[Saint John] Uptown Thread

[cdnguys]

Originally Posted by DyAm00394

https://tj.news/saint-john-south/international-french-private-school-wont-open-in-market-square

I’m sure they have a location scoped out by now, and by offering refunds to the NB families means it won’t be SJ. My guess is Charlottetown or Halifax.

[DyAm00394]

Originally Posted by cdnguys

I’m sure they have a location scoped out by now, and by offering refunds to the NB families means it won’t be SJ. My guess is Charlottetown or Halifax.

My thoughts exactly. Refunding the NB families and not giving them the option to stay enrolled in the new location must mean it won't be in New Brunswick anymore. If it was they would have given them the option like the families from France.

[sailor734]

Originally Posted by DyAm00394

My thoughts exactly. Refunding the NB families and not giving them the option to stay enrolled in the new location must mean it won't be in New Brunswick anymore. If it was they would have given them the option like the families from France.

This last minute unforeseen cost ballooning makes you wonder about the condition of Market Square doesn't it? I know they have had persistent roof leaking issues. Maybe that have also had previously hidden structural or mold damage from the water ingress?

[KnoxfordGuy]

When did Genesys close?

[Helladog]

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

Seriously, it should be 30 storeys or more!

I think it could end up being a good thing that the project fell through... 12 storeys wasn't enough. Think of what the views could be there from 13-30+ storeys up, they'd be nothing short of amazing.

Moreover, think about the possibilities if Brunswick Square beside it got built up to its 36 storey potential. Wouldn't have to worry about Brunswick Square being a dead mall anymore if there were 25 storeys of residential units on top of it.





Btw, as an aside, I saw you posted about the failed Fort Dufferin three tower condo development that fell through on a different forum way back in 2007

think you could shed some light about what happened there in the main Saint John thread? I heard it was just traffic concerns that put the kibosh on it, but another poster said it was due to erosion? Any clarification on what exactly happened there would be much appreciated. Thanks

I’m not sure what happened but I think DarkHarbour summed it up pretty well. I may have a rendering around somewhere; I do have a rendering of the Brunswick Square addition:

[cdnguys]

Originally Posted by KnoxfordGuy

When did Genesys close?

They only left building. They work from home now and bought memberships at UStation

[sailor734]

Originally Posted by cdnguys

They only left building. They work from home now and nought memberships at UStation

Would the building lend itself to a residential conversion? I know that is happening more frequently since Covid and the whole work from home thing hanging on. One of the '70's era office towers in Halifax is undergoing this I think.

However, from what I have read there can be challenges in plumbing/electrical retrofits and in unit design to avoid lack of outside walls/windows in the central core of the building. Buildings designed for office space don't always make good residential spaces.

[cdnguys]

Originally Posted by sailor734

Would the building lend itself to a residential conversion? I know that is happening more frequently since Covid and the whole work from home thing hanging on. One of the '70's era office towers in Halifax is undergoing this I think.

However, from what I have read there can be challenges in plumbing/electrical retrofits and in unit design to avoid lack of outside walls/windows in the central core of the building. Buildings designed for office space don't always make good residential spaces.

It would make a nicer Service Canada location than Agar Place. The province is moving a huge contingent out of Agar Place and into City Hall. Maybe Agar shoe box can be torn down and owners can build a 3rd or 4th apartment building to add to their Hospital Hill project

[DyAm00394]

A new CBC audio interview with Envision SJ interim CEO about the canceled French Private school. https://www.cbc.ca/listen/live-radio/1-2...ate-francophone-school-project-abandoned

[darkharbour]

Re: the old Fort Dufferin proposal

A condominium development that could see as many as 600 units spring up in the Fort Dufferin area on the west side was unanimously endorsed.

Rick Turner of Hughes Surveys & Consultants spoke in favour of the project, which he said could generate as much as $2 million per year in property taxes.

Turner explained that the Toronto developer he was representing planned to build one-, two- and three-bedroom units in three phases on a 20-acre parcel of land.

The Fort Dufferin proposal could see three high-rise buildings, up to 12 storeys tall, built at the coastal end of City Line and next to the Partridge Island breakwater. The 6.72-hectare site could eventually tie into Harbour Passage and water taxis connecting to the uptown and Partridge Island.

There is a tiny colour rendering in one of the threads somewhere (provided the image host is still working), but I dove back into the Council packet from 2008 and found these from the rezoning application:






On a related note, this was a strange time in the city, including the year Trump came to speak at Habrour Station and we were all being fed the idea that a second Lepreau reactor, second refinery, LNG terminal, etc. were going to make Saint John the next big thing.

[sailor734]

Originally Posted by darkharbour

Re: the old Fort Dufferin proposal



There is a tiny colour rendering in one of the threads somewhere (provided the image host is still working), but I dove back into the Council packet from 2008 and found these from the rezoning application:






On a related note, this was a strange time in the city, including the year Trump came to speak at Habrour Station and we were all being fed the idea that a second Lepreau reactor, second refinery, LNG terminal, etc. were going to make Saint John the next big thing.

I remember back when this was happening. As soon as I read "water taxi's" my "it's all hype and flim flam" detector went off

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by sailor734

I remember back when this was happening. As soon as I read "water taxi's" my "it's all hype and flim flam" detector went off

Mel Norton brought up the water taxis and ferries ideas before too. Never heard him described as a pie-in-the-sky idealist. I don’t get why y’all are so skeptical of how ferries or water taxies would work. This is the port city isn’t it?

Most port cities have things like ferries and water taxies, and have tall buildings built up around their harbour fronts to take advantage of the views. Saint John seems to have a bad case of reverse exceptionalism.

It’s really a shame that Fort Dufferin proposal fell through. Hopefully something transformational can still get developed there. It’s a tremendous location, and I’d still like to see some information backing up the erosion claims.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by Helladog

I’m not sure what happened but I think DarkHarbour summed it up pretty well. I may have a rendering around somewhere; I do have a rendering of the Brunswick Square addition:

Thanks very much for posting these, and thanks to DarkHarbour as well for posting the Fort Dufferin renderings. Both projects would have been tremendous improvements for the city, and both sites remain huge development opportunities for Saint John.

Building up Brunswick Square to its 36 storey potential just makes sense, and on so many levels. If 50% or more of the new 36 storey building was to become residential, the shopping on the lower levels would get a significant boost, and we’d see more business and restaurants open up to serve the new niche market living above them.

Furthermore, if more 10-30+ builds started getting funding and approval throughout the central peninsula, retail businesses and restaurants will benefit immensely from all the people who can walk, ride a bike, or take an extremely short bus ride (since parking is constantly talked about as a reason for why people don't shop Uptown as much as they used to).

None of this can happen overnight, or simply by wishing it will happen, but it can be developed as a long term strategy and priority for the city, and is something that is absolutely achievable within a few decades with the right strategy faithfully executed. Larger scale developers can be convinced to invest in the Saint John skyline, but the city has to be more proactive in its efforts to attract this investment.

[RaginRonic]

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

Thanks very much for posting these, and thanks to DarkHarbour as well for posting the Fort Dufferin renderings. Both projects would have been tremendous improvements for the city, and both sites remain huge development opportunities for Saint John.

Building up Brunswick Square to its 36 storey potential just makes sense, and on so many levels. If 50% or more of the new 36 storey building was to become residential, the shopping on the lower levels would get a significant boost, and we’d see more business and restaurants open up to serve the new niche market living above them.

Furthermore, if more 10-30+ builds started getting funding and approval throughout the central peninsula, retail businesses and restaurants will benefit immensely from all the people who can walk, ride a bike, or take an extremely short bus ride (since parking is constantly talked about as a reason for why people don't shop Uptown as much as they used to).

None of this can happen overnight, or simply by wishing it will happen, but it can be developed as a long term strategy and priority for the city, and is something that is absolutely achievable within a few decades with the right strategy faithfully executed. Larger scale developers can be convinced to invest in the Saint John skyline, but the city has to be more proactive in its efforts to attract this investment.

I'd only support that with one slight change....the top floor must be for an observation deck/restaurant business open to all the public. The view of Saint John from there has GOT to be breathtaking.

=)

[Pugsley]

Good day all!

Is it me, or has the number of commercial apartment buildings in the Peninsula up for sale skyrocketed in the past few weeks? Every so often I take a look to see what commercial buildings are up for sale. Last time it was around Christmas. Today, there has to be 5X the number since then...sitting at 38 listings on MLS.

Property tax hikes? Older owners looking to grab some cash? Anyone else have a theory or is this normal?

[sailor734]

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

Mel Norton brought up the water taxis and ferries ideas before too. Never heard him described as a pie-in-the-sky idealist. I don’t get why y’all are so skeptical of how ferries or water taxies would work. This is the port city isn’t it?

Most port cities have things like ferries and water taxies, and have tall buildings built up around their harbour fronts to take advantage of the views. Saint John seems to have a bad case of reverse exceptionalism.

It’s really a shame that Fort Dufferin proposal fell through. Hopefully something transformational can still get developed there. It’s a tremendous location, and I’d still like to see some information backing up the erosion claims.

Do you know anything at all about Saint John Harbour from a marine perspective? It's a pretty unfriendly place for small craft. Huge tides and powerful currents (especially in the spring during the river's freshet when the falls run out hard 24/7) The harbour is wide open to a 40 mile fetch when the wind is out of the south or even the prevailing Southwesterlies can curl around Partridge Is if it blows hard enough...... and it can get quite rough at times. The 20-28 foot tidal range alone would make terminal design and construction very challenging/expensive. We also have virtually no public access to the water on the westside as the port is currently configured and security requirements post 9/11 would complicate building public access to a passenger terminal. And besides, who are the people that would ride this service from the lower westside to the uptown? I couldn't see the numbers of potential passengers ever be high enough to justify the costs

Could it be done?.......sure, with enough money......but any ferry or water taxi service would require a huge upfront capital investment and large ongoing operating subsidies....public money that would be far better spent in a wide variety of other areas. If there actually was need to transport people on this route you could probably run a dedicated express bus service on a continuous loop from the foot of King St. West to the foot of King uptown for a fraction of the cost.

[RaginRonic]

Originally Posted by sailor734

Do you know anything at all about Saint John Harbour from a marine perspective? It's a pretty unfriendly place for small craft. Huge tides and powerful currents (especially in the spring during the river's freshet when the falls run out hard 24/7) The harbour is wide open to a 40 mile fetch when the wind is out of the south or even the prevailing Southwesterlies can curl around Partridge Is if it blows hard enough...... and it can get quite rough at times. The 20-28 foot tidal range alone would make terminal design and construction very challenging/expensive. We also have virtually no public access to the water on the westside as the port is currently configured and security requirements post 9/11 would complicate building public access to a passenger terminal. And besides, who are the people that would ride this service from the lower westside to the uptown? I couldn't see the numbers of potential passengers ever be high enough to justify the costs

Could it be done?.......sure, with enough money......but any ferry or water taxi service would require a huge upfront capital investment and large ongoing operating subsidies....public money that would be far better spent in a wide variety of other areas. If there actually was need to transport people on this route you could probably run a dedicated express bus service on a continuous loop from the foot of King St. West to the foot of King uptown for a fraction of the cost.

https://maps.app.goo.gl/zWcJkW7D4GNuFks99

Could a ferry terminal go in this spot?

[cdnguys]

Originally Posted by RaginRonic

https://maps.app.goo.gl/zWcJkW7D4GNuFks99

Could a ferry terminal go in this spot?

The current from river falling into harbour twice a day would make it unsafe. I’d watch powerful tugboats making their way towards the falls and at times seems like they are hardly moving. The reality is with the west side port now one big parcel of land occupying most of the west side on inner harbour and lacking “slips” from years ago, a ferry like you’d see in Halifax is not feasible. I’d rather devote attention to a ferry to Partridge Island and develop that as a tourist attraction.

[sailor734]

Originally Posted by cdnguys

The current from river falling into harbour twice a day would make it unsafe. I’d watch powerful tugboats making their way towards the falls and at times seems like they are hardly moving. The reality is with the west side port now one big parcel of land occupying most of the west side on inner harbour and lacking “slips” from years ago, a ferry like you’d see in Halifax is not feasible. I’d rather devote attention to a ferry to Partridge Island and develop that as a tourist attraction.

It's not just about the harbour conditions and access (although they certainly matter) I just can't see any realistic scenario where demand for foot traffic from the lower westside to the uptown would ever reach the level to make such a service viable.

[gtsoc]

Originally Posted by cdnguys

I’m sure they have a location scoped out by now, and by offering refunds to the NB families means it won’t be SJ. My guess is Charlottetown or Halifax.

Halifax it is.

https://www.lifpa-donbosco-halifax.com/