, seeing schools in the province of Girona bordering France now ditching French language teaching in their high schools and forcing 100% of children to learn English is both retarded and "magical thinking". France was, is, and will be the #1 commercial partner of Catalonia, and employees in Girona are far more likely to meet French speakers than English speakers.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

There are many things you can equip children with, but money is limited, as is time. Why should complete fluency in English for 100% of children be made a priority over some other skills that may be more useful in tomorrow's world? Especially as AI and automated translation will probably make speaking a foreign language rather irrelevant.

If AI and automatic translation software will make second language fluency irrelevant in the near future, then why is it so important for Quebec to become independent to preserve the French language?

Anglos can be Anglos, French can be French, and they can live harmoniously side-by-side. If they need to converse, then just whip out their IPhones to carry on the conversation.

Easy Peasy. No linguistic tensions to worry about.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

It will be interesting to see what happens if Paul St-Pierre Plamondon and Marine Le Pen obtain power in Québec and Paris, and how this will affect the dynamic in the coming years.

PSPP is more likely to obtain power in Québec than Marine Le Pen in Paris.

In any case I think the French elites have mostly given up on Québec. In the 1990s, a large majority of French people (including its elites) were quite sympathetic to the idea of Québec's independence, but these days (now) few people think Québec will ever become independent. So there's been a form of "lassitude" with the whole thing, as if watching people unable to make up their mind, and a desire to move on.

Since Québec is unable to achieve independence, a strong relationship with Canada is now favored, especially as Canada is seen as mostly an ally of France in international affairs.

Now of course IF Québec did indeed achieve independence (which would come as a surprise now to most French elites), then obviously the relationship between both countries would be strong. But until then, I wouldn't expect much, even if your PSPP becomes the leader of the province of Québec.