The Official Moncton, NB Project Thread

[josh_cat_eyes]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

There is a hospital in Ste Anne de Kent, similar to the hospital in Sackville.

I think eventually, a new hospital in the metro area may be necessary, but, to what end?

- if the issue is a capacity one, then, a new community hospital in Shediac might make sense.

- if the focus is on more specialized care, then I posit the creation of a new provincial children's hospital in metro Moncton. There could be only one, therefore it would have to be bilingual. Most pediatric specialists practice only in pediatric hospitals, therefore, by having such a facility, NB would overnight up it's game in terms of the quality of pediatric care available. Meanwhile, existing pediatric wings at both city hospitals could be repurposed.

- aside from this, if the system could get rid of the bed blockers, this would instantly increase hospital capacity by about 50%. So, by having sufficient nursing home beds in the province, this would delay the need for new inpatient adult beds in the existing hospitals y 50 years or so.

-Build nursing homes and most of the other problems would g away (aside from staff shortages).

I love the idea of a dedicated children’s hospital in Moncton. This would save a lot of people trips to the IWK in Halifax if they could go to Moncton and receive the same care. It would also take the burden off the IWK for a fast growing city.

I would propose the former rail yard lands off of Vaughan Harvey Blvd & Millennium Blvd as the location for this new hospital.

[new kid in town]

Originally Posted by sailor734

I think we need more staff rather than just more beds. Apparently there are some 250+ existing nursing home beds out of service in the province due to lack of staff.

Definitely, the staff is a given. I did open the conversation putting the staffing issue aside

[sailor734]

Originally Posted by josh_cat_eyes

I love the idea of a dedicated children’s hospital in Moncton. This would save a lot of people trips to the IWK in Halifax if they could go to Moncton and receive the same care. It would also take the burden off the IWK for a fast growing city.

I would propose the former rail yard lands off of Vaughan Harvey Blvd & Millennium Blvd as the location for this new hospital.

I think that might be unrealistic. I don't know that NB is big enough to support a real, full service children's hospital. Many pediatric specialties are narrowly focused and require large populations to justify a cluster of those specialists.
Also, specialists prefer to practice somewhere there are others in their specialty. Otherwise the frequency of "on call" nights and weekends become unsustainable.

Surgeons doing specialized procedures need to do them regularly to stay in top form. It's a numbers game.

[sailor734]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

There is a hospital in Ste Anne de Kent, similar to the hospital in Sackville.

I think eventually, a new hospital in the metro area may be necessary, but, to what end?

- if the issue is a capacity one, then, a new community hospital in Shediac might make sense.

- if the focus is on more specialized care, then I posit the creation of a new provincial children's hospital in metro Moncton. There could be only one, therefore it would have to be bilingual. Most pediatric specialists practice only in pediatric hospitals, therefore, by having such a facility, NB would overnight up it's game in terms of the quality of pediatric care available. Meanwhile, existing pediatric wings at both city hospitals could be repurposed.

- aside from this, if the system could get rid of the bed blockers, this would instantly increase hospital capacity by about 50%. So, by having sufficient nursing home beds in the province, this would delay the need for new inpatient adult beds in the existing hospitals y 50 years or so.

-Build nursing homes and most of the other problems would g away (aside from staff shortages).

Couple of thoughts on this.


The trend in modern medicine for many years has been for fewer, larger hospitals that can offer a full range of modern medical services. Medicine is far more specialized and hospitals require a larger catchment area to justify some of these services.


People who require an in hospital stay are far sicker than they were 50 years ago. Many issues that would have required hospitalization years ago are now treated on an outpatient or day surgery basis. Those who are sick enough to be in hospital may need a variety of specialized services only practical at a larger center.

If anything we should be converting smaller hospitals to urgent care clinics with dedicated ambulances available to transport serious cases to one of 3-4 full service hospitals. However, that's where good policy runs headlong into local politics.

I agree with you 100% on the bed blocker issue. It's a classic example of civil service "not my problem" thinking. These bed blockers are being cared for so there is no urgency on the part of Social Development to deal with them.

[riverviewer]

Originally Posted by josh_cat_eyes

I love the idea of a dedicated children’s hospital in Moncton. This would save a lot of people trips to the IWK in Halifax if they could go to Moncton and receive the same care. It would also take the burden off the IWK for a fast growing city.

A bilingual New Brunswick Children's Hospital / Hôpital pour enfants du Nouveau-Brunswick is definitely a need.

Judging by the number of signed balloons covering Moncton Costco every year there is a pool of philanthropists ready to contribute to it.

[josh_cat_eyes]

I would say another need the area had is a major psychiatric hospital to deal with mental illness and people who can’t care for themselves. I think that wound have major impact on the homeless population, as a lot of them have serious mental illness that has gone unchecked.

[sailor734]

Originally Posted by josh_cat_eyes

I would say another need the area had is a major psychiatric hospital to deal with mental illness and people who can’t care for themselves. I think that wound have major impact on the homeless population, as a lot of them have serious mental illness that has gone unchecked.

I agree with that. The closure of Centracare in Saint John and the move to virtually all mental health services being community based back in the 80's and 90's has obviously been a mistake. Whether the concept itself was flawed or it was implemented without sufficient resources is open to debate. What is clear is what we are doing today is woefully inadequate.

It is also clear that a certain percentage of mental health patients require secure inpatient care. However the recent revelations about patient abuse at the Restigouche facility suggest that any secure mental health facility needs to be very closely monitored.

[sailor734]

Originally Posted by riverviewer

A bilingual New Brunswick Children's Hospital / Hôpital pour enfants du Nouveau-Brunswick is definitely a need.

Judging by the number of signed balloons covering Moncton Costco every year there is a pool of philanthropists ready to contribute to it.

As I suggested above, I'm not convinced there is sufficient demand from a population the size of NB's to support or justify such a specialized medical facility. As far as I know there are only something like 12 or 13 specialized pediatric hospitals in all of Canada.

I believe there is one in St. John's and the provincial pop is only something like 550k. However, I have to wonder if that is more dictated by geography than actually practicality of the location.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by sailor734

As I suggested above, I'm not convinced there is sufficient demand from a population the size of NB's to support or justify such a specialized medical facility. As far as I know there are only something like 12 or 13 specialized pediatric hospitals in all of Canada.

The population base is borderline, I agree. If an NB Pediatric Hospital came to fruition, it would not be full service in the same way as the IWK is in Halifax, and probably could not include cardiac surgery or neurosurgical care, but, I think could be useful for NICU, pediatric intensive care and pediatric oncological services, as well as providing a basis for improved basic pediatric specialist care in NB.

Originally Posted by josh_cat_eyes

I would say another need the area had is a major psychiatric hospital to deal with mental illness and people who can’t care for themselves. I think that wound have major impact on the homeless population, as a lot of them have serious mental illness that has gone unchecked.

A vert good point. I wholeheartedly agree. Institutionalization is the only practical option for many of the chronically homeless on our streets with serious mental illness. At least by being institutionalized, they will be fed, warm and well looked after. If a person is incapable of looking after themselves because of mental health issues, then it is the responsibility of the state to look after them.

Deinstitutionalization which occurred in the 1970s was a serious mistake.

Originally Posted by sailor734

If anything we should be converting smaller hospitals to urgent care clinics with dedicated ambulances available to transport serious cases to one of 3-4 full service hospitals. However, that's where good policy runs headlong into local politics.

I generally agree with you on this as well. The majority of meaningful medical care in the province is provided at the SJRH, TMH, GDH and DECH, ably backed up by the URVH, Edmunston Hospital, Chaleur Regional Hospital and Miramichi Hospital. That's eight hospitals doing 90% of the care. I agree that outside of that, urgent treatment centres with onsite multidisciplinary and perhaps multispecialty clinics with highly integrated ambulance services are the way to go. I disagree with you however in the sense that many of these smaller medical care centres could benefit from having onsite ER services, basic lab and x-ray services, and the ability to monitor seriously ill patients 24 hours a day if necessary (before a decision is made to transport to a more sophisticated hospital). As such, smaller communities like Sackville or St. Stephen still need basic emergency departments, complete with a small inpatient ward in order to provide comprehensive care to patients requiring active monitoring, or while waiting for ambulance transport.

[Taeolas]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

The population base is borderline, I agree. If an NB Pediatric Hospital came to fruition, it would not be full service in the same way as the IWK is in Halifax, and probably could not include cardiac surgery or neurosurgical care, but, I think could be useful for NICU, pediatric intensive care and pediatric oncological services, as well as providing a basis for improved basic pediatric specialist care in NB.

Population wise, we're probably borderline; but a Moncton Childrens Hospital wouldn't just service New Brunswick; it would probably pull PEI's needs in as well, and since it would be bilingual it would probably also service the Gaspe region too.

And as noted, Halifax is constantly growing, and the IWK is going to become more and more Halifax focused, just due to the numbers.

As you noted above a Moncton Childrens Hospital would probably be best to focus on regional services and the more 'basic' child health needs, while the IWK can focus both on Halifax needs and more speciality services. And as NB/PEI grow MCH's services could grow with it. It would be nice to start setting up the foundation work now or soon at least.

[sailor734]

Originally Posted by Taeolas

Population wise, we're probably borderline; but a Moncton Childrens Hospital wouldn't just service New Brunswick; it would probably pull PEI's needs in as well, and since it would be bilingual it would probably also service the Gaspe region too.

And as noted, Halifax is constantly growing, and the IWK is going to become more and more Halifax focused, just due to the numbers.

As you noted above a Moncton Childrens Hospital would probably be best to focus on regional services and the more 'basic' child health needs, while the IWK can focus both on Halifax needs and more speciality services. And as NB/PEI grow MCH's services could grow with it. It would be nice to start setting up the foundation work now or soon at least.

Sorry but I think the idea is "pie in the sky" dreaming.

Advanced, specialty Peds services for NB are being pretty well looked after by the IWK. What's the cost benefit analyses of pouring 100's of millions into a new specialty hospital (and trying to staff it) when we can't run what medical facilities we already have in an manner that meets a modern standard of care. The money pot is not bottomless.

It needs to be spent in areas where the need is most desperate (plenty of those), not on things that would be nice to have. The way things are in NB's healthcare system I would have to think that a new pediatric hospital for NB, while not a bad idea, would and should be way down any logical list of priorities.

[josh_cat_eyes]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

The population base is borderline, I agree. If an NB Pediatric Hospital came to fruition, it would not be full service in the same way as the IWK is in Halifax, and probably could not include cardiac surgery or neurosurgical care, but, I think could be useful for NICU, pediatric intensive care and pediatric oncological services, as well as providing a basis for improved basic pediatric specialist care in NB.

Do you think it could be built in conjunction with the IWK? Perhaps have a cancer specialization in partnership with the Oncology department at Moncton Hospital? How big of a potential Pediatric Hospital do you think the population can justify?

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

A very good point. I wholeheartedly agree. Institutionalization is the only practical option for many of the chronically homeless on our streets with serious mental illness. At least by being institutionalized, they will be fed, warm and well looked after. If a person is incapable of looking after themselves because of mental health issues, then it is the responsibility of the state to look after them.

Deinstitutionalization which occurred in the 1970s was a serious mistake.

What existed in the past? Did/does province have any psychiatric hospitals? I believe they are completely redoing the one in Charlottetown. Making it the centrepiece of a new development. I like this idea, it works well for people with dementia as well. The building looks & feels like a mini town so people feel comfortable. They are not laying in a hospital bed 75% of the day.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by josh_cat_eyes

Do you think it could be built in conjunction with the IWK? Perhaps have a cancer specialization in partnership with the Oncology department at Moncton Hospital? How big of a potential Pediatric Hospital do you think the population can justify?

The Dumont I think is already involved in some pediatric oncology now at the Leon Richard Oncology Centre. I don't know how much, or how independent they are from existing pediatric centres in Sherbrooke or Halifax. The Moncton Hospital has a full fledged NICU capable of handling virtually all but the most sophisticated neonatal care necessary.

I wouldn't envisage a huge hospital. Maybe something in the range of 100 beds. This would still be enough to attract pediatric surgeons and a variety of pediatric medical specialists. Right now, almost all pediatricians in the province are general pediatricians (or neonatologists).

This would be a long term project, and I wouldn't expect the government to get on board with anything like this for decades, but, eventually, with population growth, I think an NB Children's Hospital is inevitable.

[sailor734]

Originally Posted by josh_cat_eyes

Do you think it could be built in conjunction with the IWK? Perhaps have a cancer specialization in partnership with the Oncology department at Moncton Hospital? How big of a potential Pediatric Hospital do you think the population can justify?


What existed in the past? Did/does province have any psychiatric hospitals? I believe they are completely redoing the one in Charlottetown. Making it the centrepiece of a new development. I like this idea, it works well for people with dementia as well. The building looks & feels like a mini town so people feel comfortable. They are not laying in a hospital bed 75% of the day.

The major facility for the province was located in Saint John at Simm's Corner (overlooking the Reversing Falls) for well over a century. The move to a community based system was first started under the Hatfield government in the 1980's and the process resulted in the closure of the facility in 1996 during Mckenna's time in office. A very small facility called Ridgewood in SJ and the Restigouche facility in Campbellton remained but the number of inpatient beds shrunk dramatically with the changes.

So people who have some expertise in the area say the problem wasn't entirely that the move to community based treatment was bad, just that it went too far and that what community services were established were/are badly underfunded.

[MonctonGoldenTri]

Originally Posted by sailor734

Sorry but I think the idea is "pie in the sky" dreaming.

Advanced, specialty Peds services for NB are being pretty well looked after by the IWK. What's the cost benefit analyses of pouring 100's of millions into a new specialty hospital (and trying to staff it) when we can't run what medical facilities we already have in an manner that meets a modern standard of care. The money pot is not bottomless.

It needs to be spent in areas where the need is most desperate (plenty of those), not on things that would be nice to have. The way things are in NB's healthcare system I would have to think that a new pediatric hospital for NB, while not a bad idea, would and should be way down any logical list of priorities.

Maybe not today but in 12-15 years when Metro Moncton hits 250,000+ in population, NB 1M+ you would think the province would be looking into it.

[habs33]

From the city's FB page:

As demand for housing continues to grow, the City of Moncton is reviewing its development approval processes for opportunities to build more homes faster. Council is currently considering a series of amendments to its planning by-laws that would reduce the number of steps required to approve medium and high-density residential developments, while ensuring projects continue to meet the Zoning By-Law's rigorous site and design standards.

https://www5.moncton.ca/docs/conditional-use-faq.pdf

[new kid in town]

This might have been discussed before but if IKEA were to establish a branch in Moncton. Where would you place it?

I've always wondered if the huge field west of Vaughn Harvey between Barker and Millennium could hold something commercial like a mall. My other choice would be at the North West end. I would assume it would attract people from PEI and northern NB so it would prevent contributing to downtown traffic.

[josh_cat_eyes]

Originally Posted by new kid in town

This might have been discussed before but if IKEA were to establish a branch in Moncton. Where would you place it?

I've always wondered if the huge field west of Vaughn Harvey between Barker and Millennium could hold something commercial like a mall. My other choice would be at the North West end. I would assume it would attract people from PEI and northern NB so it would prevent contributing to downtown traffic.

There won’t be an IKEA in Moncton this century. Not unless Moncton has a growth spurt like a Chinese city in the 90’s. Halifax is even lucky to have one. Think of it this way, New England used to have 4 and they closed one so now they have just 3. If they only have 3, there is zero chance the maritimes ever gets 2.

[new kid in town]

Originally Posted by josh_cat_eyes

There won’t be an IKEA in Moncton this century. Not unless Moncton has a growth spurt like a Chinese city in the 90’s. Halifax is even lucky to have one. Think of it this way, New England used to have 4 and they closed one so now they have just 3. If they only have 3, there is zero chance the maritimes ever gets 2.

I completely understand that, and I have read several explanations as to why. My question was purely theoretical, hence the boldface and italicized if.

[josh_cat_eyes]

Originally Posted by new kid in town

I completely understand that, and I have read several explanations as to why. My question was purely theoretical, hence the boldface and italicized if.

Oh I see. I missed that part. I agree with your idea of a commercial node off Vaughan Harvey & Millennium. I think that having a retail node there instead of at Vaughan Harvey & Main makes a lot of sense. It’s more central for those living inside the Wheeler loop. I would also potentially support a retail node adjacent to Rallye Chrysler. Johnathan Creek then becomes a natural point for the downtown to transition into the existing uses on west main. Obviously I would support high density uses in either location but, especially in the case of the old CN shops, that is a giant brownfield, adjacent to existing industrial uses, so commercial is probably the best use of the land now anyway.