Alexandra Bridge replacement | Planning Stage

[Kitchissippi]

I think most of the bridge's cultural goals could be achieved simply through thematic lighting. So many landmarks do this now from the CN Tower in Toronto to the Jacques-Cartier Bridge in Montreal. Identifying these objectives just allows these functions to be built-in right at the start.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

What would a curved bridge accomplish other than adding to costs?

It would certainly help make the bridge iconic, but I don't think it's necessary or even desirable here. Unless a bridge is purely for active transportation, it's probably best not to go there.

Originally Posted by zzptichka

Curious, do the bridges normally change names after full rebuild? What's the tradition there?

Champlain Bridge in Montreal kept it's name after re-construction. I can't think of any other recent examples off the top of my head.

That said, I'm not opposed to giving the new bridge a new name. If anything, that may be more fitting.

Originally Posted by DTcrawler

What an odd comment, but at least you’ve exemplified the issue many of us are raising. Again, most people don’t take issue with commemorating or honouring various groups such as the Indigenous or LGBTQ communities, but at a certain point even staunch moderates like myself start to question the need to continually throw s*** at a wall and see what sticks. I’d much rather see re-naming occur in a more thoughtful and deliberate manner when there’s a strong case to do so.

Then there’s the aspect of familiarity, wherein federal bureaucrats have thrown locals’ ability to recognize our own landmarks to the wayside in favour of using these names to pander on a national scale. Years after Lebreton station became Pimisi, I still get occasionally blank stares when I refer to the station by the latter. And I guarantee you nobody outside of this forum will call the new central library “Adisoke” despite that actually being a pretty great name. Once Nepean Point reopens, it will still be Nepean Point. In fact, I can’t even remember what it’s been renamed to without checking. And then the Parkway… don’t even get me started.

Ottawa is already a place with a lot of transient people and lacks a strong culture compared to other big cities. Further eroding our sense of identity by making people feel unfamiliar with the landmarks they’ve known for their entire lives is a dangerous path to go down.

Originally Posted by YOWetal

I think you are right that resistance to the the woke agenda of this government has increased on this forum at the same time as it has in Canadian society more generally. Part of this is the forum average age getting older I'm sure but reflecting the broader Canadian mood is also true.

You can of course delete your account but not everyone who thinks a bridge doesn't need to reflect LGBTQ2+ history is homophobic or even transphobic. Not everyone who thinks everything in Ottawa needn't or even shouldn't be named after Algonquins is racist. Certainly some or even many are. Others think we should judge people as individuals. I don't consider my viewpoint more valuable than a newly arrived immigrant and being here a few generation shouldn't give me more rights to comment on things than a new citizen. We live in a democracy and while we have a more collective viewpoint than our southern neighbours each individual has inherent value and right to think and believe as they see fit as well.

I think you both touched on it pretty well. I don't think anyone here is against naming things to honour the Indigenous, LGBTQ+, or any other group. It's that it's being overdone as an easy "win" instead of doing things that actually matter.

Certainly no one thinks we don't have enough named after old white guys. Just don't over do it. Kitchi Sibi is meaningless if we plaster the name everywhere. Renaming PoW for Commanda was an inspired choice, but naming a street after him kilometers away on the same day was unnecessary. We shouldn't name a transit station some Algonquin name chosen by committee if there's no geographical link. In that case, maybe we should name the aqueduct Pimisi as well to make that link.

Originally Posted by citizen j

Yes, that's an ambitious list. Good. Will the bridge achieve all of that successfully? Probably not, but that's a different issue.

If I felt resistance or animosity to the project's cultural goals, I might ask myself why. What specifically is it that makes me uncomfortable and what does that say about me? There have been some very revealing statements made here that seem to be part of a growing trend. I've resisted saying anything but now I think I've had enough.
Moderators, please delete my account. Thank you.

I won't delete your account. You should be able to do that yourself if you chose to do so. I hope you decide to stick around. We will all certainly have some differing opinions on this forum, just like everywhere else. I think the forum is generally more respectful than Facebook or Twitter.

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

I think most of the bridge's cultural goals could be achieved simply through thematic lighting. So many landmarks do this now from the CN Tower in Toronto to the Jacques-Cartier Bridge in Montreal. Identifying these objectives just allows these functions to be built-in right at the start.

That's a good idea. Light it orange National Indigenous Peoples Day and the National Day for Truth and Reconciliation, light it rainbow on Pride Week. Light it red and green on Christmas. Light it green and yellow for Eid.

[rocketphish]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

I agree to a certain point as well. We have another thread to discuss such issues, but I can't find it.

Here it is:
https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=247076

[lrt's friend]

I am involved in the heritage community and we have to apply for grant funding every year. There are conditions on this funding, and there is a list of suitable subject matter that is as extensive or more extensive than the list of what we need to honour with the bridge. It basically covers everything except the mainstream.

It is great to honour every minority group (and we should), but we lose most context of our past if we are expected to focus on only minorities.

It seems to me that we are delegitimizing our post-settlement history and the end result, is that we only understand pre-settlement history (which is poorly documented, and may allow it to be viewed through rose coloured glasses) and very recent history when many minority groups have been more prominent. We start losing everything in between and therefore we lose an overall understanding of how things came to be.

Hence, we skip the importance of the Alexandra bridge as a railway connection, how it was being built at the time of the great 1900 Ottawa fire and why it got its name? It was opened by the future King George V and Queen Mary to honour his mother. This was a very important event in Ottawa history. Surprisingly, this event honoured our indigenous communities and the Ottawa Valley lumbering history, the latter we seem to rather forget.

[lrt's friend]

My other comments are:

No doubt all the items listed are legitimate, but with so many priorities, is there a great risk of a mediocre compromise to check off all the boxes?

We should be seeking a bridge that offers great aesthetics and great functionality. The current bridge has lasted for over 120 years. Will the replacement bridge be built to this standard? We know how recent construction often has a much shorter lifespan.

It was mentioned that the bridge should offer a light display. That has also crossed my mind, and it should be noted that the Alexandra bridge opened in 1901 with Ottawa's first great electric light display. I also think of the harbour bridge in Sydney, Australia where great fireworks displays are set off for various special events, for example, New Years. We should aspire for the inspirational.

I liked the comment about the light display that could be tailored for various commemorations, pride, reconciliation, canada day, etc.

Are we prepared to spend money to accomplish both lighting and fireworks? But we know that Ottawa always goes for the mediocre. I hope not this time. This is the centre of our city and also the centre of our country. No cheapskate compromises please.

When we include LGBTQ+, we have to focus on the positive, and not the past tragedy of the young man pushed off the bridge and the seedy side of gay meetups at Major's Hill Park in pre-internet times.

As far as renaming everything with indigenous names, this needs to be tempered and balanced. When we go overboard and names get confusing and hard to remember, people will revert to what is familiar. I am afraid that ādisōke may be easy to pronounce, but look at those accents, that are unfamiliar in both the English and French languages. How do you even type them without a whole lot of fuss? And what about visitors who see that and wonder about the correct pronunciation. Obviously, this will revert to the Ottawa Public Library for most users. Very few will use the 'official' name. Not so different than the official naming of Prince of Wales Falls. Who knows the location of that without looking it up?

We can't compare the renaming of Bytown to Ottawa, since this has entered our daily language. As we move to less important landmarks, that we don't use regularly, it becomes a question mark for even Ottawa residents. We revert to the old name or we start stammering about the location. For example, I wouldn't have a clue what the new name of Nepean Point is without looking it up. And as this renaming program accelerates, the public will become increasingly confused about geography. That is why I also complain about transit station renaming. It is another point of confusion in our day-to-day lives that we don't need.

Pimisi has been accepted by a large portion of the public because it is mentioned on the train every day, but I have my doubts about those who do not use the train. It is only a transit term. Regardless, it is now two locations that we have to remember, both Pimisi and Lebreton Flats, which still remains a legitimate name. Regardless of anybody's opinion, Lebreton is an important part of early Bytown history, and as I pointed out in my previous message, we should not be removing important parts of our post-settlement history for politically correct reasons.

[kwoldtimer]

Two excellent posts. Thank you.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by zzptichka

Imagine looking at this map and thinking there is not enough honouring of white men going on here and that "woke culture" has gone too far!

French and British men mostly built this country so naturally more is named after them. Princess Alexandra doesn't seem critical to Canada so sure let's name it after some unpronounceable indigenous word announce we are on unseeded land we aren't giving back while reserves live in third world conditions.

This isn't about what the name should be as much as setting the whole agenda of the bridge on highlighting the woke agenda. We are not so efficient at building infrastructure that we can afford to get distracted with other issues.

[MarkR]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

The bike rental shop still in the loop?

Indeed it is.

It's a private business, but when it was forced out of its previous location (the Chateau Laurier parking lot) the NCC realized it was of great benefit to tourism, and so offered it the old streetcar loop space.

Which I thought was great (especially since I'm an advocate of both bicycle and streetcar transportation), given that the loop had been blocked off for decades, to the point that the vast majority of folks didn't even know it existed. And while the customer part of the business is not in the curved part of the loop that curve is quite visible from the customer area, and does generate questions.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

French and British men mostly built this country so naturally more is named after them. Princess Alexandra doesn't seem critical to Canada so sure let's name it after some unpronounceable indigenous word announce we are on unseeded land we aren't giving back while reserves live in third world conditions.

This isn't about what the name should be as much as setting the whole agenda of the bridge on highlighting the woke agenda. We are not so efficient at building infrastructure that we can afford to get distracted with other issues.

It wasn’t named after Princess Alexandra, it was named after Queen Alexandra, the Queen Consort of Canada when the bridge was built. Same as the Royal Alexandra theatre in Toronto

[DTcrawler]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

My other comments are:

No doubt all the items listed are legitimate, but with so many priorities, is there a great risk of a mediocre compromise to check off all the boxes?

We should be seeking a bridge that offers great aesthetics and great functionality. The current bridge has lasted for over 120 years. Will the replacement bridge be built to this standard? We know how recent construction often has a much shorter lifespan.

It was mentioned that the bridge should offer a light display. That has also crossed my mind, and it should be noted that the Alexandra bridge opened in 1901 with Ottawa's first great electric light display. I also think of the harbour bridge in Sydney, Australia where great fireworks displays are set off for various special events, for example, New Years. We should aspire for the inspirational.

I liked the comment about the light display that could be tailored for various commemorations, pride, reconciliation, canada day, etc.

Are we prepared to spend money to accomplish both lighting and fireworks? But we know that Ottawa always goes for the mediocre. I hope not this time. This is the centre of our city and also the centre of our country. No cheapskate compromises please.

When we include LGBTQ+, we have to focus on the positive, and not the past tragedy of the young man pushed off the bridge and the seedy side of gay meetups at Major's Hill Park in pre-internet times.

As far as renaming everything with indigenous names, this needs to be tempered and balanced. When we go overboard and names get confusing and hard to remember, people will revert to what is familiar. I am afraid that ādisōke may be easy to pronounce, but look at those accents, that are unfamiliar in both the English and French languages. How do you even type them without a whole lot of fuss? And what about visitors who see that and wonder about the correct pronunciation. Obviously, this will revert to the Ottawa Public Library for most users. Very few will use the 'official' name. Not so different than the official naming of Prince of Wales Falls. Who knows the location of that without looking it up?

We can't compare the renaming of Bytown to Ottawa, since this has entered our daily language. As we move to less important landmarks, that we don't use regularly, it becomes a question mark for even Ottawa residents. We revert to the old name or we start stammering about the location. For example, I wouldn't have a clue what the new name of Nepean Point is without looking it up. And as this renaming program accelerates, the public will become increasingly confused about geography. That is why I also complain about transit station renaming. It is another point of confusion in our day-to-day lives that we don't need.

Pimisi has been accepted by a large portion of the public because it is mentioned on the train every day, but I have my doubts about those who do not use the train. It is only a transit term. Regardless, it is now two locations that we have to remember, both Pimisi and Lebreton Flats, which still remains a legitimate name. Regardless of anybody's opinion, Lebreton is an important part of early Bytown history, and as I pointed out in my previous message, we should not be removing important parts of our post-settlement history for politically correct reasons.

Finally something we agree on. In fact, it's crazy how similar the points we brought up are, namely re: Adisoke, Pimisi and Kiweki (Nepean) Point. I'm guessing you missed my post on the previous page, but have a look if you wish. I think you worded it more eloquently.

One thing I'll add is, does it not scream tokenism in the face of the groups which the feds are trying to reconcile with, when they see a list as extensive as that put out by PSPC naming every marginalized group under the sun? If it were me, I don't know how much solace I'd feel seeing them try to milk a single project for so much social justice cred. It just seems so disingenuous that I don't know how anyone buys into it.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

When we include LGBTQ+, we have to focus on the positive, and not the past tragedy of the young man pushed off the bridge and the seedy side of gay meetups at Major's Hill Park in pre-internet times.

The young man who was murdered by being thrown off the bridge wasn't even gay. I think he was a waiter at the Château Laurier who took a short-cut through the park after work to get back home to the apartment in Hull he shared with his girlfriend. His murder though was part of a series of horrifying violent anti-gay incidents in Ottawa at the time. The gay bashers targeted Major's Hill Park as it was a noted place for gay cruising. This poor guy was in the wrong place at the wrong time.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Champlain Bridge in Montreal kept it's name after re-construction. I can't think of any other recent examples off the top of my head.

That said, I'm not opposed to giving the new bridge a new name. If anything, that may be more fitting.

Technically, the Champlain Bridge in Montreal was given a new name. The new bridge is the Samuel-De Champlain Bridge, whereas the old one was just Champlain. I think this is part of a general trend in Quebec to use French naming conventions, which typically use a person's full name. As opposed to English naming conventions which favour only the surname. Of course you have tons of exceptions to both, but if you look at maps of cities in the francophone and anglophone worlds you'll see it's generally how things appear.

That said, I don't have any issue with giving a new name to the new bridge. It would be totally appropriate. Hopefully it's a decent one like Adisoke.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by DTcrawler

Finally something we agree on. In fact, it's crazy how similar the points we brought up are, namely re: Adisoke, Pimisi and Kiweki (Nepean) Point. I'm guessing you missed my post on the previous page, but have a look if you wish. I think you worded it more eloquently.

One thing I'll add is, does it not scream tokenism in the face of the groups which the feds are trying to reconcile with, when they see a list as extensive as that put out by PSPC naming every marginalized group under the sun? If it were me, I don't know how much solace I'd feel seeing them try to milk a single project for so much social justice cred. It just seems so disingenuous that I don't know how anyone buys into it.

I read all your messages and I thank you for your comment. It is a little hard to respond to many comments with quotations, when I am away from a lively discussion for a day. It is fine that we have different viewpoints on various topics. That enriches the discussion.

I think kitchissippi's comment on thematic lighting is a great way to address many of the priorities so we can focus on great design.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by acottawa

It wasn’t named after Princess Alexandra, it was named after Queen Alexandra, the Queen Consort of Canada when the bridge was built. Same as the Royal Alexandra theatre in Toronto

Maybe Camilla bridge then? The monarchy historically was very important to people and still is to some Canadians. Constitutionally it is critical and people who dismiss it because of colonialism seem to not understand where they live. If you want to vote to change Canada to a republic more power to you but until then it's perfectly normal to name things after current and past heads of state. Yes they look to be all white for the next 50 years at least.

Originally Posted by Acajack

The young man who was murdered by being thrown off the bridge wasn't even gay. I think he was a waiter at the Château Laurier who took a short-cut through the park after work to get back home to the apartment in Hull he shared with his girlfriend. His murder though was part of a series of horrifying violent anti-gay incidents in Ottawa at the time. The gay bashers targeted Major's Hill Park as it was a noted place for gay cruising. This poor guy was in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Regardless I absolutely support a prominent plaque letting people know about this. Honestly it makes a lot more sense now that that was part of the mandate.

Last line of this seems relevant:

https://youtube.com/shorts/YldldxNLUjA?si=XUsndv1aLQFtSHJC

[OTownandDown]

I think you already have a monument to that in the park. (Correction, it's the Building Trades monument, but pretty close).

Originally Posted by roger1818

Or, since it was originally built by the CPR, the building of a nation by the construction of a railway and the lives of many (mostly immigrants) were lost during its construction.

Alternatively, as it says in Wikipedia, "The bridge's main cantilever centre span was, at the time of construction, the longest in Canada and the fourth-longest in the world." Why not use it to celebrate Canadian Engineering, or is it politically incorrect to celebrate an industry that was traditionally predominately men?

So based on the last two days of round and round, it's settled:
1. Under-arch bridge, with at least two decks, if not three. Curved, to avoid the complete demo of (Part 4) below. Rail deck shall remain empty for 30 years.
2. Festive lighting including: Orange, Red, Rainbow, Green and *insert all others because its not flags so we can do whatever*. Maybe even a low-cost fancy bridge-wide fountain lit up at night like they do in Korea. River water, solar panel pumps of course *sustainability ftw*
3. Algonquin sharing circle at the foot of each side of the bridge, or at the prominence of the bridge. High quality materials, indigenous-led name for circle.
4. Piece of original bridge maintained on site, including perhaps even a train body. Plaques for all who died during construction, cross-canada train link, murders, and etc.
5. Alexandria Bridge title is maintained, to honour our recent past.
6. NO disneyfication by cheap precast, or underwhelming laminate interpretive signs at 50ft on-centre while walking across the bridge.

[Kitchissippi]

The whole thing behind identifying what the new bridge should symbolize is not to commemorate what Canada was and never will be again based on a romanticized history of broad-shouldered lumber jacks, mighty men who laid spikes for steel rails, and British subjects who "virtuously" achieved things for King and country (you know, because there was no profit involved in it, or environmental cost, nor caused any displacement of indigenous peoples). It's to reflect what Canada is now and aspires to be: a diverse and inclusive society. The truth is the vast majority of Ottawans today were not born in this city or province, or even this country. To push an old narrative that the French and British "built" this country does nothing to make them feel like they belong in their new home. Canada is not a finished product, it continues to be built and will be built by this new multicultural citizenry.

History is important and has great to learn lessons from, but it should not be the main factor for defining who we are today and what we want to be in the future.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

The whole thing behind identifying what the new bridge should symbolize is not to commemorate what Canada was and never will be again based on a romanticized history of broad-shouldered lumber jacks, mighty men who laid spikes for steel rails, and British subjects who "virtuously" achieved things for King and country (you know, because there was no profit involved in it, or environmental cost, nor caused any displacement of indigenous peoples). It's to reflect what Canada is now and aspires to be: a diverse and inclusive society. The truth is the vast majority of Ottawans today were not born in this city or province, or even this country. To push an old narrative that the French and British "built" this country does nothing to make them feel like they belong in their new home. Canada is not a finished product, it continues to be built and will be built by this new multicultural citizenry.

History is important and has great to learn lessons from, but it should not be the main factor for defining who we are today and what we want to be in the future.

I get your view, and fully recognize it is a view that's out there, but I don't think this is true. Certainly not when it comes to the country, and probably not for the province either. Maybe I'll grant you the city, though.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

The whole thing behind identifying what the new bridge should symbolize is not to commemorate what Canada was and never will be again based on a romanticized history of broad-shouldered lumber jacks, mighty men who laid spikes for steel rails, and British subjects who "virtuously" achieved things for King and country (you know, because there was no profit involved in it, or environmental cost, nor caused any displacement of indigenous peoples). It's to reflect what Canada is now and aspires to be: a diverse and inclusive society. The truth is the vast majority of Ottawans today were not born in this city or province, or even this country. To push an old narrative that the French and British "built" this country does nothing to make them feel like they belong in their new home. Canada is not a finished product, it continues to be built and will be built by this new multicultural citizenry.

History is important and has great to learn lessons from, but it should not be the main factor for defining who we are today and what we want to be in the future.

Yeah because pre-contact Indigenous life is never over-romanticized. The world is quickly changing but the way this country was built is certainly more likely to lead to success than some new view that the only think important is wealth distribution and equalizing all results.

Originally Posted by Acajack

I get your view, and fully recognize it is a view that's out there, but I don't think this is true. Certainly not when it comes to the country, and probably not for the province either. Maybe I'll grant you the city, though.

70% of Ottawa are non-immigrants and another 10% or so immigrated as children so no the vast majority are not from elsewhere. In terms of being from outside of Ottawa or Ontario I am not sure of the numbers nor the relevance.

[Peenermcnoober]

I would argue the vast majority who use the name Alexandra bridge are oblivious to it's Imperial origin. It is a royalist minority who is not only aware of the connection but invested in it.

[Richard Eade]

By “Royalist minority”, I assume that you are including the thousands who crowd the core to get a glimpse of any member of the Royal family who visits our town.

Anyway, I wanted to comment on whether history matters – including to those who immigrate to this city. Have you thought about why they are immigrating to Ottawa? Why they study for, and take the oath, to become citizens of Canada?

What is built, and how it was built – both socially and physically – matters. Ask any indigenous person if their history didn’t matter to them when others immigrated to this land. (Hint – it did.) A country is not a ‘blank slate’, waiting for immigrants to come and make it into something that they imagine. (Unless they come in overwhelming numbers and with superior force, of course. But then that is an invasion and take-over.) Even early explorers of this country had to learn the languages and place names of areas that were controlled by existing inhabitants.

Way back in the late 1960s and early ‘70s, there was talk that the Geodesic Dome Home would be the future. It was the new ideal (although a 50-year-old concept). We had seen the last of the ‘conventional-looking’ homes built, said the enthusiastic youth who were captivated by something that was, obviously, so much better.

Except, people did not flock to the new style of house or building. There was a clear preference for the ‘historic’ look of what they believed a house should look like. Even now, 50 years later, most houses being built are remarkedly similar to what was the norm a hundred years ago.

History and traditions are what people seem to always go back to. It doesn’t matter if they are the best; they are a familiar touchstone. I am quite certain that the majority of First Nations’ people don’t actually want to revert to being restricted to stone implements, foraging for food, and have a 40% mortality rate before the first year of life. But they are upset because they lost their traditions and society, as they were overrun by others.

Little Italy got its name from the number of Italian immigrants who clustered there and started local businesses. It has been a long time, I think, since Italians were the majority living in the area; yet the name is still applied, and even boosted with official signs. Maybe that is a mistake. Perhaps we should go back further in time and rename Preston ‘Fire-Break Road’ in honor of the Great Fire. Or maybe change the name every year, based on an annual survey of the surrounding population.

And, yes, even new place names can become the new normal. The Palladium quickly took hold as the name of the new arena. So much so that many still call it that, despite three (or maybe even more) name changes. Pimisi was kind of a new name for a new LRT station. It will, likely, become the norm for the station, while the area is still called LeBreton Flats. (That is why the name Mooney’s Bay makes little sense for the old Confederation Heights station. A well-known area already exists with the Mooney’s Bay name – but the station is not within that area.)

By that same thinking, the new name for the new public library building might be OK. But Nepean Point, already had a well-known name. It will be a while before that changes, if ever. (Like lrt’s friend pointed out; how many people call the Hog’s Back Falls by its official name?) People use the name that resonates with them. If the majority use an old, traditional, name, then that will be the name that sticks.

History is important to give people a common thread. It might not be someone’s own history, but it will soon become part of their recent history as they adopt their new surroundings.