Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

The Acadians remained for years on those infamous prison-boats moored in Boston and other US cities. The British government could have freed them and repatriated them to Acadia. They didn't. Even in non-democratic 18th century Europe, the fate of the Acadians imprisoned on boats for years was considered a disgrace for England in the eyes of European public opinion.

British prison ships were notorious during the Revolutionary War, but I've not heard of years-long detentions of Acadians in Boston. I understood that they were dispersed among the various east coast colonies. Virginia refused to allow Acadians to disembark, and I believe they spent months aboard the ships until being sent to camps in the UK, eventually ending up in France soveral years later.

[New Brisavoine]

Speaking of referendum... this from the new Catholic prime minister of Northern Ireland (the mere fact of writing that seems rather surreal):

Michelle O'Neill Says There Will Be A Referendum On Irish Unity Within 10 Years

Huffington Post
04/02/2024

Northern Ireland faces "a decade of opportunity", according to the new first minister.

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/m...hin-10-years_uk_65bea5ece4b0102bd2d95f30

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

British prison ships were notorious during the Revolutionary War, but I've not heard of years-long detentions of Acadians in Boston. I understood that they were dispersed among the various east coast colonies. Virginia refused to allow Acadians to disembark, and I believe they spent months aboard the ships until being sent to camps in the UK, eventually ending up in France soveral years later.

Indeed.

The use of the term "prison ships" is needlessly provocative. Acadians were never interred in prison ships. They certainly may have been detained aboard ships for an extended period of time, but, this was due to local governments refusing to allow disembarkation rather than any malfeasance of the British Crown. I think New Brisavoine should expand the breadth of historical references that he sources. I detect a certain amount of bias on his part.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Speaking of referendum... this from the new Catholic prime minister of Northern Ireland (the mere fact of writing that seems rather surreal):

The glee with which New Brisavoine welcomes the possibility of referenda in English speaking jurisdictions around the world (be it Canada, Northern Ireland or Scotland) speaks volumes regarding his anglophobia rather than anything else.

Is there a particular reason why you hate the English so much? Did an unruly Mancunian once kick your dog on the way to a soccer match in Paris????

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Indeed.

The use of the term "prison ships" is needlessly provocative. Acadians were never interred in prison ships. They certainly may have been detained aboard ships for an extended period of time, but, this was due to local governments refusing to allow disembarkation rather than any malfeasance of the British Crown. I think New Brisavoine should expand the breadth of historical references that he sources. I detect a certain amount of bias on his part.

At least at the moment of deportation Acadiens were generally not put on prison ships. More like small dories. Which explains why about half of them drowned.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Acajack

At least at the moment of deportation Acadiens were generally not put on prison ships. More like small dories. Which explains why about half of them drowned.

Indeed. I am in no way denying the inhumanity of the deportation, or the fact that hundreds if not thousands died, it's just that like in all things historical, there are two sides to the storey. New Brisavoine has a particularly biased viewpoint which deserves some rebuttal (or clarification).

[New Brisavoine]

^^You can argue all you like, but if the "British Crown" had been the angel you pretend they were, and all was due to pesky local commanders and governors who acted independently from London, then surely when the "British Crown" would have heard of the Acadians' fate, they would have rescinded all local orders and allowed these peaceful people to return to their homes in Acadia unmolested. They didn't, and it speaks volumes.

The "British Crown" served the same treatment to the Irish and the Highland Scots, and later to the Boers, so it's not just a random glitch.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

The glee with which New Brisavoine welcomes the possibility of referenda in English speaking jurisdictions around the world

This is top news in Le Devoir today. So it's being noticed in Québec too.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

The "British Crown" served the same treatment to the Irish and the Highland Scots, and later to the Boers, so it's not just a random glitch.

We won't mention the treatment of the Huguenots by the French Crown and the Catholic Church (largely murdered or forcefully expelled), and, likewise France's lost century (between the Revolution and the Franco-Prussian War). Just how many millions of people were guillotined, starved to death or murdered in multiple insurrections, communes and Napoleon's ill conceived attempts at European conquest again???

Far, far more than in any English misadventure over the same period of time..........

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

We won't mention the treatment of the Huguenots by the French Crown and the Catholic Church (largely murdered or forcefully expelled), and, likewise France's lost century (between the Revolution and the Franco-Prussian War). Just how many millions of people were guillotined, starved to death or murdered in multiple insurrections, communes and Napoleon's ill conceived attempts at European conquest again???

Far, far more than in any English misadventure over the same period of time..........

Yeah it was cool for many years to be proud of the domination of ones ancesstors. Now it's cooler to commiserate about the domination by the evil colonizers, invaders etc. Personally find both attitudes tiresome. English Canada has fewer and fewer people who have any connection with any of this.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

We won't mention the treatment of the Huguenots by the French Crown and the Catholic Church (largely murdered or forcefully expelled), and, likewise France's lost century (between the Revolution and the Franco-Prussian War). Just how many millions of people were guillotined, starved to death or murdered in multiple insurrections, communes and Napoleon's ill conceived attempts at European conquest again???

Far, far more than in any English misadventure over the same period of time..........

What does it have to do with Québec or Canada?

Also, you may want to revise your history. Your so-called "France's lost century" was one of great industrial, scientific, infrastructure and health progress for France. I'm sure many countries would love to have such "lost centuries".















I know it's a fact that is often overlooked in the Anglophone world, but France was the 3rd country that started the Industrial Revolution (after England and Belgium), and by the 1860s was the largest industrial power in Europe after the UK (it is only after 1870 that German industrialization started in earnest). France had a larger manufacturing sector than the US until the 1860s. Only Great Britain really was a larger industrial power.

The French GDP per capita also rose a lot after the end of the Napoleonic Wars, at a rate it had never experienced in previous centuries. The economic boom was especially strong under the 2nd Empire (1852-1870). In total, the British economy grew more, but the GDP per capita of France grew on par with the GDP per capita of Great Britain and Belgium, because the French population had a much smaller growth of rate than these countries.

If you're looking for lost centuries, you'd have to look more towards Spain, or Italy, or China, or, well, Québec outside of Anglophone Montréal.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

English Canada has fewer and fewer people who have any connection with any of this.

Except in the Maritimes, precisely.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Speaking of referendum... this from the new Catholic prime minister of Northern Ireland (the mere fact of writing that seems rather surreal):

The London elites would probably be very happy to see them ago. Northern Ireland has been nothing but headaches ever since they were forced into keeping it by its British majority population. Though Ireland might not want to actually take them for much the same reason. There's a whole set of new constitutional battles that would have to be fought to achieve any sort of integration - the Good Friday Agreement envisions that the autonomous binational autonomous government in Northern Ireland would continue to exist as an autonomous entity within a united Ireland if a border poll passes; and the Irish constitution has no provisions for that. All of this is definitely surmountable but it certainly brings headaches.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Yeah it was cool for many years to be proud of the domination of ones ancesstors. Now it's cooler to commiserate about the domination by the evil colonizers, invaders etc. Personally find both attitudes tiresome. English Canada has fewer and fewer people who have any connection with any of this.

It's ironic that everybody's arguing that their empire was less mean than the other guy's empire; when 100 years ago everybody would instead be arguing that their empire was better because they were meaner

[MolsonExport]

Can we please move on from the incessant demonization of the British and the colonial period? The colonial period was not pretty, no matter which power was the colonizer or which group were subjugated or conquered. Some episodes were worse than others, and yes, there is a lingering historical legacy. It is really tiresome, and all it does is give the impression that some here have an axe to grind.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

The London elites would probably be very happy to see them ago.

That's what they often claim (just as they also claim that they would be glad to see Scotland go), but in reality you can see the Conservatives denied a 2nd referendum to Scotland, and are also quite opposed to losing Northern Ireland, so the truth is, among English nationalist circles, owning these territories still seems to matter a lot, despite what they theatrically say from times to times.

Without Northern Ireland and Scotland, the UK would be reduced to a very small country indeed.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Without Northern Ireland and Scotland, the UK would be reduced to a very small country indeed.

Which is just what you want.

I hope your dog is feeling better.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Which is just what you want.

Since Brexit, I think you'll find that that's what a lot of Europeans would want. There's a strong sense of Schadenfreude, and little love left for the UK.

I'm actually one of the rare people who still defend the UK on Twitter, but most other Europeans are just extremely negative about the UK these days.

[Acajack]

François Legault is often said to be obsessed with Quebec "catching up" to Ontario. Some stats to put that in perspective.

https://www.lapresse.ca/dialogue/2024-02...hp?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Acajack

François Legault is often said to be obsessed with Quebec "catching up" to Ontario. Some stats to put that in perspective.

https://www.lapresse.ca/dialogue/2024-02...hp?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

Yes. I see a lot of good choices by Quebec which have lowered GDP but increased quality of life. The language allows this despite being in a open market with the rest of Canada and nearly so with the US. (If Ontario copied everything and matched tax rates the brain drain would be substantial)

All that said, the best way to give Quebec the real option of sovereignty is to catch up economically. If you take away equalization there are still a lot of economic reasons for the staus quo but the argument is certainly different.