Transit Fantasies

[chowhou]

Originally Posted by Tvisforme

For the North Shore, I'd think it is more likely that those potential stations would simply be named:

• Lonsdale (probably Lonsdale Quay realistically)

I really just do not see a viable way to have a Lonsdale Quay Skytrain station (without underwater construction I guess). The Shipyards is just too in the way, and Esplanade is completely fouled by the Lonsdale tunnel.

If you look at my map you'll see I've routed it all the way along 3rd from Forbes to Brooksbank.

Originally Posted by Sheba

All the images I've seen (inc from Burnaby) show it connecting Metrotown and Brentwood - not Gilmore. My guess for station locations would be:
- Metrotown
- Bond
- Sanderson Way
- Canada Way
- Brentwood

...and then somewhere around Hastings & Willingdon, then Hastings & Boundary / Kootenay and then maybe a station in Burnaby Heights before crossing the water to a Phibbs station. I don't know the North Shore well enough to suggest stations there, other than Lonsdale and Park Royal (no need to go further into West Van).

You'll also notice that all of those alignments have the purple line along Hwy 1 to Hastings, then take a 90 degree turn along Hastings to Willingdon before taking another 90 degree turn south. This just isn't a practical route for a Skytrain. Translink also has a mandate from the province to build as much elevated guideway as possible without tunnelling. Going through Brentwood would require a tunnel from the Second Narrows all the way to around BCIT. It will have to be tunnelled through Brentwood Town Centre, and there just isn't a viable tunnel portal until the BCIT lands. Meanwhile a Gilmore alignment allows for a tunnel from the Second Narrows to Willingdon Heights Park which makes for an excellent tunnel protal. Then it can be elevated all the way to Deer Lake Parkway from there.

Originally Posted by madog222

That’s too many stations, one study that has been done has 10 stations.

My guess for those 10 would be: Metrotown, BCIT, Brentwood, Hastings, Phibbs/Main St, Bainbridge, Lonsdale, Capilano Mall, Norgate, and Park Royal.

While I agree that 10 stations is likely at completion, I don't think it's unreasonable for these infill stations to be built by 2050.

But also, Bainbridge?

[Migrant_Coconut]

Brocksbank, probably. Personally I'd argue that Queensbury is a bit more convenient for Lynn Valley riders.

Sure hope there's a tunnel from the SeaBus to 3rd Street - between waiting for a feeder bus or walking up the hill, transfers will be a —.

[madog222]

Originally Posted by chowhou

But also, Bainbridge?

Hahahahahahah, was writing that fast, not sure where that came from. Should be Moodyville.

[chowhou]

Originally Posted by Tvisforme

For the North Shore, I'd think it is more likely that those potential stations would simply be named:

• Phibbs Exchange
• Brooksbank
• Moodyville
• Lonsdale (probably Lonsdale Quay realistically)
• Bewicke
• Pemberton
• Capilano
• Park Royal

Also to add onto this, I took inspiration from the SLS Skytrain names along with the Canada Line names, it seems like when transit stations are located on a clear intersecting road but not in a clearly defined "place", if there is an available nearby landmark Translink prefers to name the station after the crossroad and landmark. Hence, Langara-49th, Broadway-City Hall, Hillcrest-184th. I might have gone a bit overkill with names like Phibbs-Mountain Highway.

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Brocksbank, probably. Personally I'd argue that Queensbury is a bit more convenient for Lynn Valley riders.

Sure hope there's a tunnel from the SeaBus to 3rd Street - between waiting for a feeder bus or walking up the hill, transfers will be a —.

I'm not sure a tunnel/feeder would be needed (in the near term). If you consider the North Shore and those travelling downtown, most of the North Shore busses already travel north-south with terminuses at Lonsdale Quay, if you're west of Mosquito Creek you're better off taking one of the many busses across the Lionsgate (257/254/253/250/247/246/241/240), and if you're east of Lynn Creek you're better off taking the one of the busses across the Second Narrows (214/211/210/209). Really the SeaBus and the Purple Line accomplish completely different things. There isn't a huge amount of benefit to having it connect to the Seabus if you ask me.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Assuming, of course, Purple makes it all the way to Park Royal from the get-go, rather than temporarily ending at Lonsdale while the next round of fed/province funding wires over. We're already seeing that with UBC. If the latter, many people in the downtown/Broadway area trying to get to somewhere between Cap Mall, Cap U and Deep Cove - or vice-versa - will likely figure the SeaBus is faster than the M-Line or R5 (possibly) or the First Narrows buses (absolutely)... and find out that no, that's not always the case.

It's not necessary, but it would be useful. Even after the full build-out, that's a third solid option for getting across the North Shore, rather than a ferry that's now only useful for Waterfront-Lonsdale riders.

[Tvisforme]

Originally Posted by chowhou

I really just do not see a viable way to have a Lonsdale Quay Skytrain station (without underwater construction I guess). The Shipyards is just too in the way, and Esplanade is completely fouled by the Lonsdale tunnel....

Sorry, I meant closer to the Quay as opposed to actually in the Quay. If the line rises to Moodyville, it would probably be underground at that point and could emerge on the west side of the hill to an elevated track that goes underground somewhere west of Lonsdale.

Originally Posted by chowhou

....If you consider the North Shore and those travelling downtown, most of the North Shore busses already travel north-south with terminuses at Lonsdale Quay...There isn't a huge amount of benefit to having it connect to the Seabus if you ask me.

The problem is that it introduces a significant travel delay for passengers using the SeaBus. While 3rd may only be a few blocks up from Lonsdale Quay, it's still a fair distance to walk and a hassle to wait a few minutes for a bus up Lonsdale, ride it a few stops, and then walk to the SkyTrain station. An elevated station on Esplanade would make connections much more efficient.

[chowhou]

Originally Posted by Tvisforme

Sorry, I meant closer to the Quay as opposed to actually in the Quay. If the line rises to Moodyville, it would probably be underground at that point and could emerge on the west side of the hill to an elevated track that goes underground somewhere west of Lonsdale.

I considered a 1st Street station, but even 1st is very far from the Seabus. I figured the benefit of a 3rd Street station's catchment outweighs the ease of transfer to the SeaBus.

The problem is that it introduces a significant travel delay for passengers using the SeaBus. While 3rd may only be a few blocks up from Lonsdale Quay, it's still a fair distance to walk and a hassle to wait a few minutes for a bus up Lonsdale, ride it a few stops, and then walk to the SkyTrain station. An elevated station on Esplanade would make connections much more efficient.

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Assuming, of course, Purple makes it all the way to Park Royal from the get-go, rather than temporarily ending at Lonsdale while the next round of fed/province funding wires over. We're already seeing that with UBC. If the latter, many people in the downtown/Broadway area trying to get to somewhere between Cap Mall, Cap U and Deep Cove - or vice-versa - will likely figure the SeaBus is faster than the M-Line or R5 (possibly) or the First Narrows buses (absolutely)... and find out that no, that's not always the case.

It's not necessary, but it would be useful. Even after the full build-out, that's a third solid option for getting across the North Shore, rather than a ferry that's now only useful for Waterfront-Lonsdale riders.

The Seabus is already a third solid option for getting across the Inlet for CNV residents. Pretty much the entire City of North Van, and Upper Lonsdale are well structured transit-wise to take a direct bus to the Seabus to get across to downtown.

If the Purple Line directly connects (or close) to the Quay, who exactly benefits from that? Perhaps Moodyville gets there 1 minute faster, but all of Lynn Valley is still taking either the 210 or 240, Central Lonsdale is still taking the 240/241 or the 229 to the SeaBus. Meanwhile, all of Lower Lonsdale between 3rd and Keith is suddenly a few blocks further away from the station, and it's significantly downhill from them.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by chowhou

The Seabus is already a third solid option for getting across the Inlet for CNV residents. Pretty much the entire City of North Van, and Upper Lonsdale are well structured transit-wise to take a direct bus to the Seabus to get across to downtown.

If the Purple Line directly connects (or close) to the Quay, who exactly benefits from that?...

CNV, yes. DNV, not so much.

Cap U students, and Lower Lynn/Maplewood/Deep Cove/etc residents - until the Gold Line opens, commuting east across Vancouver to the Second Narrows is a sub-par option, especially during peak hours. It could also benefit Cap Mall shoppers and residents, who'd be off the SkyTrain and on the SeaBus (or the other way around) instead of dealing with the crawl on Marine, the Lions Gate and Georgia.

[Vantage]

Originally Posted by officedweller

https://www.canadianconsultingengineer.com/awards/pdfs/B-5_PittRiverBridge&MaryHill.pdf

I wonder when that future bus lane will be put to use. The road is already paved, they'd just need to move some barriers and add some lane markings.

[FarmerHaight]

Originally Posted by chowhou

Technically those are planned to be RapidBusses not BRT. I only included the current RapidBusses for context but you're right.

If the "Inlet Line" doesn't have the Hastings leg added by 2050, I would bet the R5 will have been upgraded to BRT. Burnaby Heights may fight the taking away of parking spaces, so maybe Translink will be forced to capitulate along that stretch of Hastings. But I would be shocked if we didn't see 24/7 bus lanes on Hastings within Vancouver.

I also think we'll see significant incremental improvements to, if not true BRT on the routes of, the R4 and R6.

The growth of Metrotown, Oakridge, and UBC along the R4 route will significantly increase ridership. And while current R4 passengers may switch to the Millennium Line once the UBCx is completed, upgrading the R4 to true BRT would serve as a great relief line. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect pretty severe overcrowding on the Millennium Line as the Broadway Plan and UBC add thousands of new residents.

As for the R6, Surrey will absorb a very large portion of the region's population growth in the next 25 years. One north-south BRT will not be sufficient to handle the city's transportation needs, IMO.

[Migrant_Coconut]

It's pretty much a guarantee that 152nd gets its own RB/BRT soon after the Langley extension opens.

[chowhou]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

CNV, yes. DNV, not so much.

Cap U students, and Lower Lynn/Maplewood/Deep Cove/etc residents - until the Gold Line opens, commuting east across Vancouver to the Second Narrows is a sub-par option, especially during peak hours. It could also benefit Cap Mall shoppers and residents, who'd be off the SkyTrain and on the SeaBus (or the other way around) instead of dealing with the crawl on Marine, the Lions Gate and Georgia.

I took the 214/211/210/209 from downtown to Phibbs for years, it's a really good option actually. During the daytime it's pick-up/drop-off only on the Vancouver side (depending on direction) which makes it pretty quick. It's almost as fast as driving since there are usually very few stops between Burrard and Phibbs.

As for a Cap Mall to Downtown connection, busses currently have dedicated lanes on Georgia and Marine and queue jumping at the Lions Gate/Stanley Park Causeway. Even if the Lions Gate is absolutely buggered, a direct connection to the SeaBus would have a hard time beating taking the 236 which can stop right at the SeaBus at Lonsdale Quay loop which even the closest feasible Skytrain station (probably 1st Street) certainly cannot beat.

Originally Posted by FarmerHaight

If the "Inlet Line" doesn't have the Hastings leg added by 2050, I would bet the R5 will have been upgraded to BRT. Burnaby Heights may fight the taking away of parking spaces, so maybe Translink will be forced to capitulate along that stretch of Hastings. But I would be shocked if we didn't see 24/7 bus lanes on Hastings within Vancouver.

Yeah, as a direct connection to the Purple Line the R5 is naturally going to see a massive bump in usage, however (though I don't have the numbers) I'm not entirely sure if the R5 currently sees much congestion through Burnaby Heights.

I also think we'll see significant incremental improvements to, if not true BRT on the routes of, the R4 and R6.

The growth of Metrotown, Oakridge, and UBC along the R4 route will significantly increase ridership. And while current R4 passengers may switch to the Millennium Line once the UBCx is completed, upgrading the R4 to true BRT would serve as a great relief line. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect pretty severe overcrowding on the Millennium Line as the Broadway Plan and UBC add thousands of new residents.

The R4 is a very difficult route to create true BRT on. Realistically based on pure ridership numbers alone, 41st/49th is due for the next Skytrain expansion, but politically I think they have to wait until at least the Purple Line is built. The R6 is already close to BRT.

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

It's pretty much a guarantee that 152nd gets its own RB/BRT soon after the Langley extension opens.

As it stands today, 152nd is pretty tight for BRT, but the RB is basically official already.

[mcj]

Originally Posted by chowhou

I'm also guessing at a Port Coquitlam expansion in the next quarter decade with two stations:
Westwood-Meadowbrook
Port Coquitlam

Quarter century right? No way that's happening by the end of 2026.

[chowhou]

Originally Posted by mcj

Quarter century right? No way that's happening by the end of 2026.

Whoops yes that's what I meant.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by chowhou

I took the 214/211/210/209 from downtown to Phibbs for years, it's a really good option actually. During the daytime it's pick-up/drop-off only on the Vancouver side (depending on direction) which makes it pretty quick. It's almost as fast as driving since there are usually very few stops between Burrard and Phibbs.

As for a Cap Mall to Downtown connection, busses currently have dedicated lanes on Georgia and Marine and queue jumping at the Lions Gate/Stanley Park Causeway. Even if the Lions Gate is absolutely buggered, a direct connection to the SeaBus would have a hard time beating taking the 236 which can stop right at the SeaBus at Lonsdale Quay loop which even the closest feasible Skytrain station (probably 1st Street) certainly cannot beat.

Eh, pretty much every bus uses demand-only stops nowadays. I trust that it was fast, but Powell is a logjam now - by 2050, I highly doubt the 200s'll beat 15 minutes across the harbour and 6 minutes on the SkyTrain without bus lanes.

Right, I keep forgetting about the R2 lanes.

[chowhou]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Eh, pretty much every bus uses demand-only stops nowadays. I trust that it was fast, but Powell is a logjam now - by 2050, I highly doubt the 200s'll beat 15 minutes across the harbour and 6 minutes on the SkyTrain without bus lanes.

Right, I keep forgetting about the R2 lanes.

Bear in mind that someone living in Lynn Valley (210/209) or east of Lynn Creek (211/214) might then have to make 2 transfers they otherwise would not have to make. The SeaBus at peak hours still has a 10 minute headway so the average time to wait for one is about or a little less than 5 minutes, and the Expo Line at the current absolute maximum (and as the highest frequency Skytrain Line) has a 3-4 minute headway so the average time to wait for one is around 1-2 minutes, not to mention the time required to make your transfer.

Transfers also just kind of —.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Still better than 7-15 minutes average for a feeder bus (4-8 because the 209/10 are paired routes, but still) and then traffic, traffic, traffic. Yeah, transfers —, but often the time and resource savings offset that.

Applied to the Second Narrows, in theory passengers save a little time (and TransLink a fair amount of diesel/battery and passengers per vehicle hour) by simplifying the routes into a frequent one down Powell/McGill to the Purple Line and 2-4 feeders from Phibbs into the DNV (possibly one from Upper Lynn to Deep Cove, since the SkyTrain opens up that possibility).

[chowhou]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Still better than 7-15 minutes average for a feeder bus (4-8 because the 209/10 are paired routes, but still) and then traffic, traffic, traffic. Yeah, transfers —, but often the time and resource savings offset that.

I might be wrong, but I don't think the average 210/211-to-Downtown commuter actually has a feeder bus (what even feeds the 211/214? The 212 and 215 kind of I guess but their routes are basically along the 211 catchment). Anyone who needs a feeder bus from upper Lynn Valley would probably be better off taking the 228 to the Quay anyway. I can accept this argument for the 227 catchment, and really the 227 catchment only, but that's a very small amount of people to move a Skytrain station for. Remember, moving the Skytrain station closer to the Quay moves it away from the medium-high density mixed use area between 3rd and Keith! In my eyes, that gets priority.

Applied to the Second Narrows, in theory passengers save a little time (and TransLink a fair amount of diesel/battery and passengers per vehicle hour) by simplifying the routes into a frequent one down Powell/McGill to the Purple Line and 2-4 feeders from Phibbs into the DNV (possibly one from Upper Lynn to Deep Cove, since the SkyTrain opens up that possibility).

The general consensus as far as I know is that the Second Narrows really isn't hurting for capacity right now. The north and south ends both have bus priority queue skipping, and in both directions there's a quasi-bus lane (trafficflow-wise, the highway widens to 3 lanes at the bus priority entrances, with 2 highway lanes feeding otherwise). Given that it's generally expected right now that the purple line will be routing into Burnaby, I don't think there's much to gain by bypassing the Second Narrows with a detour over to the purple line on the south side, and 2 (!!) extra transfers for people on both ends.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by chowhou

I might be wrong, but I don't think the average 210/211-to-Downtown commuter actually has a feeder bus (what even feeds the 211/214? The 212 and 215 kind of I guess but their routes are basically along the 211 catchment). Anyone who needs a feeder bus from upper Lynn Valley would probably be better off taking the 228 to the Quay anyway. I can accept this argument for the 227 catchment, and really the 227 catchment only, but that's a very small amount of people to move a Skytrain station for. Remember, moving the Skytrain station closer to the Quay moves it away from the medium-high density mixed use area between 3rd and Keith! In my eyes, that gets priority.

The general consensus as far as I know is that the Second Narrows really isn't hurting for capacity right now. The north and south ends both have bus priority queue skipping, and in both directions there's a quasi-bus lane (trafficflow-wise, the highway widens to 3 lanes at the bus priority entrances, with 2 highway lanes feeding otherwise). Given that it's generally expected right now that the purple line will be routing into Burnaby, I don't think there's much to gain by bypassing the Second Narrows with a detour over to the purple line on the south side, and 2 (!!) extra transfers for people on both ends.

Just "bus" then: at 15 minutes peak and 30 off-peak, the average wait for a 209/210, even combined, is "only" as long as the total SeaBus/Purple Line transfer time.
And it's not just the ones going to Phibbs - it's also the connecting buses going onward to Cap U and other places, whose passengers'll have to transfer anyway; for many of them, it's more about time saved than comfort. Gotta think about the entire metro and rapid transit network, not just one neighbourhood - otherwise they might as well move Purple to Keith proper to get LGH and even more potential catchment.

Not IWMB capacity as much as total number of buses and the best use of them. AFAIK you've got basically four redundant overlapping lines through East Van to Phibbs, then they scatter in different directions (presumably running near-empty afterward); seems like those could be optimized once the SkyTrain arrives.

[chowhou]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

And it's not just the ones going to Phibbs - it's also the connecting buses going onward to Cap U and other places, whose passengers'll have to transfer anyway; for many of them, it's more about time saved than comfort. Gotta think about the entire metro and rapid transit network, not just one neighbourhood - otherwise they might as well move Purple to Keith proper to get LGH and even more potential catchment.

I am thinking about the entire metro, there just isn't a compelling case to push the Skytrain station a block south to me. As for a Central Lonsdale routing, believe me, it's enticing. I think in a perfect world it actually would be preferential to have the purple line reach Central Lonsdale. The two big issues are number one, 13th and Lonsdale has an elevation of 100m! A straight shot from Phibbs to Central Lonsdale would be almost a 3% continuous climb. A more realistic tunnel from Heywood is a 4.5% continuous climb for over 2km! LIM allegedly can feasibly do 6% grades for short distances, but I find it hard to believe that this climb would be a comfortable proposition. Secondly, there just really isn't anything between Central Lonsdale and Heywood. The density really just follows 3rd and a Moodyville station is simply far more justifiable than a "Keith-Grand Boulevard" or "Ridgeway-9th" station.

Not IWMB capacity as much as total number of buses and the best use of them. AFAIK you've got basically four redundant overlapping lines through East Van to Phibbs, then they scatter in different directions (presumably running near-empty afterward); seems like those could be optimized once the SkyTrain arrives.

I dunno, by that logic they should have already done that. I don't think your analysis that they run near-empty afterwards is correct. Certainly the 210 is a heavy hitter.