Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity - Page 325

Truenorth00 · #**6481** Posted **Jan 19, 2024, 4:47 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

New Brisavoine grew up in Pondicherry, didn't you know........

I have relatives who grew up near Pondicherry. He's right that there's less Western influence there. Just not in the way he thinks. Less French. More English.

It's kinda amusing to me that Westerners who have only just discovered Bollywood think Western influence is receding.

New Brisavoine · #**6482** Posted **Jan 19, 2024, 5:00 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acajack

I think the only exception might be St-Pierre-et-Miquelon. Not sure about them.

Euros!

(this is probably how you guys would speak today if you-know-what had not happened)

• Video Link

French problems in Miquelon (this is where our two societies have diverged... I'm not sure the ménagère de 50 ans in Québec would say like this lady in Miquelon that "life without fresh bread is no life"

).

• Video Link

Truenorth00 · #**6483** Posted **Jan 19, 2024, 5:05 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acajack

He is not wrong that the non-West is very likely to continue to move away from western influences. It will be gradual but steady.

I just spent time in a country that was considered a US vassal state or banana republic of sorts not that long ago, and I was surprised at how little global pop music in English was present there - on the radio, in shops, in clubs, in private vehicles and buses, etc.

Now, movies and TV were still highly influenced by the US from what I could see.

But still, what's happened with music there could still fairly easily transpose onto movies and TV as well.

And this is a place still highly affiliated with the US.

You're projecting here. Based on one example of a tiny Caribbean place.

India is not the same at all. They have a large and growing English speaking population and more access to English media today than they did in the past. My dad tells me how he used to cut classes in his Kannada-language high school to go to the one theatre in his hometown that played Bond movies, when he was a teen. My cousin's kids go to school in English and order Bond movies on Pay-per-View. Who do you think has more Western influence at the same age?

What I think confuses the culturally obsessed, is that in places with old culture, they have never seen cultural influence as zero sum the way you do. All those languages literally exist side-by-side. And I mean in the most literal sense. The same kids will have Hindi, English, and Kannada or Tamil songs on their iPods. And it's been this way for a long time over there. Mostly out of necessity. Most Indians have to speak at least two languages to survive (their state language + national language). If you come from another state, you end up speaking at least three languages (native + state + national). If you work at any company that is a multi-national or deals in any way with foreigners, you add English to the mix. This is why practically every Middle Class kid in India operates in at least 4 languages. The idea that one language supercedes the other would be very foreign to them.

New Brisavoine · #**6484** Posted **Jan 19, 2024, 5:07 PM**

PS: Miquelon still looking for a new boulanger.

(article from 4 days ago)

https://la1ere.francetvinfo.fr/saintpier...idature-pour-sa-boulangerie-1457339.html

New Brisavoine · #**6485** Posted **Jan 19, 2024, 5:14 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

somebody born in India and who speaks the languages

I know, you said that already a few months ago. It doesn't make you an Indian expert though, just as it doesn't make Arnold Schwarzenegger a German expert. I think I could speak better about Germany and its current society and politics than dear old Schwarzy who hasn't lived in German-speaking lands in a long long time now. Even though he speaks German much better than I do of course.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

But unlike you, the majority of Indians don't get their knockers in a knot over the issue. They just consider it a normal part of their cultural evolution. After all, their current culture itself is a result of the influence of one colonizer after another.

Considering the popularity of the BJP, I don't think they "don't get their knockers in a knot over the issue". You know full well that the issue of Islamization and Westernization, and losing 'Indiannness', is a tricky issue in India.

Truenorth00 · #**6486** Posted **Jan 19, 2024, 5:43 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Considering the popularity of the BJP, I don't think they "don't get their knockers in a knot over the issue". You know full well that the issue of Islamization and Westernization, and losing 'Indiannness', is a tricky issue in India.

Figures that a Frenchman thinks the rise of the BJP is because of cultural angst and not economics.

Do you know what one of the BJP's unofficial slogans was years ago (in the run-up to taking power)? Toilets before temples.

Also, Islamization and Westernization are in no way seen as the same threat. If you actually looked at a map and read some history, you'd understand why.

New Brisavoine · #**6487** Posted **Jan 19, 2024, 5:53 PM**

I've just had a look (a listen rather) at the 25 most popular songs in India in 2023 on Apple Music, as Westernized a platform as can be, right? And the result is... 23 of the 25 most popular songs in India in 2023 were in Indian languages (most of them Hindi, but it seemed to me 3 or 4 songs were other languages than Hindi). Only 2 songs were in English, and not even sung by Indian singers: one is a song by a certain Selena Gomez, from the US apparently, and the other one is by The Weeknd in partnership with the French band Daft Punk.

So there.

PS: The top three was entirely Hindi-speaking (or Hindi-singing rather).

Truenorth00 · #**6488** Posted **Jan 19, 2024, 5:59 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

I've just had a look (a listen rather) at the 25 most popular songs in India in 2023 on Apple Music, as Westernized a platform as can be, right? And the result is... 23 of the 25 most popular songs in India in 2023 were in Indian languages (most of them Hindi, but it seemed to me 3 or 4 songs were other languages than Hindi). Only 2 songs were in English, and not even sung by Indian singers: one is a song by a certain Selena Gomez, from the US apparently, and the other one is by The Weeknd in partnership with the French band Daft Punk.

So there.

PS: The top three was entirely Hindi-speaking (or Hindi-singing rather).

Judging Western cultural influence solely by the popularity of Top 25 on Apple Music, while ignoring every other metric (like the number of people who speak Western languages) is, well, about the depth of analysis I expect from you.

New Brisavoine · #**6489** Posted **Jan 19, 2024, 6:03 PM**

PS: One of the songs that I strongly suspected not being in Hindi was indeed not in Hindi, but apparently in Punjabi. It ranked #7 in India last year.

It's this one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQ1hlmWiuyM

I did not detect any song in Tamil in the top 25.

kwoldtimer · #**6490** Posted **Jan 19, 2024, 6:06 PM**

Anybody else think that "getting your knockers in a knot" would be kinda painful?

Truenorth00 · #**6491** Posted **Jan 19, 2024, 6:15 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

PS: One of the songs that I strongly suspected not being in Hindi was indeed not in Hindi, but apparently in Punjabi. It ranked #7 in India last year.

It's this one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQ1hlmWiuyM

I did not detect any song in Tamil in the top 25.

Nor would you. A north Indian has about as much chance as comprehending Tamil as you do.

You seem to really not understand the linguistic dynamic of India. People in each state communicate in their state languages for their daily affairs. If you land in Bangalore, you'll find the bus schedules written in Kannada. Not Hindi. They'll consume national media in the national language. That's why Top 25 on Apple Music is going to be mostly Bollywood songs. But Hindi is not the language that the majority of Indians speak at home. It's just the language that most northerners understand and is mutually intelligible with their native languages. Southerners struggle with Hindi so much that those who know English well often default to English instead. This is exactly why a list of top 25 songs is not reflective of the actual linguistic reality of such a diverse place. Go to the Wiki link provided above and sort by second and third language. Tell us what you see for top two in both cases.

Truenorth00 · #**6492** Posted **Jan 19, 2024, 6:17 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Anybody else think that "getting your knockers in a knot" would be kinda painful?

Ha! Typo.

New Brisavoine · #**6493** Posted **Jan 19, 2024, 6:24 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Nor would you. A north Indian has about as much chance as comprehending Tamil as you do.

I disagree. Tamil and Malayalam are the two most easily identifiable languages of India. They have a very particular melody. I couldn't distinguish Tamil from Malayalam though, but I could easily distinguish them from the rest of Indian languages.

Tamil is also the Indian language most spoken in France (because of Sri Lanka, not because of India), and the one you're going to hear the most in the streets of Paris (and in the Métro particularly).

That being said, I prefer Hindi in terms of how it sounds. I've always found Tamil a bit ugly (the way they speak so super fast, and with tons of retroflex consonants). But that's purely subjective.

In Paris you can hear Hindi from times to times, but it's mostly Indian tourists in Paris, not immigrants.

Anyway, there wasn't any Tamil song in the top 25, and I guess that's because Northern India dominates demographically. Also, I suspect more Tamil people listen to Hindi songs than in the past. Even some Tamil politicians now speak in Hindi (at the national level, not at the state level), which would have been unthinkable only 20 years ago.

Acajack · #**6494** Posted **Jan 19, 2024, 6:24 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Ha! Typo.

Who are you guys to judge other people's fantasies?

harls · #**6495** Posted **Jan 19, 2024, 6:38 PM**

India vs France in the Quebec thread.

Classic SSP.

Acajack · #**6496** Posted **Jan 19, 2024, 6:42 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by harls

India vs France in the Quebec thread.

Classic SSP.

Pinot noir with tandoori is always a winner in my book.

Truenorth00 · #**6497** Posted **Jan 19, 2024, 6:45 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by harls

India vs France in the Quebec thread.

Classic SSP.

Nah. Actual lived experience vs pompous projecting European 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵.

Truenorth00 · #**6498** Posted **Jan 19, 2024, 6:47 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

I disagree.

No you don't:

Quote:

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

I couldn't distinguish Tamil from Malayalam though,

Being able to tell two languages apart doesn't imply comprehension of either language.

New Brisavoine · #**6499** Posted **Jan 19, 2024, 7:08 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Nah. Actual lived experience vs pompous projecting European 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵.

Self-delusional immigrant vs realistic outsider?

Truenorth00 · #**6500** Posted **Jan 19, 2024, 7:19 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Self-delusional immigrant vs realistic outsider?

And there it is....