Should there be any doubt that LA belongs among the big 6 urban US cities?

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

The first derailment was operator error and had nothing to do with he quality of the infrastructure. The cause of the second is still unknown.

Some joker pulled an emergency break. Neither had anything to do with infrastructure.

[DZH22]

Originally Posted by LA21st

Sure but dtwn SF has a better consistency for pedestrians from what I saw. There are quiet parts of downtown chicago, where SF seemed to have people all over the place. It was the closest thing to NYC in my experience. Michigan Ave beats any downtown sf street, but outside of that...

Center City Philadelphia comes closest in the US to mimicking the feel of NYC. It's outrageously dense plus a more similar architecture vernacular to NYC than SF.

[38 Geary]

Originally Posted by DZH22

Center City Philadelphia comes closest in the US to mimicking the feel of NYC. It's outrageously dense plus a more similar architecture vernacular to NYC than SF.

I think LA21st was referring to pedestrian counts, and I'm assuming, pre-pandemic, not necessarily architectural feel. I think I saw some stat that SF has the one of the highest percentages of its metro population employed in the downtown core. In terms of pre-pandemic weekday pedestrian counts, downtown SF probably came closest to peak rush hour pedestrian traffic to NYC, as close as any city could hope to get at least.

As far as unique architecture, with the combination of the architecture plus scenery, it'd be really difficult for even the average person to mistake SF for anywhere else.

[jmecklenborg]

Originally Posted by DZH22

Center City Philadelphia comes closest in the US to mimicking the feel of NYC. It's outrageously dense plus a more similar architecture vernacular to NYC than SF.

One of the great shared details of NYC and Philadelphia is that they each have a New Jersey-based rapid transit line that operates independently of their main system.

[LA21st]

Originally Posted by homebucket

I think LA21st was referring to pedestrian counts, and I'm assuming, pre-pandemic, not necessarily architectural feel. I think I saw some stat that SF has the one of the highest percentages of its metro population employed in the downtown core. In terms of pre-pandemic weekday pedestrian counts, downtown SF probably came closest to peak rush hour pedestrian traffic to NYC, as close as any city could hope to get at least.

As far as unique architecture, with the combination of the architecture plus scenery, it'd be really difficult for even the average person to mistake SF for anywhere else.

Yes, meant the number of pedestrians.
And ive been to philly a few times.

Even during pre covid, if you crossed the Chicago river from the Loop into river north, its not the same as the density/pedestrian counts as chinatown in sf. Like every block felt busy.

Sf just blends better, more tnan anything outside of nyc.

[DZH22]

Originally Posted by homebucket

I think LA21st was referring to pedestrian counts, and I'm assuming, pre-pandemic, not necessarily architectural feel.

Center City always feels exceptionally busy whenever I stop through. In fact, I often see Philly and NYC as part of the same road trip, so it's not like I'm trying to make some comparison from 3000 miles away. I actually prefer the overall urbanity and vibe of my walks through Center City compared to walking around Midtown. It feels like they stuck downtown Boston in a vice and squeezed it together into something denser and taller, and then rearranged it onto a tighter grid.

Center City Philadelphia is probably the most underrated urban area on the continent. The second closest city after Philly to "feeling like NYC" on the ground is Montreal. That place is always hopping, and shares a lot of the Northeast vernacular with NYC, Philadelphia, and Boston.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by Quixote

I really don't see how car = not urban.

As has been pointed out, the cities of Chicago, Philadelphia, San Francisco, Boston, and DC all have car ownership rates of 67-75%. If it's easy to get around without a car, then why do so many people in those cities elect to own cars and pay for car insurance?

If somebody living in SF's Sunset District commutes by car to their biotech job in South San Francisco and drives to the Costco in Daly City to buy household necessities, then what does that say about the "urban" experience of living in SF? Why would residents have to even leave the city to make a living or purchase basic goods, and why would they have to drive instead of taking public transit?

I think the fact that Chicago, Philly, Boston, and DC's heavy and commuter rail systems have ridership that's 50-60% pre-pandemic levels (NYC is much higher) illustrates how much a car is/isn't needed, as non-work-related transport use is a good indicator of transit viability and culture.

And this is before even examining the actual built environment of non-core-adjacent neighborhoods, where the fabric is human scale but not completely unwelcoming to cars either.

What's the difference between urban and suburban in your opinion?

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by DZH22

Center City Philadelphia comes closest in the US to mimicking the feel of NYC. It's outrageously dense plus a more similar architecture vernacular to NYC than SF.

Center City is a great urban core, but it doesn't feel remotely like Manhattan to me. I think it's more similar to Chicago or San Francisco.

[DZH22]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

Center City is a great urban core, but it doesn't feel remotely like Manhattan to me. I think it's more similar to Chicago or San Francisco.

Read it again. I said it "came closest" in the US, not that it felt just like NYC. What other US city has the height, density, and vernacular to feel like a closer approximation to NYC on the ground than Center City Philadelphia?

Chicago has the height and size but feels too open, not quite sharing the street-level density of the Northeast corridor cities. SF has the density and crowds but not the vernacular. As much of a homer I am and as much as Boston can resemble a "baby NYC" I think Philadelphia does it better.

NYC obviously continues to further distance itself from everywhere else in the country, but again that's not what I'm talking about here.

[skysoar]

Originally Posted by LA21st

Yes, meant the number of pedestrians.
And ive been to philly a few times.

Even during pre covid, if you crossed the Chicago river from the Loop into river north, its not the same as the density/pedestrian counts as chinatown in sf. Like every block felt busy.

Sf just blends better, more tnan anything outside of nyc.

Maybe that is because San Francisco itself is more dense, due to compacting everything into only 47 square miles total as a city. Likewise, that helps the density of Manhattan, though I don't know the density of the other N.Y boroughs. Whereas Chicago having over 200 square miles probably lends itself more to being spread out, and less densely compacted throughout the city, even downtown.

[38 Geary]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

What's the difference between urban and suburban in your opinion?

Pretty big difference I think. I know someone that went to UCI for undergrad and needed a car to get around but when they went to UCSF (located in the Sunset) for grad school, didn't need one at all. Just walked, biked, and took Muni everywhere. The example Quixote is using one example of someone driving to Costco isn't really a great one since it's not representative of the majority of the population of SF, whereas I think in Irvine, I think the vast majority of trips is by car. There's a lot of nuance here that I don't think Quixote is really grasping just simply by looking at car ownership rates.

[Steely Dan]

So much black & white, all or nothing thinking going on in this thread.

There are a million shades of gray between North End Boston and Schaumburg.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by homebucket

Pretty big difference I think. I know someone that went to UCI for undergrad and needed a car to get around but when they went to UCSF (located in the Sunset) for grad school, didn't need one at all. Just walked, biked, and took Muni everywhere. The example Quixote is using one example of someone driving to Costco isn't really a great one since it's not representative of the majority of the population of SF, whereas I think in Irvine, I think the vast majority of trips is by car. There's a lot of nuance here that I don't think Quixote is really grasping just simply by looking at car ownership rates.

Yeah, I think the degree of reliance on cars is the fundamental difference between urban and "not urban". The distinction seems to be pretty global and the United States is probably where it is most blurred. The United States is very unusual, in the global sense, for having rapidly reconfigured its cities to prioritize driving and personal cars over pedestrians and densely populated environments.

[edale]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

Yeah, I think the degree of reliance on cars is the fundamental difference between urban and "not urban". The distinction seems to be pretty global and the United States is probably where it is most blurred. The United States is very unusual, in the global sense, for having rapidly reconfigured its cities to prioritize driving and personal cars over pedestrians and densely populated environments.

Yep. It's been pointed out a few times in this thread that car dependency is the real predictor of urbanity, not car ownership. Lots of people in transit and pedestrian oriented cities own cars, but only occasionally use them. That's a fundamentally different lifestyle than people who drive every day.

[Steely Dan]

^ what are you guys talking about?

There are only two kinds of people:

A. People who own cars that they drive absolutely everywhere, every single day, as they rack up 25,000+ miles per year.

Or

B. People who don't own cars and never go anywhere that they can't conveniently walk to within 15 minutes.

[TempleGuy1000]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

Center City is a great urban core, but it doesn't feel remotely like Manhattan to me. I think it's more similar to Chicago or San Francisco.

SF is the natural twin of Philadelphia. Many people traveled west from Philly to settle California. Downtown SF streets are named after the streets in Center City: Market, Lombard, Pine, Chestnut, Filbert. They were purposefully laid wider to be "grander than Philadelphia". Oddly enough, Chicago also has a bunch of streets named after Philadelphia suburbs that some rich guy built back in the day. Devon/Bryn Mawr/Rosemont/Ardmore/Wayne avenues on the north side.

Back to this topic though, you gotta leave the downtown areas to actually make a full comparison. And honestly, while not on the same level as the most urban cities, I do tend to include it into the group. LA was a big city before real suburban-ization took off.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by TempleGuy1000

Oddly enough, Chicago also has a bunch of streets named after Philadelphia suburbs that some rich guy built back in the day. Devon/Bryn Mawr/Rosemont/Ardmore/Wayne avenues on the north side.

The first developer of Chicago's Edgewater neighborhood was originally from Philly, and apparently he was a big fan of the mainline.

In 1885, the northeastern section of Lake View was given the name Edgewater by prominent developer John Lewis Cochran. He built the first residential subdivision in the area. Many of his homes can still be found in the Lakewood Balmoral Historic District. After a few years, Edgewater was celebrated as a wonder as it became "the only electric lighted suburb adjacent to Chicago".

Cochran was originally a tobacco salesman from Philadelphia who moved to the area in 1885. Upon arrival, he took his Philadelphia culture and geography with him to the area. This can be seen best by the names of the streets in Edgewater. Every street in Edgewater at the time was named after a train station on the former PRR Main Line, and most still exist to this day.[5] This includes:

Ardmore Avenue, located in Ardmore, PA.

Thorndale Avenue, located in Thorndale, PA, also became a CTA station.

Bryn Mawr Avenue, located in Bryn Mawr, PA, also became a CTA station.

Berwyn Avenue, located in Berwyn, PA, also became a CTA station.

Devon Avenue, named after Devon, PA

Rosemont Avenue, named after Rosemont, PA

Wayne Avenue, named after Wayne, PA

Source: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edgewater,_Chicago

[TempleGuy1000]

Nice! thanks for the link

[tech12]

Originally Posted by DZH22

Center City Philadelphia comes closest in the US to mimicking the feel of NYC. It's outrageously dense plus a more similar architecture vernacular to NYC than SF.

Center City is not as dense as downtown SF. The densest census tract in downtown SF has 171k people per square mile, while the densest in Philly has 64k per square mile. SF has four downtown neighborhoods with multiple tracts above 100,000 per square mile: The Tenderloin, Nob Hill, Chinatown, and Rincon Hill. Philly has none. Philly is impressive, but it's not more impressive than SF when it comes to density, which for the record, is something that I've noticed myself when I've visited Philly.

[Crawford]

Population density stats are often negatively correlated with CBD built density. The least dense neighborhood in Manhattan is around Wall Street. Midtown is the second least dense neighborhood. Similarly, I'm not sure if Center City's lower population density says much about its built density relative to downtown SF.

In any case, IMO it's hard to argue that Center City Philly, south of Market Street, and especially around Rittenhouse Square, doesn't have extremely strong similarities to NYC. It's definitely the closest street level feel. Walnut Street and Chestnut Street are likely the best examples.

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.9500432,...6thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu

The interplay of skinny prewar midrises and the leftover taxpayer lots is pretty unique to NYC and a few blocks of Philly, and maybe a bit of Boston. It's a very textured feel. Walnut and Chestnut give me downtown Brooklyn vibes, or maybe a scaled down Flatiron-area avenue, around Union Square or Madison Square.