Edmonton Construction Part 14 (October 2023)

[Harrison]

Originally Posted by ciudad_del_norte

And no - not trying to say everything is perfect in Edmonton and there is no need for improvement. But I actually think that healthy growth as a relatively affordable city rather than being a prime target for distant "investment" is a better path in evolution towards the city it can be.

This right here - I'd rather not have Edmonton turn into a crazy housing market like Vancouver or even see the wild real estate price appreciation that Calgary has experienced over the last 24 months.

[Coldrsx]

If Edmonton has aspirations to be Winnipeg, sure.

[Hallsy's Toupee]

I'm in 100% agreement with Hardhatdan, ciudad, foolworm and Harrison when it comes to the record migration to this city and the resulting real estate market. On top of that are the new zoning bylaws which should help matters. We are in a great position as a city and we are playing our cards right - let's not bugger it up!

[Hardhatdan]

Originally Posted by Coldrsx

Perhaps or perhaps it is simply providing housing to people (a good thing), but being largely ignored by investment $$$ (blessing and curse). What does that say about Edmonton, its overall desirability and its ability to attract capital?

What capital is missing sweetheart?

[Hardhatdan]

Originally Posted by Coldrsx

If Edmonton has aspirations to be Winnipeg, sure.

You forget how to read again?
Maybe you're mad things are going well without you... I dunno.

[Coldrsx]

A market of Edmonton's size with that sort of population influx should have 15 cranes up today in central Edmonton (see Ottawa, Calgary, Halifax).

However, given the depressed er cheap er affordable housing market, it has 1/3 of that.

Given the cost to build, replacement costs and market rents/saleable $/sqft and overall market demand for more urban product, it's not attracting the capital $$$ due to the low ROI, opportunity cost and lack of buyers/investors/interested parties.

This is changing, but Edmonton has a looooooooooong way to climb to see the activity it should be seeing.

[Coldrsx]

Originally Posted by Hardhatdan

You forget how to read again?
Maybe you're mad things are going well without you... I dunno.

[YEG-Urbanist]

Originally Posted by CMD UW

Kinda tough to alter how development economics work unless we want to have our government subsidize a lot more.

The El Mirador was a unique little asset, yes. But I would argue that the majority of the public didn't think much of it other then being a small older apartment building just off Jasper Avenue. It did not have the 'presence' or 'notoriety' that other older buildings had such as the Tegler Building, etc. The impact of its loss was relatively minor in the grand scheme of things. And this is from someone who spent 10-years repositioning maaaany heritage buildings in this City.

The impact of its loss was relatively minor in the grand scheme of things.

This way of thinking is the reason North American cities have lost so many of its heritage buildings, specifically on the prairies. Yes, maybe individually, these buildings have little significance. However as they slowly get demolished, there is a significant impact.

Yes, I fully understand wood structures do not last as long as brick or concrete and are more costly to maintain. The problem is, there are no consequences for property owners who choose not to maintain these buildings. They are left to deteriorate to the point, where there is often no other choice but to tear them down.

If building owners carried out proper preventative maintenance programs, there would be no need for these buildings to be torn down in the first place.

[Coldrsx]

Bingo.

[Hardhatdan]

Originally Posted by Coldrsx

A market of Edmonton's size with that sort of population influx should have 15 cranes up today in central Edmonton (see Ottawa, Calgary, Halifax).

However, given the depressed er cheap er affordable housing market, it has 1/3 of that.

Given the cost to build, replacement costs and market rents/saleable $/sqft and overall market demand for more urban product, it's not attracting the capital $$$ due to the low ROI, opportunity cost and lack of buyers/investors/interested parties.

This is changing, but Edmonton has a looooooooooong way to climb to see the activity it should be seeing.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/...sing-hopes-for-market-comeback-1.7103604

People need affordable homes first, not tower crane counts. Developers need interest rates to retreat and the last of the post pandemic hangover to fade away. It always takes longer here.

[Hardhatdan]

Originally Posted by Coldrsx

Bingo.

But that's not what you argued, you didn't once say to punish the owner that let it rot beyond repair, you said to force the buyer and new developer to take on the burden of that previous owner to be allowed to build their new project. Those are two completely different things.
Then you also argue Edmonton is way behind on development, but want to make it more burdensome.

I think you want it all and you want it now.

[Coldrsx]

Originally Posted by Hardhatdan

But that's not what you argued, you didn't once say to punish the owner that let it rot beyond repair, you said to force the buyer and new developer to take on the burden of that previous owner to be allowed to build their new project. Those are two completely different things.
Then you also argue Edmonton is way behind on development, but want to make it more burdensome.

I think you want it all and you want it now.

It's not mutually exclusive or one size fits all, but there are options, tools and opportunities to save character buildings, incentivize other sites by way of density, heritage, height, FAR transfers and bonusing to provide real economic drivers, backstops and incentives.

As we have seen, Edmonton has been quite progressive when it comes to LUB reform and zoning initiatives, but a failure on the heritage preservation front and working towards complete streets to date.

I have a higher bar and expectations for that fair city; I don't believe that they are unrealistic, overly punitive and would actually drive value far beyond the all mighty dollar.

I want more and want it yesterday for a city that has so much unrealized potential, yes, yes I do.

[Airboy]

Originally Posted by YEG-Urbanist

The impact of its loss was relatively minor in the grand scheme of things.

This way of thinking is the reason North American cities have lost so many of its heritage buildings, specifically on the prairies. Yes, maybe individually, these buildings have little significance. However as they slowly get demolished, there is a significant impact.

Yes, I fully understand wood structures do not last as long as brick or concrete and are more costly to maintain. The problem is, there are no consequences for property owners who choose not to maintain these buildings. They are left to deteriorate to the point, where there is often no other choice but to tear them down.

If building owners carried out proper preventative maintenance programs, there would be no need for these buildings to be torn down in the first place.

Regrettably the first cuts to budgets are always maintenance.

[Airboy]

I agree with Cold that we should see more cranes but constraints with Labour shortages are just one major factor from not having more on the go. Cost increases in products is not holding other projects up.

Looking at all my projects right now, all are short trades.

Heard the latests vacancy rates and we should have more residential towers on the go. Maybe the short supply is going to push more. Rent rates seem to be on par with other cities.

Another good sign in the economy is the large increase in people entering the trades. Stat canada indicates that people entering apprenticeship programs have jumped substantially.
There has always been some level of pessimism in Edmonton, and that hurts us more. Back in the 70s and early 80s we saw the excitement but that died and never came back. We have stirrings of that ( a tingling) but just as we start to see some action something always shuts it down.

There is excitement in the construction industry right now ( or maybe its me and this new job).but how long that last is really a mystery. I'm just happy I am busy for 5 more years. then maybe retirement and all you young F can take over.

[foolworm]

Originally Posted by Coldrsx

If Edmonton has aspirations to be Winnipeg, sure.

If people don't want affordability, i.e. they are looking for places to spend money rather than save it, they can vote with their feet and head for for flashier, glitzier cities -- Canada has plenty of those.

For now the people seem to keep coming. I can only hope Edmonton is able to accommodate the influx without eroding its strengths and appeals by driving up prices and overburdening municipal services.

Ironically the City government is in a precarious financial position as tax revenues have not been able to keep up with growth-induced needs.

[Hardhatdan]

Originally Posted by Slide

How did Calgary vacancy drop so much so fast? Are so many buildings slated for residential conversion that it has caused that much of an impact, or is it a huge amount of backfilling of office space? or both? What's the main driver?

That's not office vacancy. Office vacancy is still somewhere around 25-30% I guess depending on what method is used.

[Coldrsx]

Falcon and Parks

https://www.realtor.ca/real-estate/26349785/9449-101-st-nw-edmonton-rossdale

[Black Star]

^ Beauty....

[JSS1974]

Originally Posted by Coldrsx

If Edmonton has aspirations to be Winnipeg, sure.

No we want to be Calgary!

[itom 987]

Originally Posted by Harrison

This right here - I'd rather not have Edmonton turn into a crazy housing market like Vancouver or even see the wild real estate price appreciation that Calgary has experienced over the last 24 months.

Developers build nice things during crazy runs though.