The Official Saint John, NB Project Thread

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

The city plans to have a walkway across the harbour bridge as part of their plans for harbour passage. Tremendous! (hopefully it will also be accessible to cyclists)

[sailor734]

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

The city plans to have a walkway across the harbour bridge as part of their plans for harbour passage. Tremendous! (hopefully it will also be accessible to cyclists)

This is double posted here and in the Uptown thread. Probably is more general Saint John than "uptown" as much of what is to come is Chesley Dr and the area around the Reversing Falls shoreline on the westside.

My thoughts on the Harbour bridge aspect....

I think the idea of pedestrian and cycle lanes on the Harbour Bridge is an attractive one. Forming a loop with the falls bridge would be great. However, I have to wonder at the practicality. Recent summer lane reductions due to maintenance and the resulting traffic snarls show that any reduction in vehicle lanes to make room for this would be hugely problematic. I think the reaction from commuters would be outrage (and rightly so)

The bridge was never designed for traffic other than motor vehicles. I'm not sure of the engineering/construction issues surrounding an expansion of the bridge deck width to create such lanes but I have to imagine the costs would be VERY substantial.

I have to wonder if this doesn't fall under the "dream big/pie in the sky/wouldn't it be nice" category of of the Harbour Passage plan?


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[adamuptownsj]

Harbour Bridge couldn't function as a two or three lane bridge. What if Reversing Falls was out of commission for a week or more? It's a 4 lane controlled access highway. Hard no. Let's get the Reversing Falls barrier situation fixed-- I'd remove the sidewalk from one side and put a bike lane and sidewalk on the other (no idea which), upgrade crossing infrastructure where needed, and call it a day.

Harbour Passage dreams should be focused on connecting the nascent Reversing Falls section to the current Bentley St. conclusion.

Then, in the longer term, from Reversing Falls via Riverview to Market Place (and someday, maybe Martello Tower or the Shoreline Trail/Digby terminal). For the eastern terminus, to Lily Lake via Crown. Unlike Route 7, Crown could actually stomach a road diet north of Union-- 5 lanes is excessive. There's no street parking south of Union and it's abnormally wide there already. Few private drives once you pass the BGC, and the Shoppers/strip map lot entrances could easily move to Hanover St.

[sailor734]

Originally Posted by adamuptownsj

Harbour Bridge couldn't function as a two or three lane bridge. What if Reversing Falls was out of commission for a week or more? It's a 4 lane controlled access highway. Hard no. Let's get the Reversing Falls barrier situation fixed-- I'd remove the sidewalk from one side and put a bike lane and sidewalk on the other (no idea which), upgrade crossing infrastructure where needed, and call it a day.

Harbour Passage dreams should be focused on connecting the nascent Reversing Falls section to the current Bentley St. conclusion.

Then, in the longer term, from Reversing Falls via Riverview to Market Place (and someday, maybe Martello Tower or the Shoreline Trail/Digby terminal). For the eastern terminus, to Lily Lake via Crown. Unlike Route 7, Crown could actually stomach a road diet north of Union-- 5 lanes is excessive. There's no street parking south of Union and it's abnormally wide there already. Few private drives once you pass the BGC, and the Shoppers/strip map lot entrances could easily move to Hanover St.

All reasonable comments. However, I do wonder about the value of going much past the falls on one end and Tin Can beach on the other. Fort Dufferin to Lily lake would be nice but given limited resources might it not be better to improve the quality, features and maintenance of a shorter length? (A quality over quantity sort of thing) Sometimes people forget that everything you add to infrastructure comes with increased annual costs for upkeep and repairs.

[adamuptownsj]

Originally Posted by sailor734

All reasonable comments. However, I do wonder about the value of going much past the falls on one end and Tin Can beach on the other. Fort Dufferin to Lily lake would be nice but given limited resources might it not be better to improve the quality, features and maintenance of a shorter length? (A quality over quantity sort of thing) Sometimes people forget that everything you add to infrastructure comes with increased annual costs for upkeep and repairs.

The city desperately wants it extended into the Lower West, IDK why. There's already a couple disjointed blocks by the community centre. If they want it to end somewhere useful, Digby/Dufferin would be interesting-- connect to another province and a different trail network. Some red sidewalk, lights, and shrubs shouldn't cost too much. Not any time soon of course, but a bit of signage indicating how to get to the Shoreline Trail would work. On the other end, Tin Can Beach makes a great endpoint. They should avoid extending further down Broad for now.

I'd be happy if they focused on the Bentley-Reversing Falls section, which I think I said recently in this thread. There will likely be a need for Long Wharf alterations if that's ever developed, probably similar to Fundy Quay.

[sailor734]

Originally Posted by adamuptownsj

The city desperately wants it extended into the Lower West, IDK why. There's already a couple disjointed blocks by the community centre. If they want it to end somewhere useful, Digby/Dufferin would be interesting-- connect to another province and a different trail network. Some red sidewalk, lights, and shrubs shouldn't cost too much. Not any time soon of course, but a bit of signage indicating how to get to the Shoreline Trail would work. On the other end, Tin Can Beach makes a great endpoint. They should avoid extending further down Broad for now.

I'd be happy if they focused on the Bentley-Reversing Falls section, which I think I said recently in this thread. There will likely be a need for Long Wharf alterations if that's ever developed, probably similar to Fundy Quay.

From what I read in the "Courts" section of the paper I wonder if the city is planning on including armed escorts for the lower Westside sections?

[sailor734]

If Harbour Passage was to be fully extended on the westside it could be a great opportunity to do something in the way of a park/lookout and interpretive centre at Fort Dufferin.
I've always thought it a shame that this part of our history dating back to the US civil war was abandoned and largely forgotten. How different our history might have been if Britain and the Union side had gone to war in the 1860's.

Interesting article from a few years ago......

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-bruns...in-saint-john-s-forgotten-fort-1.4472945

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by sailor734

If Harbour Passage was to be fully extended on the westside it could be a great opportunity to do something in the way of a park/lookout and interpretive centre at Fort Dufferin.
I've always thought it a shame that this part of our history dating back to the US civil war was abandoned and largely forgotten. How different our history might have been if Britain and the Union side had gone to war in the 1860's.

Interesting article from a few years ago......

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-bruns...in-saint-john-s-forgotten-fort-1.4472945

Interpretative centre?

This is prime, oceanfront real estate zoned as residential. Let's get serious and build some high rise condos, and high rise apartments. The Belyea Arena site is also a prime location for a high rise, ocean view condo development. It just requires rezoning, and move the nearby sign only transit stop from Chapel street, to a sheltered stop. A lot better than an empty rink turned into a homeless shelter. The last thing the West Side needs is the city picking this location as the site of the sanctioned homeless encampment.

Worry about putting an interpretative centre and putting the focus on history at Partridge Island, and complete the breakwater causeway project.

If the government can expropriate homes on Douglas avenue, it should be able to do the same on these homes within Fort Dufferin, and make way for a major high rise residential developments. The city should have no problem selling the Belyea Arena to a developer that wants to build a few oceanside condo towers.

https://imgur.com/hinhXFR

Moncton is building up their waterfront with some very ambitious high rise projects. Saint John's waterfront is undeniably more valuable and captivating, but it's like Saint John isn't even trying to play catch up in terms of high rise developments. Isn't this preaching to the choir considering the name of these forums?

Since, a key piece of the housing accelerator funds is increasing height, the West Side is a logical place to build higher. Few areas in Saint John have ocean-views like the West Side does.

[DyAm00394]

The past council meeting from the other day had an item from Committee Of The Whole.

Request for Expression of Interest for 21 Troop Street

"EXECUTIVE SUMMARY OF COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE REPORT FOR OPEN

SESSION OF COUNCIL
Staff have recently conducted an internal review of the City’s land assets and have identified properties that may be ready for sale for the purpose of re-development. These parcels were considered by Growth Committee at its meeting held November 21, 2023, and Growth Committee endorsed 21 Troop Street as one of the parcels that are currently surplus to the City’s needs. Staff are recommending an open and transparent REOI process to receive and evaluate development opportunities for this site.

COUNCIL RESOLUTION
That the City deem the property at 21 Troop Street, comprised of PIDs 424283 and 55055230 as surplus to its needs."

https://pub-saintjohn.escribemeetings.com/filestream.ashx?DocumentId=16743

[DyAm00394]

City hoping to roll out housing incentive programs this spring

"Saint John said the first of the new programs it promised as part of federal housing cash will come this spring.

The city found out last week that it will be getting $9.18 million as part of the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation’s $4-billion Housing Accelerator Fund. That agreement includes a commitment to deliver on 1,124 housing units over three years, including at least 285 “additional units” thanks to the new money.

At a council meeting Monday, housing manager Andrew Reid presented the city’s plan for achieving the federal targets. Reid said the money comes in four annual payments until January 2026, with the deadline to deliver on the units the following month.

The plan includes eight core principles, most of which were announced last July when the city publicized its application: north-end community improvement, encouraging rental housing, gentle density, affordable housing, leveraging city land, zoning reform, e-permitting reform and governance reform.

The “housing concierge” plan is to encourage purpose-built rentals with incentives as well as a project that involves finding developments that “need help” getting over the line, Reid said. Encouraging “gentle density” was to be done with incentives towards “missing middle” housing, such as townhouses, semi-detached housing and secondary suites, as well as pre-approved building schematics and amendments to the city’s subdivision bylaw, according to Reid. Affordable housing would be achieved via a grant program that was planned to “capitalize” non-profits and give them more capacity to build.

Reid told council the city has already got questions about what happens next, with the spring construction season approaching swiftly and construction costs still a concern.

“Incentives are a … large part of this housing accelerator fund action plan, and probably constitutes something over half of how that funding will be used,” Reid said. “Stay tuned for more information, but we’re aiming to launch those programs for spring of this year.”

Saint John Mayor Donna Reardon told Brunswick News that now that the money is in hand, they can announce the incentives and put the word out.

“Developers are in demand everywhere, so that’s what we’re hoping, that we will roll out the incentives and that will attract them.”

Other aspects of the plan include revitalization and infrastructure monitoring in the north end, inventorying public lands and amending the land disposition policy, ending “exclusionary zoning” by setting 4-unit minimums for “as-of-right” development, or development that does not require approval, as well as aligning zoning bylaws to permit densification. It would also involve bringing in e-permitting and seeking a “long-term model” for housing governance.

Previously, the city had said establishing a municipal housing entity was part of the application. Reardon said in a message that that remains on the work plan, as part of the “long-term model” established in the plan’s eighth initiative.

Coun. David Hickey said he was “excited” about the strategy, and said it was “what is going to get Saint John out of the housing crisis.”

Deputy mayor John MacKenzie said getting initiatives working this spring is “quick … talk about rapid housing.”

The housing accelerator package was criticized last week by Dr. Matthew Hayes, a New Brunswick researcher with the NB Coalition for Tenants Rights, who said the targets, which include only 101 units that must be affordable housing, weren’t ambitious enough, estimating that the city is losing 11 units of affordable housing a week.

On Monday, Coun. Paula Radwan asked why there wasn’t more focus on affordable housing in the plan. Reid said that the number, representing nine per cent of units, was a “minimum target” in their deal with the federal government.

“Our full intention would be to exceed that target through these initiatives,” he said, saying the city relies on its affordable action plan. “We know that nine per cent, 101 units, is certainly not enough over the next three years.”

At the meeting, Reardon encouraged councilors to support “missing middle” style developments, with a “variety” of housing including multiple units, saying not everyone wants to own their own home.

“We all need to be on board ourselves here as a team to help move these into neighborhoods as well, we need to support that,” she said".

https://tj.news/saint-john-south/city-hoping-to-roll-out-housing-incentive-programs-this-spring

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by adamuptownsj

The city desperately wants it extended into the Lower West, IDK why. There's already a couple disjointed blocks by the community centre. If they want it to end somewhere useful, Digby/Dufferin would be interesting-- connect to another province and a different trail network. Some red sidewalk, lights, and shrubs shouldn't cost too much. Not any time soon of course, but a bit of signage indicating how to get to the Shoreline Trail would work. On the other end, Tin Can Beach makes a great endpoint. They should avoid extending further down Broad for now.

I'd be happy if they focused on the Bentley-Reversing Falls section, which I think I said recently in this thread. There will likely be a need for Long Wharf alterations if that's ever developed, probably similar to Fundy Quay.

I know you're "Uptown Adam" but why so against development on the West Side? The "couple disjointed blocks [of the Harbour Passage] by the community centre", are a complete disgrace for a project called "Harbour Passage". Just look up directions for someone walking from St. John Street and Market Pl, wanting to use the Harbour Passage to get to Uptown Saint John. It's double the distance of what being able to cross the Harbour Bridge would. It makes sense why the City is trying to right a historical wrong that was done to the West Side. Mayor Reardon specifically brought up at council that the throughway and harbour bridge projects completely bisected and disconnected half of the West Side from the rest of the city.

If the city was to actually do something with the Digby Ferry area (like add restaurants, craft brewery gastropubs, in addition to a major residential development within the Fort Dufferin area, then that could actually make this proposal for a harbour bridge walkway worthwhile, or better yet, make bringing a ferry back a lot more plausible.

I remember you guys were very quick to call bringing back a ferry a nautical fantasy and complete pie in the sky stuff, but transforming that whole area from Fort Dufferin to the Digby Ferry area could actually help justify the cost of a ferry, or extending a Harbour passage across (or under) the harbour bridge.

Quickest way to start the transformation of the Digby Ferry terminal: Open the the first Dunkin' Donuts Franchise in NB. Not only would it get a boost from the Digby Ferry passengers during high tourist season, it would get a steady patronage from port workers and West Siders all year long... and actually give people a reason to go down there, other than taking the ferry. Heck, I think we'd have people driving all the way to that Dunkins from Quispamsis or even Moncton, if it remained the only Dunkin' in the province.

This could and should be an area of extensive recreational and residential development, instead of the unkempt fringe it remains today. The West Side of the Harbour and West Side Ocean view areas could be far more attractive and leisurely locations for residents from all over the SJ region to go on seaside walks, go for a coffee, drink, dinner... or even for some, a place to live in a a high rise, oceanside community.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by adamuptownsj

Harbour Bridge couldn't function as a two or three lane bridge. What if Reversing Falls was out of commission for a week or more? It's a 4 lane controlled access highway. Hard no. Let's get the Reversing Falls barrier situation fixed-- I'd remove the sidewalk from one side and put a bike lane and sidewalk on the other (no idea which), upgrade crossing infrastructure where needed, and call it a day.

Harbour Passage dreams should be focused on connecting the nascent Reversing Falls section to the current Bentley St. conclusion.

Then, in the longer term, from Reversing Falls via Riverview to Market Place (and someday, maybe Martello Tower or the Shoreline Trail/Digby terminal). For the eastern terminus, to Lily Lake via Crown. Unlike Route 7, Crown could actually stomach a road diet north of Union-- 5 lanes is excessive. There's no street parking south of Union and it's abnormally wide there already. Few private drives once you pass the BGC, and the Shoppers/strip map lot entrances could easily move to Hanover St.

Maybe we should wait and see what the city had in mind, before we go full Johnner and shut down an idea entirely before based on our own armchair urban planning and bridge engineering expertise.

It's such an impossibly Saint John attitude to be entirely cynical and talk about why a project won't happen, or why it shouldn't happen. Whether we're talking about building underneath the bridge, or slightly widening the sides of the bridge to accommodate either 1 or two separated pedestrian/bike paths, both are within the realm of possibility.

Why would the city draw up these plans and get people's hopes up, if they didn't think it was possible? This would be a federal, provincial, and municipal project, as it's always been with the Harbour Bridge. Every Saint John Area resident should want to see the Harbour Bridge transformed into something be proud of (which it hasn't been for decades), or eventually see it outright replaced with something appropriate for of the 21st century.

[sailor734]

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

Maybe we should wait and see what the city had in mind, before we go full Johnner and shut down an idea entirely before based on our own armchair urban planning and bridge engineering expertise.

It's such an impossibly Saint John attitude to be entirely cynical and talk about why a project won't happen, or why it shouldn't happen. Whether we're talking about building underneath the bridge, or slightly widening the sides of the bridge to accommodate either 1 or two separated pedestrian/bike paths, both are within the realm of possibility.

Why would the city draw up these plans and get people's hopes up, if they didn't think it was possible? This would be a federal, provincial, and municipal project, as it's always been with the Harbour Bridge. Every Saint John Area resident should want to see the Harbour Bridge transformed into something be proud of (which it hasn't been for decades), or eventually see it outright replaced with something appropriate for of the 21st century.

That's a fair comment in some ways as SJ certainly has it's share of naysayers. However, I think your posts often seem to be at the other end of the spectrum. Many of your proposals seem to be wildly optimistic with no concept of financial or demographic realities. Dreaming is fun .....and enthusiasm is great, but it needs to be tempered with reality.

I think the whole embracing the concept of active transportation is an example of this. I believe the vast majority of future road users will still be driving "cars" of some form......quite possibly a different size or shape and probably electric or another power source other than ICE but cars none the less.

[JakeNB]

Does anyone know when the ferry service between the westside and uptown was discontinued? I am thinking that it was long before the Harbour Bridge was constructed in the late 1960s.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by sailor734

That's a fair comment in some ways as SJ certainly has it's share of naysayers. However, I think your posts often seem to be at the other end of the spectrum. Many of your proposals seem to be wildly optimistic with no concept of financial or demographic realities. Dreaming is fun .....and enthusiasm is great, but it needs to be tempered with reality.

I think the whole embracing the concept of active transportation is an example of this. I believe the vast majority of future road users will still be driving "cars" of some form......quite possibly a different size or shape and probably electric or another power source other than ICE but cars none the less.

I think that’s putting it lightly… the naysayers that is.

What exactly was so wildly optimistic about any of my proposals anyways?

Saint John will barely even approve any high rise developments because of NIMBY nonsense about increased traffic, lack of parking etc. The West Side’s ocean views are unparalleled, yet anytime a developer tries to build something of substantial height, they’re shut down. The city really messed up denying that high rise development at Fort Dufferin quite a few years back now… citing traffic issues as the main reason to deny the project was just bad long term vision. I think they’d be rightly dragged for denying such an ambitious project today in the context of a housing crisis.

There’s many sites on the West Side that would make good locations for high rise condos or apartments. Yet, there’s no such projects in the pipeline. Hopefully this changes with the housing accelerator funds, as the west side has a lot of untapped potential for high rise developments.

Build up the density of the West Side, especially in the lower west, and things like a ferry or harbour bridge pedestrian crossings won’t be merely considered the stuff of dreams and fantasy. Building higher apartments and condos on the west side shouldn’t be considered wildly optimistic, it should be considered a development priority for the city. The area has all kinds of potential, but it’s been held back for decades.

The harbour bridge was meant to better connect the area, but in many ways the bridge and the throughway disconnected it from the rest of the city. It’s never too late to try and improve the situation. Making the West Side be a more desirable place to live and opening up the zoning to attract restaurants, pubs, etc, would be a good way to start.

[sailor734]

Originally Posted by JakeNB

Does anyone know when the ferry service between the westside and uptown was discontinued? I am thinking that it was long before the Harbour Bridge was constructed in the late 1960s.

1954. Last ferry was called The Loyalist and before that was the Ludlow. My dad and his friends used to take the ferry to and from SJHS from their homes in the Dufferin Row area in the late 30's/early 40's. I actually found ferry tickets saved in a box of mementos when I cleaned out his house a few years ago.

https://www.hmdb.org/m.asp?m=145398

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Not sure on the dates of these pics, but sure helps make it seem once again possible, as when you can see, you can believe it!

If Lancaster residents had a crystal ball to see what their area would turn into 50+ years later… I don’t think they’d have voted in favour of amalgamation. Not that the province wouldn’t have just forced it on them eventually.

[adamuptownsj]

I know you're "Uptown Adam" but why so against development on the West Side? The "couple disjointed blocks [of the Harbour Passage] by the community centre", are a complete disgrace for a project called "Harbour Passage". Just look up directions for someone walking from St. John Street and Market Pl, wanting to use the Harbour Passage to get to Uptown Saint John. It's double the distance of what being able to cross the Harbour Bridge would. It makes sense why the City is trying to right a historical wrong that was done to the West Side. Mayor Reardon specifically brought up at council that the throughway and harbour bridge projects completely bisected and disconnected half of the West Side from the rest of the city.

If the city was to actually do something with the Digby Ferry area (like add restaurants, craft brewery gastropubs, in addition to a major residential development within the Fort Dufferin area, then that could actually make this proposal for a harbour bridge walkway worthwhile, or better yet, make bringing a ferry back a lot more plausible.

I remember you guys were very quick to call bringing back a ferry a nautical fantasy and complete pie in the sky stuff, but transforming that whole area from Fort Dufferin to the Digby Ferry area could actually help justify the cost of a ferry, or extending a Harbour passage across (or under) the harbour bridge.

Quickest way to start the transformation of the Digby Ferry terminal: Open the the first Dunkin' Donuts Franchise in NB. Not only would it get a boost from the Digby Ferry passengers during high tourist season, it would get a steady patronage from port workers and West Siders all year long... and actually give people a reason to go down there, other than taking the ferry. Heck, I think we'd have people driving all the way to that Dunkins from Quispamsis or even Moncton, if it remained the only Dunkin' in the province.

This could and should be an area of extensive recreational and residential development, instead of the unkempt fringe it remains today. The West Side of the Harbour and West Side Ocean view areas could be far more attractive and leisurely locations for residents from all over the SJ region to go on seaside walks, go for a coffee, drink, dinner... or even for some, a place to live in a a high rise, oceanside community.

I missed this. I grew up partially in Fundy Heights and have much less animosity towards suburbs than some people on here. People like yards, cars, and privacy. I personally prefer living in walking distance to work and the pub. That said, this connection between the lower west and Reversing Falls is the best you're going to get. There is not a need for 'cycling infrastructure' across the bridge. Like someone mentioned above, every cyclist in Saint John is too busy lobbying for bike lanes to actually ride their bikes. It's a 4 lane controlled access highway. Should it have been built where it is? No, it should have been much further north. Are we going to re-route it now? Also no. We have to live in reality.

Who is going to 'transform the area' when the area is an eroding cliff? Not private developers, and I hope to God not taxpayers. Saint John's skyline is about to get a boost from a bunch of 6 storey projects in the vicinity of St Joseph's, and Fundy Quay. Developer attention is otherwise focused on Millidgeville. Is the municipality supposed to build condo towers and operate doughnut chains? The ferry trip is once a day. No one is going to open anything to service that schedule. The terminal is truck-oriented and is distant from the populated parts of the Lower West. Any kind of commercial development should be where people live and work. Market Place would benefit from some integrated development, being close to the port workers, community center, and most local small business. With AIM gone the area is much more appealing and safe.

I am on record here advocating improvements to the Shoreline trail, including extending it to the ferry terminal/Harbour Passage, and have brought the city CAO over there to explore it in person. Lower West will need committed investors to build out the vacant land that's already serviced, prove it's viable, and grow the population before taxpayers should be on the hook for things like you suggest. Saint John is still struggling to cope with being designed for many many more people than we actually have-- I believe we have the most miles of road per person in any city in the Maritimes. If a Three Sisters level, serious developer wanted to do what you said, I'd be skeptical it would happen, but fully supportive. But you seem to want things to just kind of happen.

Maybe we should wait and see what the city had in mind, before we go full Johnner and shut down an idea entirely before based on our own armchair urban planning and bridge engineering expertise.

It's such an impossibly Saint John attitude to be entirely cynical and talk about why a project won't happen, or why it shouldn't happen. Whether we're talking about building underneath the bridge, or slightly widening the sides of the bridge to accommodate either 1 or two separated pedestrian/bike paths, both are within the realm of possibility.

Why would the city draw up these plans and get people's hopes up, if they didn't think it was possible? This would be a federal, provincial, and municipal project, as it's always been with the Harbour Bridge. Every Saint John Area resident should want to see the Harbour Bridge transformed into something be proud of (which it hasn't been for decades), or eventually see it outright replaced with something appropriate for of the 21st century.

Replaced? With what? The feds, province, and city just sunk a ton of money into keeping it going. It's a strategically important highway. How is that 'inappropriate'? Torches and pitchforks would be completely justified if the city proposed shrinking it to two lanes. We are in the middle of a multi-year experiment with a two lane bridge and it doesn't work at all. I do not even want to address the ferry thing for the third time this year. If you think some kind of Navy Island parking lot/ferry terminal going to Long Wharf would see a bunch of people suddenly stop driving the extra ~5 minutes/taking the bus, IDK what to tell you. Improve the Harbour Bridge Express transit line instead.

You keep coming up with these crazy proposals that take nothing about population and commuter patterns into effect, let alone geography, using the name of the city's development agency. Saint John is on the cusp of a new neighbourhood plan for the north end, Millidgeville and the East Side are doing well, good success from Lower Cove Loop to Coburg St on revitalizing the South End, and has a booming port. I am not a downer by any means, other than on the ability of government to execute effectively, and the viability of 'we should just [...]' planning, with no regard for cost or practicality.

There are legitimate connectivity issues between the Lower West and the city center, which can be addressed with better transit service and connectivity down Douglas/Chesley for pedestrians and the elusive cyclists. I literally just posted about improving Reversing Falls Bridge in the context of the Harbour Passage announcement.

It's also unfair to compare the rural ferries to this. If bridges were viable, believe me, the locals would prefer bridges. The alternative is making people drive up to an hour out of the way. Demanding an urban ferry that would just be a third option and would take longer than the bus, accounting for getting there, is apples and oranges.

[adamuptownsj]

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

Not sure on the dates of these pics, but sure helps make it seem once again possible, as when you can see, you can believe it!

If Lancaster residents had a crystal ball to see what their area would turn into 50+ years later… I don’t think they’d have voted in favour of amalgamation. Not that the province wouldn’t have just forced it on them eventually.

Lancaster literally never extended south of City Line, hence the name. You're conflating the Lower West with the variety of orderly, stable, pleasant, and quiet working-to-middle-class suburbs from the Assumption to Manawagonish and environs. Lancastrians still call it 'going into town' when they cross the bridge. The state of the Lower West has little impact on their distinctness or desire for independence.

[sailor734]

Originally Posted by adamuptownsj

I missed this. I grew up partially in Fundy Heights and have much less animosity towards suburbs than some people on here. People like yards, cars, and privacy. I personally prefer living in walking distance to work and the pub. That said, this connection between the lower west and Reversing Falls is the best you're going to get. There is not a need for 'cycling infrastructure' across the bridge. Like someone mentioned above, every cyclist in Saint John is too busy lobbying for bike lanes to actually ride their bikes. It's a 4 lane controlled access highway. Should it have been built where it is? No, it should have been much further north. Are we going to re-route it now? Also no. We have to live in reality.

Who is going to 'transform the area' when the area is an eroding cliff? Not private developers, and I hope to God not taxpayers. Saint John's skyline is about to get a boost from a bunch of 6 storey projects in the vicinity of St Joseph's, and Fundy Quay. Developer attention is otherwise focused on Millidgeville. Is the municipality supposed to build condo towers and operate doughnut chains? The ferry trip is once a day. No one is going to open anything to service that schedule. The terminal is truck-oriented and is distant from the populated parts of the Lower West. Any kind of commercial development should be where people live and work. Market Place would benefit from some integrated development, being close to the port workers, community center, and most local small business. With AIM gone the area is much more appealing and safe.

I am on record here advocating improvements to the Shoreline trail, including extending it to the ferry terminal/Harbour Passage, and have brought the city CAO over there to explore it in person. Lower West will need committed investors to build out the vacant land that's already serviced, prove it's viable, and grow the population before taxpayers should be on the hook for things like you suggest. Saint John is still struggling to cope with being designed for many many more people than we actually have-- I believe we have the most miles of road per person in any city in the Maritimes. If a Three Sisters level, serious developer wanted to do what you said, I'd be skeptical it would happen, but fully supportive. But you seem to want things to just kind of happen.



Replaced? With what? The feds, province, and city just sunk a ton of money into keeping it going. It's a strategically important highway. How is that 'inappropriate'? Torches and pitchforks would be completely justified if the city proposed shrinking it to two lanes. We are in the middle of a multi-year experiment with a two lane bridge and it doesn't work at all. I do not even want to address the ferry thing for the third time this year. If you think some kind of Navy Island parking lot/ferry terminal going to Long Wharf would see a bunch of people suddenly stop driving the extra ~5 minutes/taking the bus, IDK what to tell you. Improve the Harbour Bridge Express transit line instead.

You keep coming up with these crazy proposals that take nothing about population and commuter patterns into effect, let alone geography, using the name of the city's development agency. Saint John is on the cusp of a new neighbourhood plan for the north end, Millidgeville and the East Side are doing well, good success from Lower Cove Loop to Coburg St on revitalizing the South End, and has a booming port. I am not a downer by any means, other than on the ability of government to execute effectively, and the viability of 'we should just [...]' planning, with no regard for cost or practicality.

There are legitimate connectivity issues between the Lower West and the city center, which can be addressed with better transit service and connectivity down Douglas/Chesley for pedestrians and the elusive cyclists. I literally just posted about improving Reversing Falls Bridge in the context of the Harbour Passage announcement.

It's also unfair to compare the rural ferries to this. If bridges were viable, believe me, the locals would prefer bridges. The alternative is making people drive up to an hour out of the way. Demanding an urban ferry that would just be a third option and would take longer than the bus, accounting for getting there, is apples and oranges.

Very well said....and a great summery. Thank you for taking the time to type all that!
I really don't want to discourage enthusiasm for growth and development but some of the wild eyed "they should just........." proposals I see on here are so far into fantasy land I don't even know where to start.