Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Charles de Gaulle on the balcony of Montreal City Hall braying "Vive le Quebec libre!!!

He wasn't braying. He was responding to the cries from the crowd. That's what they wanted to hear, whether it pleases you or not.

Last week I was reading the introduction of a book about the history of Canada written by a French guy who moved to Montréal, and this is the story he tells in the introduction. It should give you food for thought.

I translate:

No sooner had I settled in Montréal in August 2013 than a renowned Québécois lawyer told me in no uncertain terms this: "You want to write a 'History of Canada'? Why do you not write a 'History of Québec' instead? Canada doesn't exist. Or, more precisely, it exists only because and thanks to Québec. Without Québec those immense impersonal and interchangeable territories would only form a vague dependency of the United States, to which they dream, more or less consciously, to tie themselves [plug themselves into; the guy said "s'arrimer aux Etats-Unis" in French]."

He added: "Here, the Anglophones suffer from a double complex: on the one hand, they possess neither the culture, nor the history, nor the elegance of the British; on the other hand, they don't weigh much in front of US businessmen. As you say in the French of France, they have "their ass between two chairs". They have become transparent at best, and inconsistent at worst. Look at Toronto: it's a city that just doesn't recover from not being born a US city. Robert Charlebois already sang it in the 1970s. And Vancouver: one goes there to speak English with some Chinese people under the rain. In fact, isn't Canada, like French Guiana, the only American land that has still kept a European allegiance, perhaps only symbolic, but still well displayed?"

I might well have replied that my first impressions were noticeably different, that I felt on the contrary a strong identity in the Canadian people, visible in numerous signs of a shared belonging, in particular those solemn and moving ceremonies of the oath of citizenship, that the link with the British crown anchored the country in History without threatening its own personality, my counterpart would simply not let go of it: "You've just arrived. We'll talk about it in a few months again, and then, you'll have understood."

Did Canada exist more to foreigners than to its nationals, the former having formed an image of a country that the latter would reject?

And then the book continues...

You can find the book here: https://books.google.fr/books?id=e1OyDwA...0avocat&hl=fr&pg=PP1#v=onepage&q&f=false

[Nashe]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

You can find the book here: https://books.google.fr/books?id=e1OyDwA...0avocat&hl=fr&pg=PP1#v=onepage&q&f=false

I might check it out. The summary sounds a lot more balanced and compelling than the recent dialogue here. I had no idea France held Canada in such high esteem.

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

He wasn't braying. He was responding to the cries from the crowd. That's what they wanted to hear, whether it pleases you or not.

Last week I was reading the introduction of a book about the history of Canada written by a French guy who moved to Montréal, and this is the story he tells in the introduction. It should give you food for thought.

I translate:


And then the book continues...

You can find the book here: https://books.google.fr/books?id=e1OyDwA...0avocat&hl=fr&pg=PP1#v=onepage&q&f=false

Is that where you get the impression of Quebec?
Just trying to understand the sentiments behind your comments.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

Is that where you get the impression of Quebec?
Just trying to understand the sentiments behind your comments.

It seems like New Brisavoine gets his impressions on Quebec from Québécois themselves, either in the traditional media or on social media.

As I've said before, most of what he says isn't really outlandish if he said it to people here in Quebec. While not shared by everyone these are extremely common takes on politics and history in this province. Remember that this is a province where the PQ is currently first in the polls and the CAQ has a strong majority government. The only party in Quebec that truly espouses the reality and vision of Quebec espoused by the SSP majority is the PLQ, and they're around 15% in the polls, and barely 5% among francophones.

So it's funny how all of the ROCers here think he's completely out of touch. He really isn't that much.

[MolsonExport]

That's very convenient.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

He wasn't braying. He was responding to the cries from the crowd. That's what they wanted to hear, whether it pleases you or not.

Last week I was reading the introduction of a book about the history of Canada written by a French guy who moved to Montréal, and this is the story he tells in the introduction. It should give you food for thought.

I translate:


And then the book continues...

You can find the book here: https://books.google.fr/books?id=e1OyDwA...0avocat&hl=fr&pg=PP1#v=onepage&q&f=false

It's one person's take. I'd have to read the book to get a better idea.

Canada has many qualities. More than most countries. (And that Québécois lawyer's take is also harsh and biased BTW.)

But still, this is not how I would describe the contemporary Canadian soul in a nutshell in an introduction:

"...that I felt on the contrary a strong identity in the Canadian people, visible in numerous signs of a shared belonging, in particular those solemn and moving ceremonies of the oath of citizenship, that the link with the British crown anchored the country in History without threatening its own personality..."

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

That's very convenient.

Yo wut?

[Nashe]

Originally Posted by Acajack

So it's funny how all of the ROCers here think he's completely out of touch. He really isn't that much.

Understanding is a three-edged sword, after all. All of the perspectives are helpful to me, at least.

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Yo wut?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Nashe

Understanding is a three-edged sword, after all. All of the perspectives are helpful to me, at least.

That's a smart and mature way of approaching the world.

[MolsonExport]

De Gaulle actively pro-separatist, book says

De Gaulle had a lot of gall coming to Canada (on our 100th anniversary as a nation-state) and putting wind into the sails of the separatists. Not even a quarter century before, thousands of Canadian lives were sacrificed to free his country from the Nazis.

And then he went on to state that Trudeau (père) was the enemy of French Canadians: "Nous n'avons aucune concession, ni même aucune amabilité, à faire à M. Trudeau, qui est l'adversaire de la chose française au Canada"

The pomposity and ego of this man knows no bounds.

Double standard arrogant prick:

In 1969, de Gaulle visited Brittany, during which, in Quimper, he declaimed a poem written by his uncle (also called Charles de Gaulle) in the Breton language, expressing devotion to Breton culture. The speech, well received by the crowd, followed a series of crackdowns on Breton nationalism. He was accused of double standards for, on the one hand demanding a free Quebec, while on the other oppressing the movement in Brittany. During this Quimper speech, he replied to this criticism that Brittany was free and had been freed by Bretons and other French forces during the Liberation, reminding them that the Resistance was more intense in Brittany than in any other part of France, and that many Bretons had joined the Free French Forces

And the airport that carries his name is one of the worst in Europe.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

And then he went on to state that Trudeau (père) was the enemy of French Canadians: "Nous n'avons aucune concession, ni même aucune amabilité, à faire à M. Trudeau, qui est l'adversaire de la chose française au Canada"
.

On that one at least, history may end up proving the old General right.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

It is fascinating and touching to see the former colonials still supporting their old motherland to the max. I wonder whether the Québécois would be so supportive of France.


How do you say hypocrite in English?

My, but you are a rude, unpleasant individual, eh?

What you might interpret as ‘supporting the motherland’ is just the most factual way I can communicate history that I’ve read or heard from many many sources. I’m sorry if it doesn’t align with the story that you want to believe.

It’s quite amusing to read your accusations of hypocrisy while you in fact are doing that which you accuse me of. Sorry, but it’s hard to take you seriously when you keep flinging merde like this. I respect Acajack and his support for you makes me want to consider the points that you put out there, but there are too many holes in your assertions, and then you double down on your rudeness and disdain for ‘anglos’ that just makes your posts one-sided nonsense.

I’m sure you will follow this up with a snappy insult. Fire away, but know it will it will be valued as much as the rest of your posts. (Care to guess how much that is?)

[MonctonRad]

De Gaulle did indeed have unusual temerity making those comments on an official visit, and to a country which had recently sacrificed tens of thousands of its youth to free his own country from Nazi tyranny.

Imagine if JT, on a visit to China delivered an official speech on Tiananmen Square to the effect of "Long live a free and democratic Taiwan. Canada will always stand in support of the struggle of the Taiwanese people against Chinese communist oppression!!"

I wonder if Emperor Xi would have JT shot on the spot, or would allow him to just leave the country under heavy military escort.

De Gaulle = asshole. None of the western allies could stand the prick during WW2.

[MolsonExport]

yes, the old general. Was he proven right about Algeria?

De Gaulle raised the hopes of the pied-noir and the professional military, disaffected by the indecisiveness of previous governments, with his exclamation of "Vive l'Algérie française [fr]" ("Long live French Algeria") to cheering crowds in Mostaganem.

Hypocrite.

[Dengler Avenue]

Or did De Gaule assume that the sentiment from Conscription Crisis during WWI got carried into WWII as well?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

yes, the old general. Was he proven right about Algeria?



Hypocrite.

As I alluded to, the jury is still out on what I referred to, but still... does someone need to be right about everything all the time, or can he be right about certain things and wrong about others?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

Or did De Gaule assume that the sentiment from Conscription Crisis during WWI got carried into WWII as well?

There was also a conscription crisis during WW2 in Canada.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

My, but you are a rude, unpleasant individual, eh?

What you might interpret as ‘supporting the motherland’ is just the most factual way I can communicate history that I’ve read or heard from many many sources. I’m sorry if it doesn’t align with the story that you want to believe.

It’s quite amusing to read your accusations of hypocrisy while you in fact are doing that which you accuse me of. Sorry, but it’s hard to take you seriously when you keep flinging merde like this. I respect Acajack and his support for you makes me want to consider the points that you put out there, but there are too many holes in your assertions, and then you double down on your rudeness and disdain for ‘anglos’ that just makes your posts one-sided nonsense.

I’m sure you will follow this up with a snappy insult. Fire away, but know it will it will be valued as much as the rest of your posts. (Care to guess how much that is?)

Maybe New Brisavoine's provocative nature should be put down to "cultural differences"? We Canadians are supposed to be really good at accepting those!

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Maybe New Brisavoine's provocative nature should be put down to "cultural differences"? We Canadians are supposed to be really good at accepting those!

Absolutely. Or, he could just be a pompous ass. Canada has its fair share of those as well… but they don’t/shouldn’t be considered representative of the country as a whole.

As far as being accepting of cultural differences, sure, but one has a right to see things from their own perspective as well (as you are well aware and practice here regularly). That’s what I’m doing these days - appreciating the value of my own culture, while trying to learn from others. That’s where mutual respect comes from, as opposed to whatever New B is trying to accomplish…

It’s all in fun, though. If this stops being fun I can find a better use for my time….