Salt Lake City: Official Development News Thread - Part 5

[zurich]

Originally Posted by Ironweed

i would bet that most of them are locals who were born here. Incredibly closed minded and backward. It's really obnoxious.

I love the comments like.."just because we can do something, doesn't mean we should." To me, that about sums up our current American attitude that will drive us to third world status. Heck, in terms of transportation, we're already there. I know the Little Cottonwood Gondola is a sensitive topic, but I was always waiting for people to say no and their answer is always... "but what about the homeless?" Don't bury a train, focus on the homeless. Don't build the green loop, focus on the homeless. I just wish someone would come up with a reasonable argument. We really need to evolve as a society ... traveling to Austria, Europe.... witnessing the $6B rail project in Melbourne, it's really depressing to see how we just can't do anything anymore. Maybe for our Olympics, we'll get a 200-yard light rail extension and a few new bleachers and new paint - but I am sure, even with those tiny investments, there will be a slew of protestors.

[RC14]

^
They will probably invest all the Olympic money into the Point.

[Paniolo Man]

Originally Posted by zurich

I love the comments like.."just because we can do something, doesn't mean we should." To me, that about sums up our current American attitude that will drive us to third world status. Heck, in terms of transportation, we're already there. I know the Little Cottonwood Gondola is a sensitive topic, but I was always waiting for people to say no and their answer is always... "but what about the homeless?" Don't bury a train, focus on the homeless. Don't build the green loop, focus on the homeless. I just wish someone would come up with a reasonable argument. We really need to evolve as a society ... traveling to Austria, Europe.... witnessing the $6B rail project in Melbourne, it's really depressing to see how we just can't do anything anymore. Maybe for our Olympics, we'll get a 200-yard light rail extension and a few new bleachers and new paint - but I am sure, even with those tiny investments, there will be a slew of protestors.

Most of the people who make arguments like that are just throwing out a red herring. They don't actually want to help the homeless, or whatever other cause they throw around.

I am anti-gondola and pro a lot of other things, but I get really annoyed when people use arguments like that. I know so many people in Utah (mostly relatives) who dump all over infrastructure projects by whining about how many people we could help with that money, then they turn around and complain about the scary socialists in the Salt Lake Valley trying to provide services to those in need.

Why are we doing X when we could do Y instead?

Why are we doing Y? Are we becoming communists?

[TheGeographer]

Originally Posted by Comrade

lol the KSL comments section is the 10th circle of hell.

Haha yes it is. I agree with Bob I should not have read them for my own self care, but it was also something else to see what the “average” Utahn thinks of the Rio Grande plan

[Enemy4thePeople]

I think people bring up homelessness as a counter to spending 3-8 billion dollars on infrastructure with speculative benefits is because we already have systems in place to manage and mitigate the existence of rail crossings, while homelessness is a pervasive quality of life issue for everyone who lives downtown, east and west, including the homeless and the systems we have in place to manage this are far more inadequate.

Sure, we can do both, but RGP advocates aren't talking about doing both. How about they say all tax revenue from the RG district will go to homeless services and some portion of land will be dedicated to rehousing developments?

And in reality, all the property the RGP will free up will mostly be a land grab for rich developers and large landowners, while the new developments will just be more space for the homeless to occupy. It's just the never ending parade of money chasing money rather than money addressing pressing human interests.

[Atlas]

Speaking of zero-sum thinking

The real threat to the Rio Grande Plan is zero-sum thinking

Maybe we should also be pushing "The Point" to pick up some slack on the homelessness issue?

[Paniolo Man]

Originally Posted by Atlas

Speaking of zero-sum thinking

The real threat to the Rio Grande Plan is zero-sum thinking

Maybe we should also be pushing "The Point" to pick up some slack on the homelessness issue?

Draper has already shown their true colors on the subject of helping their less fortunate neighbors:

Draper pulls shelter sites after hundreds protest, boo homeless man

Residents packed an open house in the auditorium of Draper Park Middle School on Wednesday night to protest Walker's offer of sites at the soon-to-be-relocated Utah State Prison and at 15001 Minuteman Drive.

The group, which poured out the door of the school's 700-person-capacity auditorium, booed as Lawrence Horman called for compassion for homeless residents.

Horman told the group he was homeless. He lives in an orange shipping trailer with electricity from a nearby power pole on a commercial lot, he told The Tribune. The audience booed him as he called for patience.

[Enemy4thePeople]

Originally Posted by Atlas

Speaking of zero-sum thinking

Zero sum thinking is either we solve homelessness or we do RGP, so how is saying we can do both zero sum thinking? And sure, add the Point to this too if possible.

[Atlas]

Originally Posted by Enemy4thePeople

Zero sum thinking is either we solve homelessness or we do RGP, so how is saying we can do both zero sum thinking? And sure, add the Point to this too if possible.

Sorry, misread your comment.

But I don't really think it's productive for the boosters of the RGP to get tangled up with homelessness issues. It's already hard enough communicating what the RGP is about and adding even more complexity, as well as direct comparisons to the unfortunately-named "Operation Rio Grande", won't do it any favors. On the other side, the city and state should certainly have an integrated approach to the RGP and homelessness and I hope the land use planning will reflect that (unlike "The Point").

Like The Point, the land doesn't necessarily have to be sold wholesale to developers (e.g. 99-year ground leases). I hope to see some of it retained and some of it sold to promote higher-density home ownership.

[RC14]

Originally Posted by zurich

Don't build the green loop, focus on the homeless. I just wish someone would come up with a reasonable argument.

When it comes to the Green Loop, I do see the homeless issue as being relevant. I am currently working next to the Folsom trail. Things have gotten allot better the last few months but for a long time, the situation was out of control. Residents in the neighborhood did not feel safe and for good reason, and it seemed like the city didn't care.
Whenever someone suggests building more public/open space my immediate thought is "what prevents this from becoming just another homeless camp?" Part of the green loop pitch is that parents should feel safe letting their 4 year old ride her tricycle down the street. They are focusing entirely on cars when they say this, but as a father of a 4 y/o, and given the things I have seen at work, my concern is more the wacked out crazy people on drugs throughing rocks at people and things like that that I have seen.

[Atlas]

Originally Posted by bob rulz

On another note, I haven't seen anyone mention this yet, but the Planning Commission denied the project that replaced the Moda Luxe. For those who may not remember, it was proposed to cap out under the 100' minimum for D-1 zoning. This shows me that they may be learning from the travesty that is The Randi just to the north of it.

Count me as surprised, but I am glad they did it. There really is no point to the zoning regulations if they don't enforce them. Kinda stings for the designers, I am sure, but hopefully they come back with something more appropriate for the area. They have a perfectly good Moda Luxe design sitting around somewhere.

Great new shots from Scott Taylor's drone: (more in the link)

[Orlando]

Originally Posted by Paniolo Man

Draper has already shown their true colors on the subject of helping their less fortunate neighbors:

Draper pulls shelter sites after hundreds protest, boo homeless man

Wow. This is sad. SLC shouldn't have to bear the sole responsibility of providing for the homeless. Shame on you heartless & ignorant NIMBY's!

[zurich]

Originally Posted by RC14

When it comes to the Green Loop, I do see the homeless issue as being relevant. I am currently working next to the Folsom trail. Things have gotten allot better the last few months but for a long time, the situation was out of control. Residents in the neighborhood did not feel safe and for good reason, and it seemed like the city didn't care.
Whenever someone suggests building more public/open space my immediate thought is "what prevents this from becoming just another homeless camp?" Part of the green loop pitch is that parents should feel safe letting their 4 year old ride her tricycle down the street. They are focusing entirely on cars when they say this, but as a father of a 4 y/o, and given the things I have seen at work, my concern is more the wacked out crazy people on drugs throughing rocks at people and things like that that I have seen.

Valid point. But then, we go right back to doing nothing. IMO, the green loop leads to more pedestrians and a vibrant, walkable downtown. Which then leads to additional shops, bars, restaurants, etc. Hundreds of active people with a few homeless is a better/safer option vs a dead, dark corner with poor lighting and a large homeless population. As a developed nation, it's pathetic that we have such a high homeless population and since this is huge issue in every large city, I think it's our Federal government's responsibility to change this by providing millions to each city.. but they won't. We need creative ways, like providing jobs... offering work to plant trees, creating mini shelters all over the place so they are more accessible and no one will protest, since we're only talking about a few. Sorry for turning this into a homeless conversation...

[RC14]

Valid point about more pedestrians and vibrancy. To be clear, I am in favor of the Green Loop, I just want it done in a way that it doesn't become another Gallivan Plaza, Folsom Trail, Jordon River Trail or Main Library etc.

[bob rulz]

I think we've gotten better at designing public spaces since the Gallivan Plaza days. The great thing about the Green Loop is it's going to be placed on the streets, where people are already walking, where people should be around relatively frequently.

Also, the Folsom Trail still runs through a relatively underdeveloped part of town, and it doesn't yet connect to the Jordan River Trail so it doesn't serve as the connection it needs to be yet. This limits its usefulness as a cut-through trail or a connection to the greater trail system. Give it time, it will get there.

Also the Jordan River Trail is huge. Expecting every portion of it to be busy enough to mitigate the homeless issue might be an unrealistic expectation.

[delts145]

Love those Scott Taylor shots! Thanks for posting Atlas.

[DCRes]

Great new shots from Scott Taylor's drone: (more in the link)


[/QUOTE]


For all those who have ever wondered what a 550-600 footer would look like, the crane sticking out above Astra gives a pretty good idea.

[msbutah]

I just walked by the Utah Theatre hole and someone (the city?) is putting a new roof on the empty barber/twisted roots building. Guess it's not going anywhere soon, and they don't want it to rot away in the winter.

[Atlas]

Originally Posted by msbutah

I just walked by the Utah Theatre hole and someone (the city?) is putting a new roof on the empty barber/twisted roots building. Guess it's not going anywhere soon, and they don't want it to rot away in the winter.

Ah, well that's really too bad. I wonder if the city is exploring its options for taking the parcels back from Hines. The developer owes us a status update on this.

Originally Posted by DCRes

For all those who have ever wondered what a 550-600 footer would look like, the crane sticking out above Astra gives a pretty good idea.

I'd say we are more than ready for such a tower. However, market forces don't seem to be favorable at the moment, and "The Point" is getting set to suck office (especially tech) interest away from downtown for the foreseeable future. The Big League Utah renderings this week will be interesting though.

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Has anyone seen the news on the new 134 floor, 1,750ft proposal in OKC? Such a building would be way out of context in SLC (and OKC) but apparently it's been generating a LOT of interest online. SLC developers take note:

Originally Posted by The ATX

This project is getting crazy attention. I posted a rendering and the link to the Oklahoman article about it on my X feed and got a million views in 24 hours.

The OKC renderings there remind me of the leaked West Quarter Block D renderings, with the Jazz practice facility and such. It would be great to see a 500+ ft building there instead of more 300-400ft ones.

[Orlando]

Originally Posted by Atlas

.
The Big League Utah renderings this week will be interesting though.

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What? How do you know these are going to be released this week?