Hamilton City Centre | ? | 3x30 & 24 fl | Proposal

[Chronamut]

We're just so starved for ACTUAL craftsmanship that even something as kitschy as the city center is seen as better than the bland rectangles that are being built en masse everywhere - that and the lightbulb lined ribs of the atrium roof were really beautiful at christmastime when theyd turn them on. I remember being enthralled the first time I saw it.

[ScreamingViking]

It would definitely require a major redesign of the plan and a re-working of the budget. I don't think it needs to be "open-air" but what didn't work as a mall before probably won't work as a mall again even if attached to a bunch of condo units, so a new use would be needed for the atrium.

I would love an indoor garden to be the attraction. How to make that space a revenue generator would be a good question, but perhaps a partnership with the RBG could help with that?

The Art Gallery also has MANY pieces of art in storage... this space could be a suitable display area for them.

Move the Farmers' Market there. It would require much cooperation with the city, but maybe it would provide the space that is a complaint re: the redesigned market?

I think this is such a central great location that demands more than just what a developer can maximize for profit. The city could have stepped in and bought the damn thing, and then been able to dictate what happens with it. But in a different real estate market, maybe there are options that didn't exist 2-3 years ago? Particularly if the city is willing to trade off development features for atrium uses?

Originally Posted by mikevbar1

I'm not so sure the atrium is worth the effort of preserving here. I get why people want to retain part of this site, but this isn't exactly the old city hall being torn down. What I would be in favour of is re-incorporating architectural elements of the building, including material. But I fear some things will simply have to be re-engineered if we want to actually make this a better-used space than the mall was, and in my books that means a few things.

1. You'd basically have to create a budget 'The Well' as an open-air mall with a canopy roof. An indoor mall did not and will not work.

2. That means your open spaces will be alot more 'open' than they were/are in the mall, and the atrium will need to literally be "re-scaled" to make sense. This is the key issue; as an architectural component, it needs to work architecturally, and we are changing this site in a very dramatic way.

3. Likewise for the elevator, which could be tastefully redone if not updated.

Really I think there's an architect out there that could probably figure out what the best way to carry forward the mall into the new design is. That architect isn't me, but I'm not sold that is through strict preservation of the structure.

[Chronamut]

Yeah this spot definitely deserves more than what is being proposed - you don't get more "core of the city" than this. Only issue with those proposals is because this is core it also means its right in the heart of potential vandalism - whatever is proposed would need high security.

[BCTed]

Fitness centre, Rec Room / Dave & Buster's / arcade, casino, indoor golf course, renewed retail, escape room, axe throwing, whirlyball, another crack at a bowling alley, aquarium, car dealer, something to do downtown, I dunno.

[Chronamut]

Originally Posted by BCTed

Fitness centre, Rec Room / Dave & Buster's / arcade, casino, indoor golf course, renewed retail, escape room, axe throwing, whirlyball, another crack at a bowling alley, aquarium, car dealer, something to do downtown, I dunno.

Arcade/indoor gold course/casino would be awesome - casino would need like some sort of proof of income though to prevent welfare people from blowing all their money and becoming even poorer...

axe throwing we already have at the old capitol theatre entrance building farther down on king so that would be redundant - escape rooms have always felt a bit gimmicky to me so I dunno about that.. maybe lazer tag.. I miss lazer tag..

bowling alley didn't do so well.. aquarium would be AWESOME though but would involve some pretty high security since there are still the druggies and I'd hate for them to damage the exhibit..

car dealer has been done when it was eatons - the lot beside eatons was used as one I believe in the past.. fitness center seems like a waste in that location.

a playdium might be cool but that's more along the arcade lines - but yeah some high form of entertainment - high end retail MAYBE.. I mean the eatons center in toronto has managed to survive, theoretically we could as well..

not sure about the bowling alley though.. it would definitely have to be structured more like splitsville up on the mountain if it did exist.

[BCTed]

Originally Posted by Chronamut

Arcade/indoor gold course/casino would be awesome - casino would need like some sort of proof of income though to prevent welfare people from blowing all their money and becoming even poorer...

axe throwing we already have at the old capitol theatre entrance building farther down on king so that would be redundant - escape rooms have always felt a bit gimmicky to me so I dunno about that.. maybe lazer tag.. I miss lazer tag..

bowling alley didn't do so well.. aquarium would be AWESOME though but would involve some pretty high security since there are still the druggies and I'd hate for them to damage the exhibit..

car dealer has been done when it was eatons - the lot beside eatons was used as one I believe in the past.. fitness center seems like a waste in that location.

a playdium might be cool but that's more along the arcade lines - but yeah some high form of entertainment - high end retail MAYBE.. I mean the eatons center in toronto has managed to survive, theoretically we could as well..

not sure about the bowling alley though.. it would definitely have to be structured more like splitsville up on the mountain if it did exist.

Just hoping for some kind of additional attractions/destinations downtown. There is not much reason to go right now, and even if these City Centre IN8 condos get built, so what?

[HamiltonBoyInToronto]

Originally Posted by BCTed

Just hoping for some kind of additional attractions/destinations downtown. There is not much reason to go right now, and even if these City Centre IN8 condos get built, so what?

the bowling alley that was there was not a proper bowling alley
i think there was only a few lanes and it was nothing exciting

a proper bowling alley / arcades / lazer tag / hotels & restaurants would be fun

[Chronamut]

Originally Posted by BCTed

Just hoping for some kind of additional attractions/destinations downtown. There is not much reason to go right now, and even if these City Centre IN8 condos get built, so what?

This is EXACTLY the problem - everyones building condos downtown, but what are all these people gonna actually DO? (convention center/agh/stadium aside)

I want something like square one used to have, where they had the giant playdium - I want a reason to go downtown specifically for something to do I cannot do anywhere else that I can casually walk into - with all those people clustered downtown it's a great opportunity for something really sociable to allow people to interact and connect.

And yeah the bowling alley that was there was a joke - walked in once and it felt so.. weird inside. Kudos for them trying though. Some sort of casino like environment would be awesome there though, although I know the concept of a casino in hamilton has had it's.. challenges when presented in the past. Indoor amusement park would be awesome as well, but I think that area might be a bit small for that.. but we need SOMETHING, something to make us stand out in entertainment, esp since supercrawl and art crawls happen along this stretch..

The so what line is exactly it.

[ZTrade]

Originally Posted by Chronamut

This is EXACTLY the problem - everyones building condos downtown, but what are all these people gonna actually DO? (convention center/agh/stadium aside)

I want something like square one used to have, where they had the giant playdium - I want a reason to go downtown specifically for something to do I cannot do anywhere else that I can casually walk into - with all those people clustered downtown it's a great opportunity for something really sociable to allow people to interact and connect.

And yeah the bowling alley that was there was a joke - walked in once and it felt so.. weird inside. Kudos for them trying though. Some sort of casino like environment would be awesome there though, although I know the concept of a casino in hamilton has had it's.. challenges when presented in the past. Indoor amusement park would be awesome as well, but I think that area might be a bit small for that.. but we need SOMETHING, something to make us stand out in entertainment, esp since supercrawl and art crawls happen along this stretch..

The so what line is exactly it.

Art, restaurant, bar/club scene is good Downtown (although I think we could use a 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵 🞵🞵🞵🞵). More medium-high end shopping and something like Playdium as you suggested would be cool too. Although, there already is an arcade albeit a small one (Moody's).

[Chronamut]

Originally Posted by ZTrade

Art, restaurant, bar/club scene is good Downtown (although I think we could use a 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵 🞵🞵🞵🞵). More medium-high end shopping and something like Playdium as you suggested would be cool too. Although, there already is an arcade albeit a small one (Moody's).

🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵 🞵🞵🞵🞵 will never happen again - not only did they pretty much ban strip clubs they also banned neon to make the downtown appear less seedy. Used to be neon all down king st from the core.

restaurant would just be more of the same, but not the end of the world. We do have mansion nightclub in the core, but of course we used to have a lot more bars, but its hard to keep bars open these days.. we currently got mansion for straight and the well for gays..

We need the gold saucer lol - just a giant towering amusement park lol

it does beg the question of what is there these days to do that's actually entertaining - phones have taken over peoples lives for entertainment largely.

[TheHonestMaple]

The last thing we need is a Playdium downtown...

[Allroadsleadtoham]

We need more employed patrons downtown. I just moved downtown and it seems as if most folks are unemployed . The small businesses will follow.

[ScreamingViking]

Originally Posted by ZTrade

(although I think we could use a 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵 🞵🞵🞵🞵)

Not happening. Much like the predatory short-term lenders, once one closes it's done and gone per city policy. I don't think there are any strip clubs left in the city. The remaining one in the metro area (Solid Gold, in Burlington) is slated for the wrecking ball and a redevelopment, too.

30 years ago I probably felt differently. But today, it's a policy with which I agree.

Some of our "developers" have built a foundation on that line of business, and it disgusts me. The sooner those places are gone from the province, the better.

[ScreamingViking]

Originally Posted by Allroadsleadtoham

We need more employed patrons downtown. I just moved downtown and it seems as if most folks are unemployed . The small businesses will follow.

[Chronamut]

Originally Posted by Allroadsleadtoham

We need more employed patrons downtown. I just moved downtown and it seems as if most folks are unemployed . The small businesses will follow.

Yeah I second this - we have some serious deeper issues in this city that just bringing more people in is not going to fix.

[TheHonestMaple]

Originally Posted by Chronamut

Yeah I second this - we have some serious deeper issues in this city that just bringing more people in is not going to fix.

People moving downtown into new condos are employed, with generally high earning positions. I actually disagree, building more condos likely will solve a lot of downtown Hamilton's problems, as the businesses and offices will follow.

[Berklon]

Originally Posted by TheHonestMaple

People moving downtown into new condos are employed, with generally high earning positions. I actually disagree, building more condos likely will solve a lot of downtown Hamilton's problems, as the businesses and offices will follow.

I agree. How do we expect to get businesses/retails and corporations to set up shop downtown if there's no one there? Build more condos and that automatically puts more people downtown - employed people. Get enough people there and businesses can't ignore the base of customers. In turn, that attracts more people to move downtown and then more businesses will come. It's a self-sustaining mechanism. Eventually corporations will find the core attractive.

[Chronamut]

Yeah, except the problem is putting more people downtown has NOT fixed this problem. There are more businesses sitting empty in the core than have ever been before. People are not filling up these spaces, people are still working from home.

The issue is the image hamilton has. Many businesses don't want to be in the core anymore because of the "quality" of people downtown - people pooping in alleyways, shooting up and littering needles in alleyways, shouting and screaming randomly. That doesn't just leave overnight. I can't count howe many times I have heard people complaining they have to pick up used needles in the back of their businesses because of the methadone clinic - I've literally seen people go into alleyways squat and poop - there are public bathrooms! This is a mental health issue, we've ruined people over the past few generations.

We have turned the royal connaught into condos - the sunlife building, the pigott building, the acclamation building, you make it sound like we're magically going to be adding a bunch of people all at once and things are magically going to change - we already HAVE been, and things have not been changing. Admittedly king william has gotten better, but the gore park area has not.

People don't want to BE downtown because of what we have turned it into over the past 30 years. We have made it a place that is synonymous with poverty, drugs and sketchiness - which means those people aren't just going to magically disappear, just like they haven't along the stretch of king and caroline - they will still beg, they will now hassle these people who live down in the core, THAT is the issue that needs to be fixed, is our mental health issue. We have approached this issue several times on this forum. Businesses are not going to go where they don't feel safe. We need to fix what businesses are directly in the gore park area as that radiates out to the rest of the city - the gore was and always will be THE core of the city - if it is not healthy, the areas around it won't be by extension. At least they are actively working to rebuild many of them, but it still has a "everything is boarded up empty or collapsing" feeling.


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I encourage anyone here to just stay downtown in the summer along the stretch of king st between james and john, and just watch, for a whole day. You will get a feel for what happens in the core and why people are loathe to be in certain parts. I did that one day as I was helping out at the capitol theatre entrance when it was an art gallery, and you really get a sense for the type of people downtown, and the systematic issues it faces. Just visiting and going in and out won't truly allow you to experience this.

What's gonna happen is people are going to move into these places, get harassed, get bitter and then move out of them - there will be high turnover rates until the CULTURE of downtown changes. It has gotten a bit better - there are no longer scooter people everywhere and there aren't as MANY homeless unemployed or crazies downtown as there used to be, but the problem still persists. One only has to compare the gore of the 20s-say 70s or 80s to now to see how things have radically gone downhill.

We also have to think about what kind of businesses we WANT to be in the downtown core -they have to be businesses that people who live in these condos could actually earn an affordable living wage to actually live in, or we just become another bedroom community to places like toronto, although with working from home, commuting is becoming less of an issue. But we have a lot of work to do to fix our core regardless, and coffee shops and fast food places isn't gonna cut it. You say these people moving in have high paying wages, but are those high paying wages IN HAMILTON? Most are probably not, and instead are places like toronto. Do we want to be forever seen like a suburb of toronto? I hope not.. we are the only other major city that is old and has a functioning core, one would hope we could attract the same big businesses toronto can.. but with all the issues mentioned, I don't see it happening.. soon.

So thehonestmaple I still disagree with your disagreement - putting more people in isn't going to magically fix everything as it CURRENTLY isn't fixing everything - LARGE businesses don't find being downtown inviting, and until we fix that, we have a problem on our hands - it may provide a foundation for change, but we have some deeper rooted issues that need to be fixed first.

Case in point - there have been torontonians that have moved here, seeing the cheaper market, and eventually they moved back to toronto citing feeling unsafe in parts and there being a lack of things to do at night vs toronto. Remember the toronto chef that moved here that kept having his restaurant windows broken by vandals? yeah, we need to fix that - where people moving here to fix things up are seen as enemies and agents of gentrification.


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I love the fact we are building all these places, and that we are SLOWLY turning over the type of people that lived downtown to more of the types that USED to, but that change is slow, and erasing a rot that you have allowed to fester in takes time to weed out, and there is no kind way to describe what the downtown became other than a slow rot.

[Berklon]

Yes, there's still a lot of work to be done... and this all takes time.
Condos is the approach to take, but it's only one part of the equation. Making people feel safe is definitely something that needs to be done. We need more/better policing downtown.

I'd be curious to know which approach would work better.

[TheHonestMaple]

Very few people live in downtown Hamilton. yes, quite a lot live in Durand. But those are mostly lower income rentals. In the next 10-15 years the downtown is going to radically change with all the condos being built and the people they will bring.