City of Ottawa

[Proof Sheet]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Tierney, who was charged with bribery. Tierney, who staunchly opposed the LRT inquiry. It never ends with that guy. Such a freaking hypocrite!

Even more troubling..he is a proud Nickelback fan

https://twitter.com/TimTierney/status/1709258486452744494/photo/1

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

This is why I get incredibly annoyed by the regular assertions we see from suburbanites (like lrt's friend) that they should be given preference in policy development. They don't pay their fair share and impose substantial externalities (like traffic) on urbanites.

It's kind of weird to hear progressive voices argue we should prioritize residents based on their tax revenues.

At the end of the day the bulk of the population is suburban and despite pretending they want to be green and pro transit really they are about low taxes so overcoming that is always going to be hard.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

It's kind of weird to hear progressive voices argue we should prioritize residents based on their tax revenues.

At the end of the day the bulk of the population is suburban and despite pretending they want to be green and pro transit really they are about low taxes so overcoming that is always going to be hard.

It's not prioritizing residents based on their tax revenue, but providing services to a community based on population and density (which ultimately brings in more tax revenue). Why do suburban areas have more city parks when most people have backyards while the urban folks in apartments have fewer parks to enjoy (talking functional city parks, not NCC grass here).

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

https://twitter.com/SjamieIt/status/1751936505193349356?t=WqdHhgmZiI0pb7H-aPbWMA&s=19

Oh my.

Thanks for ruining my day!

[rocketphish]

The $300,000 donation that kicked off a contentious council debate
Have agreements like the one Coun. Shawn Menard made with Katasa Group played a role in the city before?

Blair Crawford, Ottawa Citizen
Published Jan 31, 2024 • Last updated 10 minutes ago • 5 minute read

Mayor Mark Sutcliffe wants to ban them. City council wants a formal policy. Capital Ward Coun. Shawn Menard says the $300,000 voluntary donation he brokered with developer Katasa Group, which he likened to a “community benefit agreement,” is exactly what city councillors should be doing for their constituents.

But what are community benefit agreements, and what role can they play as development accelerates in cities such as Ottawa?
Article content
Article content

To be clear, the Menard-Katasa memorandum of understanding (MOU), which has been withdrawn by the developer, was not a true community benefit agreement. Such agreements originated in the U.S. as a way to protect vulnerable communities from gentrification.

The $300,000 from Katasa, which is planning a 22-storey highrise at the corner of Bronson and Carling avenues, was to go toward affordable housing and traffic calming measures in the ward.

<more>

https://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-new...-kicked-off-a-contentious-council-debate

[zzptichka]

I like how some councillors see this contribution to the ward as problematic, but have no issues when those same developers are funding their personal election campaigns.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

This is why I get incredibly annoyed by the regular assertions we see from suburbanites (like lrt's friend) that they should be given preference in policy development. They don't pay their fair share and impose substantial externalities (like traffic) on urbanites.

There is nothing like skewed democracy.

Not all services are based on square footage though. Many services are more based on population, for example garbage collection. People downtown also tend to get more city services, for example, police and transit service. Also, snow clearing becomes exponentially more expensive with higher density. It has to be carted away instead of ploughed to the side of the street. Even sidewalk clearing is more expensive. Suburban areas tend to have much fewer sidewalks.

We can argue that the difference in property taxes is unfair, but I don't think it is nearly as great as a basic comparison suggests. Let's see a comparison of service costs between the two locations. Of course, that is much more difficult to determine.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by zzptichka

I like how some councillors see this contribution to the ward as problematic, but have no issues when those same developers are funding their personal election campaigns.

The statement of the day!!!

[rocketphish]

Sutcliffe accepted developer donation during campaign despite vowing not to
Mayor says money from Groupe Katasa exec would have been returned had he caught it earlier

Trevor Pritchard · CBC News
Posted: Jan 31, 2024 4:35 PM EST | Last Updated: 2 hours ago

Ottawa's mayor has acknowledged receiving a donation from a local developer during the 2022 municipal election despite campaigning on a pledge not to accept such contributions.

Mayor Mark Sutcliffe said Wednesday he'd only just become aware of the donation, and that had it been caught earlier the money would have been returned.

The $1,000 contribution from Groupe Katasa executive Tanya Chowieri came to light in a news release issued Wednesday by Horizon Ottawa, a local lobby group that advocates for progressive voices around the council table.

Horizon Ottawa sent out the release in response to comments Sutcliffe made Tuesday on CBC Radio's All In A Day during a broader discussion about Groupe Katasa's decision to offer — and then withdraw — a $300,000 donation that would have gone toward affordable housing and traffic calming measures in Capital ward.

<more>

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/su...campaign-despite-vowing-not-to-1.7100752

[phil235]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

There is nothing like skewed democracy.

Not all services are based on square footage though. Many services are more based on population, for example garbage collection. People downtown also tend to get more city services, for example, police and transit service. Also, snow clearing becomes exponentially more expensive with higher density. It has to be carted away instead of ploughed to the side of the street. Even sidewalk clearing is more expensive. Suburban areas tend to have much fewer sidewalks.

We can argue that the difference in property taxes is unfair, but I don't think it is nearly as great as a basic comparison suggests. Let's see a comparison of service costs between the two locations. Of course, that is much more difficult to determine.

I think that these are all misconceptions. Garbage collection is more expensive in the suburbs because trucks have to travel much farther per household. I’ve never seen anything supporting the idea that snow clearing is more expensive per resident downtown - do you have a basis for that claim? Sure snow has to be trucked away downtown, but that happens maybe twice per year. I highly doubt that cost offsets the much higher cost per resident of ploughing low density areas.

As for the suggestion that downtown gets more services, that is directly contrary to the city’s own studies. I think you are forgetting the density factor, as well as the fact that we have just spent billions on a train that primarily serves the suburbs. Also, I’d challenge you to walk into a community centre downtown, then go to a community centre in Barrhaven and tell me with a straight face that downtown residents get better services.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Not all services are based on square footage though.

At the municipal level? A lot of services scale more efficiently with density. This isn't really debatable. Halifax studied this a decade ago with plenty of data.

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Many services are more based on population, for example garbage collection.

What's more expensive for garbage collection? Picking up trash for 50 individual houses or emptying the dumpster for one apartment building or condo with 50 units?

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

People downtown also tend to get more city services, for example, police and transit service.

Which is both more cost efficient and cheaper per capita, because of density. A bus driving down Rideau probably has close to 100x more potential riders than the same distance in a residential neighbourhood in suburban Orleans or Kanata. This means the bus gets more ridership and the cost per resident to offer that service is cheaper.

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Also, snow clearing becomes exponentially more expensive with higher density. It has to be carted away instead of ploughed to the side of the street. Even sidewalk clearing is more expensive. Suburban areas tend to have much fewer sidewalks.

Exponentially more expensive? No. Again, what's more expensive plowing the road in front of a condo with 200 units or the street with 200 detached houses? Also, they're not carting away snow for every single snow storm.

But also, I'll see your snow clearing costs and raise you the cost of the roads, sidewalks, water mains, sewers, power lines and telecom cables. Do you think all that infrastructure is free? How much do you think it costs to maintain the 4 car width wide suburban street in front of every 50 ft wide detached lot in the suburbs? Meanwhile even, a modest 60s/70s four storey apartment block first a dozen units in the same space as 2-3 suburban homes without needing 200 ft of roads, pipes and wires.

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

We can argue that the difference in property taxes is unfair, but I don't think it is nearly as great as a basic comparison suggests. Let's see a comparison of service costs between the two locations. Of course, that is much more difficult to determine.

The Halifax study thankfully puts to rest BS like this.

....Halifax found the cost of administering services varied directly in proportion to how far apart homes were spaced. On the rural end, each house sat on a 2.5 acre lot. On the very urban end, there were 92 people dwelling on each acre. Between those two extremes were several development patterns of varying density.

Researchers evaluated how much of a given type of infrastructure -- like roads or water mains -- is needed for each type of development, then calculated the associated capital and maintenance costs per capita. They also determined how factors like travel distances and population density affected the cost of services like fire fighting.

https://usa.streetsblog.org/2015/03/05/s...han-twice-as-much-as-compact-development

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by zzptichka

I like how some councillors see this contribution to the ward as problematic, but have no issues when those same developers are funding their personal election campaigns.

Exactly what the mayor did:

Ottawa's mayor has acknowledged receiving a donation from a local developer during the 2022 municipal election despite campaigning on a pledge not to accept such contributions.

Mayor Mark Sutcliffe said Wednesday he'd only just become aware of the donation, and that had it been caught earlier the money would have been returned.

The $1,000 contribution from Groupe Katasa executive Tanya Chowieri came to light in a news release issued Wednesday by Horizon Ottawa, a local lobby group that advocates for progressive voices around the council table.

https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.7100752

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

It's kind of weird to hear progressive voices argue we should prioritize residents based on their tax revenues.

At the end of the day the bulk of the population is suburban and despite pretending they want to be green and pro transit really they are about low taxes so overcoming that is always going to be hard.

You must mistake my views. I'm on-board with giving people exactly what they vote for.

You support harm reduction? Cool. Let's open the centre in your neighbourhood. You want low taxes and road expansion? Okay. Let's take away your transit services to pay for that.

By shielding these voters from the worst consequences of their votes, we're creating false expectations and worse outcomes overall as funds are misallocated. Like the parks examples that J.Ot13 pointed out.

[Truenorth00]

More examples from the original author:

This tiny little cluster of buildings on just 0.88 acres of land in Centretown brings in more property tax revenue than this 9.24 acre Walmart Supercentre in Barrhaven.

Same scale:

https://twitter.com/SjamieIt/status/1752074844789743786?t=6XUTmxt3QtYPKNx_wSlkag&s=19

[Lakeofthewood]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Exactly what the mayor did:



https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.7100752

The hypocrisy never ends. I just want a normal city council who cares more about its citizens than it does being some weird high school clique.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by Lakeofthewood

The hypocrisy never ends. I just want a normal city council who cares more about its citizens than it does being some weird high school clique.

I’ve lived a few places and I haven’t really seen this “normal” city council of which you speak.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

You must mistake my views. I'm on-board with giving people exactly what they vote for.

You support harm reduction? Cool. Let's open the centre in your neighbourhood. You want low taxes and road expansion? Okay. Let's take away your transit services to pay for that.

By shielding these voters from the worst consequences of their votes, we're creating false expectations and worse outcomes overall as funds are misallocated. Like the parks examples that J.Ot13 pointed out.

This does make sense. Fundamentally city politics is undemocratic. The mayor might keep Queen Elizabeth open and is starving transit of funds because of an arbitrary limit on tax increases but the bureaucracy continues to add speed cameras on stroads, constrict traffic with complete streets and the like. Sutcliffe was a centre right candidate but even when we elected a right wing candidate in O'Brien the local councillors ran the show.

[Williamoforange]

Originally Posted by zzptichka

I like how some councillors see this contribution to the ward as problematic, but have no issues when those same developers are funding their personal election campaigns.

It's problematic because it was viewed as required and is seen as required by all the councilors associated with the 3rd party advertisers that is Horizon Ottawa.

It's attempt by local nimby councillors to squeeze money out of new residents to pay for things that should be paid for by the municipal budget. New housing isn't a piggy bank for council to run for there every whim, especially not during a housing emergency.

Menard even goes onto basically describe the donation with the same definition as development changes, ignoring that they exist for the exact purpose that he wants this funding for.

[Lakeofthewood]

Originally Posted by phil235

I’ve lived a few places and I haven’t really seen this “normal” city council of which you speak.

Yeah.... I don't have an example either...

[Truenorth00]

What's the point of building transit in the burbs when this is what they approve beside multi billion dollar investments?

Here's another big box development open for comments in the "community core" of Riverside South.

A "town centre" with "higher residential densities" in a "mixed use" "pedestrian-oriented centre within a high quality public realm".

599 parking spaces...

https://devapps.ottawa.ca/en/applications/D07-12-22-0169/details



This car-oriented development will be just 200m away from the new Limebank LRT station.




They admit in the application that it doesn't comply with the prohibitions against car-oriented development in this area, or the minimum heights around LRT stations, but they think it should be approved anyway - and the city likely will approve it.



There's a second big box development already approved right next to the LRT station with another 757 parking spaces.

Why do we even bother investing in transit to the suburbs when we completely waste the land around the stations?





I got a response from the city planner for this area. This city is a joke.

It's been more than 5 years since the LRT was announced to go here. This site is still just a big empty field. How have they not updated the zoning from 2011?

https://twitter.com/SjamieIt/status/1749829766008463613?t=mT-1ZFoPlqWLaVSAdfj7aA&s=19