Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Acajack

François Legault is often said to be obsessed with Quebec "catching up" to Ontario. Some stats to put that in perspective.

https://www.lapresse.ca/dialogue/2024-02...hp?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

If he wants to catch up then he should remove the economic (linguistic) shackles from Montreal. Instead, he is doubling down......

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Yes. I see a lot of good choices by Quebec which have lowered GDP but increased quality of life. The language allows this despite being in a open market with the rest of Canada and nearly so with the US. (If Ontario copied everything and matched tax rates the brain drain would be substantial)

All that said, the best way to give Quebec the real option of sovereignty is to catch up economically. If you take away equalization there are still a lot of economic reasons for the staus quo but the argument is certainly different.

Have those choices actually lowered GDP or simply made it grow a bit more slowly? (While arguably paying off on other fronts.)

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Have those choices actually lowered GDP or simply made it grow a bit more slowly? (While arguably paying off on other fronts.)

Slower growth ends up with lower GDP. Like a high fee mutual fund when you take away 1% a year in growth it compounds.

Of course the language and independance threat actually destroyed a lot of GDP especially if you consider secondary effects. The Expos are probably still in Montreal with all the tourism and taxes that would bring in if banks still had HQ in Montreal. Though some say this was an inevitable flight to Toronto anyway.

Also despite right wing economic orthodoxy it's also not always clear every policy lowers growth. Low cost daycare (even assuming the higher taxes to pay for it) seems to have increased labour force participation and paid for itself (with leakage to Feds of course). But overall it's clear higher taxes and a bloated public sector do impede growth.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Slower growth ends up with lower GDP. Like a high fee mutual fund when you take away 1% a year in growth it compounds.

Of course the language and independance threat actually destroyed a lot of GDP especially if you consider secondary effects. The Expos are probably still in Montreal with all the tourism and taxes that would bring in if banks still had HQ in Montreal. Though some say this was an inevitable flight to Toronto anyway.

Also despite right wing economic orthodoxy it's also not always clear every policy lowers growth. Low cost daycare (even assuming the higher taxes to pay for it) seems to have increased labour force participation and paid for itself (with leakage to Feds of course). But overall it's clear higher taxes and a bloated public sector do impede growth.

I think we have a lot of evidence right now that high growth in the GTA and Lower Mainland BC has not necessarily produced positive outcomes for the average person.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I think we have a lot of evidence right now that high growth in the GTA and Lower Mainland BC has not necessarily produced positive outcomes for the average person.

GDP per capita is what matters for personal well being. This has stagnated but Genz Z whining aside there is no argument we are not better off than 20 30 years ago. Ask someone 60 or 70 what it was like to be a high school or college graduate in Montreal when they were 20. The vacations clothes, food and housing comforts we enjoy are really unapparelled.

[ToxiK]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

If he wants to catch up then he should remove the economic (linguistic) shackles from Montreal. Instead, he is doubling down......

New Brunswick doesn't have the linguistic "shackles" that Québec supposedly has, and it still has a lower economic situation than Ontario (or Québec).

[harls]

Originally Posted by ToxiK

New Brunswick doesn't have the linguistic "shackles" that Québec supposedly has, and it still has a lower economic situation than Ontario (or Québec).

There are also less people in New Brunswick than all of Québec City Metro..

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by ToxiK

New Brunswick doesn't have the linguistic "shackles" that Québec supposedly has, and it still has a lower economic situation than Ontario (or Québec).

Also, when MonctonRad talks about Montreal freed of economic "shackles" he means a Montreal where English can flourish unfettered and dominate. Which would make it a lot more like... Toronto.

And based on what the article says, why would we want that?

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by ToxiK

New Brunswick doesn't have the linguistic "shackles" that Québec supposedly has, and it still has a lower economic situation than Ontario (or Québec).

GDP is obviously a bit more complicated than just language. Certainly language policies are a drag on Montreal's growth but are a strategic decision. It is possible to have a very strong French dominated/only economy.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

GDP per capita is what matters for personal well being. This has stagnated but Genz Z whining aside there is no argument we are not better off than 20 30 years ago. Ask someone 60 or 70 what it was like to be a high school or college graduate in Montreal when they were 20. The vacations clothes, food and housing comforts we enjoy are really unapparelled.

But we're not discussing relative to decades ago in the same place. We all agree that Montreal today is better than it was for the average person back then. Though are Toronto and Vancouver better for the average person today than they were 20-30-40 years ago? Certain things are better for sure but are they Toronto- or Vancouver-dependent things or global phenomena? Are the Toronto- and Vancouver-dependent things better or worse today?

And are they better or worse in those cities than in Montreal today? Does the couple thousand dollars more in per capita GDP or less in taxes make things overwhelmingly better for Torontonians and Vancouverites in 2024 compared to the lot in life of Montrealers?

That is the question.

[mousquet]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

GDP per capita is what matters for personal well being.

It's a significant figure, still only very partial, incomplete to assess the actual standard of living of a population.

UN HDI is a better, more sophisticated method in that matter of measuring quality of life, because it takes more data/parameters into account.

And when environmental constraints get in the calculation of this whole thing, Canada and the US downright get lost in the 3rd world (lol), because only Arab oil monarchies perform worse than they do when it comes to greenhouse gas emissions per capita and their environmental regulations are rather poor anyway.
See if you don't believe it.
This is going to hurt your Canadian pride.

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by Acajack

And are they better or worse in those cities than in Montreal today? Does the couple thousand dollars more in per capita GDP or less in taxes make things overwhelmingly better for Torontonians and Vancouverites in 2024 compared to the lot in life of Montrealers?

That is the question.

I dunno.

The proof is in the pudding. We are still a country with free borders and the right to move around the country at will. You don't have to apply for a visa or even set up a new bank account. There is a language barrier, yes, but if things were so bad in Toronto and Vancouver, many people would spend half a year becoming fluent in French and make the jump to Montreal. Only a very small number of people make that move, and there are still Montrealers moving to Toronto and Vancouver. So either things aren't that bad here, or things aren't that great there, or both.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

I dunno.

The proof is in the pudding. We are still a country with free borders and the right to move around the country at will. You don't have to apply for a visa or even set up a new bank account. There is a language barrier, yes, but if things were so bad in Toronto and Vancouver, many people would spend half a year becoming fluent in French and make the jump to Montreal. Only a very small number of people make that move, and there are still Montrealers moving to Toronto and Vancouver. So either things aren't that bad here, or things aren't that great there, or both.

Does the same argument hold for those living on reserves without potable water? While the barriers to moving aren't as great there is still a lot of inertia. Especially in Quebec because of language and culture.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

I dunno.

The proof is in the pudding. We are still a country with free borders and the right to move around the country at will. You don't have to apply for a visa or even set up a new bank account. There is a language barrier, yes, but if things were so bad in Toronto and Vancouver, many people would spend half a year becoming fluent in French and make the jump to Montreal. Only a very small number of people make that move, and there are still Montrealers moving to Toronto and Vancouver. So either things aren't that bad here, or things aren't that great there, or both.

I think language is a bigger barrier than you concede. Have you ever tried to learn a new language from the yes-no-toaster level (which I imagine is the level of French of most ROCers) to somewhere where you could easily function in daily tasks, let alone actually accomplish professional work in that language? That's in addition to the fact that the French language also comes with psychological (and not just practical) barriers for English-speaking Canadians.

And in any event, the quality of life and standard of living differences between Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver aren't so great that there is a huge impetus to move between them. So add the language hassles and hang-ups it's not surprising ROCers aren't flocking to Montreal. Note also that people who move from Montreal to the ROC tend to be non-francophones. So language and cultural hang-ups likely factor into that a lot as well.

[Acajack]

To be clear, I don't think Montreal and Quebec in general are doing so awesome that ROCers are going to beat down our doors to come here. I just think that things are easily good enough relative to the better places in the ROC that the vast of majority people will stay put and make a go of it here.

The existence of the Franco-Ontarian community and of Franco-American communities in the northeastern US are largely due to the fact that Quebec's economy sucked for a couple of centuries and hundreds of thousands of people left for better opportunities outside Quebec.

That type of phenomenon appears to be over for the foreseeable future.

A form of inertia, as YOWetal refers to it.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Also, when MonctonRad talks about Montreal freed of economic "shackles" he means a Montreal where English can flourish unfettered and dominate. Which would make it a lot more like... Toronto.

Unfettered yes. Dominant (as in French being subservient), no.

Somethin a bit more like Moncton, where the two linguistic communities exist side by side in relative harmony, The French are dominant in the political, government and cultural realms, the English are dominant in the economic realm (and generally in day to day life). It seems to work here.

Note, I expect French to be dominant in day to day life in Montreal.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Unfettered yes. Dominant (as in French being subservient), no.

Somethin a bit more like Moncton, where the two linguistic communities exist side by side in relative harmony, The French are dominant in the political, government and cultural realms, the English are dominant in the economic realm (and generally in day to day life). It seems to work here.

Note, I expect French to be dominant in day to day life in Montreal.

I know you don't mean French being subservient to English again, but in practice that's what would happen eventually. Kind of like two wolves voting with a lamb on what's for dinner.

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I think language is a bigger barrier than you concede. Have you ever tried to learn a new language from the yes-no-toaster level (which I imagine is the level of French of most ROCers) to somewhere where you could easily function in daily tasks, let alone actually accomplish professional work in that language? That's in addition to the fact that the French language also comes with psychological (and not just practical) barriers for English-speaking Canadians.

And in any event, the quality of life and standard of living differences between Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver aren't so great that there is a huge impetus to move between them. So add the language hassles and hang-ups it's not surprising ROCers aren't flocking to Montreal. Note also that people who move from Montreal to the ROC tend to be non-francophones. So language and cultural hang-ups likely factor into that a lot as well.

Yes I have, although not French. My French is lousy, but I honestly think that if I spent 6 weeks of intensive work improving it, I could probably speak on a semi-professional level. My sister had the same competency as I did, did just that, and is now fluent enough that her company gave her all the Quebec files/contracts, so she is doing a lot of professional communications in French. Nevertheless, she's still in Toronto.

The other thing to keep in mind is that over half of Torontonians and Vancouverites came from somewhere else so they can speak another language, and their children often can too. Very often, they come from countries where you need three languages to navigate fully around society. Languages are kind of like having children; it gets progressively easier to master when you add another one. For many of these people, learning yet another language is not a big deal, but there has to be a clear, identifiable need.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

Yes I have, although not French. My French is lousy, but I honestly think that if I spent 6 weeks of intensive work improving it, I could probably speak on a semi-professional level. My sister had the same competency as I did, did just that, and is now fluent enough that her company gave her all the Quebec files/contracts, so she is doing a lot of professional communications in French. Nevertheless, she's still in Toronto.

The other thing to keep in mind is that over half of Torontonians and Vancouverites came from somewhere else so they can speak another language, and their children often can too. Very often, they come from countries where you need three languages to navigate fully around society. Languages are kind of like having children; it gets progressively easier to master when you add another one. For many of these people, learning yet another language is not a big deal, but there has to be a clear, identifiable need.

As I said, I don't think the differences between Toronto-Vancouver vs Montreal are great enough to warrant the hassle for the average person. There are also other cities in the ROC that are "good enough" and offer a better cost-benefit lifestyle than TOR-VAN.

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by Acajack

To be clear, I don't think Montreal and Quebec in general are doing so awesome that ROCers are going to beat down our doors to come here. I just think that things are easily good enough relative to the better places in the ROC that the vast of majority people will stay put and make a go of it here.

The existence of the Franco-Ontarian community and of Franco-American communities in the northeastern US are largely due to the fact that Quebec's economy sucked for a couple of centuries and hundreds of thousands of people left for better opportunities outside Quebec.

That type of phenomenon appears to be over for the foreseeable future.

A form of inertia, as YOWetal refers to it.

That phenomenon is over because there's no way that Quebec would continue to slip behind the rest of Canada (or Ontario) economically forever. Things tend to equilibrate, economically, especially within a country despite language and cultural barriers.

Like can you imagine if you could pay a worker $30,000 to make the same widget in St-Jean-sur-Richelieu that you had to pay a worker $80,000 to make in Chatham?

Here on SSP, we tend to be kind of rah-rah about our respective home provinces, but the truth is that all provinces (and actually most western countries) all kind of play catch up with one another, and no one place is head-over-heels better than somewhere else in terms of talent, leadership, economic practices or even location. Within Canada, we've seen Atlantic Canada and Quebec come up from behind in the last decade, while places like Alberta and Saskatchewan, that seemed like they had left us all for dust in the early 2000s, are stuck in a holding pattern.

Whether we're talking about cities or provinces, sometimes places are up, and sometimes places are down, but they're never down forever, and they're never out.