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  #6101  
Old Posted Dec 13, 2023, 7:58 PM
New Brisavoine New Brisavoine is offline
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FWIW, if it weren’t for Churchill you would probably be arguing that Canadians should be speaking German, the language of the master race!
Ah, that old trope! It is the Soviets who destroyed the Third Reich (with the help of US industry). The British were admirable in 1940, but truth is, even if they had been defeated and occupied like France, Hitler would probably have been defeated anyway by Stalin, for the same reasons he was defeated in actual history.

And German is a beautiful language, by the way.
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  #6102  
Old Posted Dec 13, 2023, 8:09 PM
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And German is a beautiful language, by the way.
And how do you feel about the English language?

I have joked myself that English is nothing more than bad French spoken by a German, but, I suspect you personally would have a much more cynical viewpoint on the language of Shakespeare than my own quip.

Who would win in a prosaic showdown? Shakespeare or Moliere???
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  #6103  
Old Posted Dec 13, 2023, 8:11 PM
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I normally am not part of the PC police, but the term "indian" seems so out of touch (and has been for awhile) for describing indigenous in the anglo world, I felt compelled to mention it. I didn't realize it was still widely used by francophones.

I appreciate the context - it's these little bits of cultural knowledge that one might never know about without this type of discussion.
My American friends always say "natives Indians". In French (in Europe) most people say "les Indiens" in casual speech, and "les Amérindiens" or "les Indiens d'Amérique" in formal speech. The one term that is now eschewed is "les Peaux Rouges", which was very used until the middle of the 20th century. And more anciently, until the early 19th century, the most frequent term was of course "les sauvages", or more specifically "les sauvages d'Amérique", which people did not conceive as a derogatory term (think of Rousseau's "bon sauvage").
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  #6104  
Old Posted Dec 13, 2023, 8:18 PM
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I have noticed more and more Americans using the term indigenous recently when referencing native Americans. The idea of First Nations however still eludes them.
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  #6105  
Old Posted Dec 13, 2023, 8:19 PM
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I have joked myself that English is nothing more than bad French spoken by a German, but, I suspect you personally would have a much more cynical viewpoint on the language of Shakespeare than my own quip.
That's actually Georges Clemenceau's famous quip: "L'anglais ? Ce n'est jamais que du français mal prononcé."

Clemenceau was himself one of the rare fluent English speakers among French elites back then (due to the fact he lived in the US in his youth).
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  #6106  
Old Posted Dec 13, 2023, 8:21 PM
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I have noticed more and more Americans using the term indigenous recently when referencing native Americans. The idea of First Nations however still eludes them.
Even if Indigenous nations can exist across the Canada-USA border, "First Nations" is basically a Canadianism that has little relevance outside of this country's legal and constitutional framework. So it's not surprising that Americans don't use it.
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  #6107  
Old Posted Dec 13, 2023, 8:31 PM
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My American friends always say "natives Indians". In French (in Europe) most people say "les Indiens" in casual speech, and "les Amérindiens" or "les Indiens d'Amérique" in formal speech. The one term that is now eschewed is "les Peaux Rouges", which was very used until the middle of the 20th century. And more anciently, until the early 19th century, the most frequent term was of course "les sauvages", or more specifically "les sauvages d'Amérique", which people did not conceive as a derogatory term (think of Rousseau's "bon sauvage").
Pretty sure "les sauvages" was regularly used by people my parents' age (70s-80s) for Indigenous people when they were growing up. It was definitely an ugly-sounding term but as you say was probably not intended to be as mean as it sounds to 2023 ears.

I could definitely picture someone in 1947 saying: "Mon fils est chanceux car il est marié avec une belle sauvagesse. Toute la famille l'adore. C'est une femme magnifique sur toute la ligne."

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  #6108  
Old Posted Dec 13, 2023, 8:48 PM
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Who would win in a prosaic showdown? Shakespeare or Moliere???
I've always found Shakespeare a bit of a bore (although he has some great lines here and there for sure). His language is honestly hard to access, and most people struggle to understand what is meant. It's also a bit too serious.

Molière, on the other hand, is frankly hilarious. When you go watch a play by Molière you have a good time. His language is also closer to today's language, so more accessible than Shakespeare English. Also, many plays by Molière were in fact musical comedies (something which was forgotten for a long time, people only recited his text but forgot it was made to be accompanied by music and singing, but it has been rediscovered in the past 20 years). A few years ago I went to watch the resurrected 17th century version of Le Bourgeois gentilhomme with my sister in Paris, by a company that meticulously rediscovered and recreated all the music and dances, not just reciting the text of the play, and they went even as far as pronouncing the words as actors in the 17th century would have done it, also using real candles to light the stage as they did in the 17th century, and frankly it was 3 hours of stunning and wonderful spectacle. We left the theater 'avec des étoiles plein les yeux' as we say in French. I doubt I would ever leave a Shakespeare's play 'avec des étoiles plein les yeux' (although I quite enjoyed A Midsummer Night's Dream with Rupert Everett for sure).

That's one of the most famous music from that play (Marche des Turcs, by Lully). For 300 years people had forgotten that Molière's plays were meant to have music, singing and dancing, and they only recited "dry" plays with only text. A bit the way we forget Greek statues were painted and not white. Now all that Baroque extravagance is being rediscovered. Le Malade imaginaire is another play that was meant to be more a musical comedy than just a play.

Video Link


This is another one, from the 18th century by Rameau, since we were talking about the "Indians". This is the famous dance and song called "les Sauvages" (the word I explained). It enjoyed immense success in Paris in the 1730s, at a time when, well, Canada was still French. The play is called "Les Indes galantes", which litterally means "The Romantic Indies", Indies as in "North America". A vision of the "good savage" in the forests of New France.

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This version doesn't have the dancing, but the singing is far superior (and the best you'll find anywhere). Two very brilliant singers.

Video Link
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  #6109  
Old Posted Dec 13, 2023, 9:10 PM
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I could definitely picture someone in 1947 saying: "Mon fils est chanceux car il est marié avec une belle sauvagesse. Toute la famille l'adore. C'est une femme magnifique sur toute la ligne."
Interesting. "Sauvagesse" was not used in Europe. We would say "une belle sauvage". Or "une belle sauvageonne", but that word doesn't refer to the savages of North America, but to a lady of unspecified race who is a bit "wild" ("sauvageonne" can be either derogatory or charming, depending on context and what the person means).

"Sauvage" would never have been used in Europe in 1947 (except in a historical context, such as a historian on French radio in 1947 could have said "Le premier contact de Jacques Cartier avec les sauvages d'Amérique etc.").

"Négresse", however was very used (I've always found that word rather ugly). It's not used anymore, although a famous band from the early 1990s was called "Les Négresses vertes" (don't know if they made it in Québec). The days when French music was good and crazy in a nice way...

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Same era there is this one which you may know better (he was very popular in France at the time). I've rediscovered it recently (hadn't listened to it in ages!). Much better than your recently deceased "Cowboys Fringants" singer, which I found rather boring honestly.

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"La preuve en est nos beaux soldats
américains qui sont là-bas
bronzés à la vitamine D
nourris aux fibres équilibrées
les mort qui seront faits là-bas
seront en bonne santé je crois."
I love that bit. America hasn't changed much in 30 years, have they!
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  #6110  
Old Posted Dec 13, 2023, 9:44 PM
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Yes I know Les Négresses Vertes. (And of course I know Jean Leloup.)

Les Négresses are a bit of a cult thing here. Not entirely mainstream but it's not hard to find people who know them.

This is their song that I am most familiar with. Though I also know the other one you posted.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CkufroM0ISw
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  #6111  
Old Posted Dec 13, 2023, 9:56 PM
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This is their song that I am most familiar with. Though I also know the other one you posted.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CkufroM0ISw
I had never heard it. It's not well-know here.

Their two most famous songs here are the one I posted, and this one (but I prefer "Voilà l'été" personally... the song radios here always play when summer comes):

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  #6112  
Old Posted Dec 14, 2023, 12:59 AM
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Ah, that old trope! It is the Soviets who destroyed the Third Reich (with the help of US industry). The British were admirable in 1940, but truth is, even if they had been defeated and occupied like France, Hitler would probably have been defeated anyway by Stalin, for the same reasons he was defeated in actual history.

And German is a beautiful language, by the way.
Actually, Churchill was secretly making deals with Roosevelt when the American public still wanted to stay neutral. The Japanese drew them in, but in truth they were already involved, because of Churchill.

One could say that Hitler defeated himself, but let's not forget that good ol' France were able to hold them off for something like 15 minutes?
     
     
  #6113  
Old Posted Dec 14, 2023, 1:02 AM
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This thread has gone a little off track (partially my fault).

I'll check back in when we are no longer hearing everything from France's point of view and actually talk about Quebec again...
     
     
  #6114  
Old Posted Dec 14, 2023, 1:18 AM
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One could say that Hitler defeated himself, but let's not forget that good ol' France were able to hold them off for something like 15 minutes?
It’s not for nothing that the royal standard of France beginning in the 17th century was a plain white flag. .
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  #6115  
Old Posted Dec 14, 2023, 1:25 AM
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Of course Jean Leloup is much better than the Cowboys Fringants. Their average song is crap. “En Berne” is pretty good though (and hits the nail on the head, IMO; it’s by far my favorite song of theirs.) Conversely, you can take anything by Leloup and it’s guaranteed to be decent at the very least.
     
     
  #6116  
Old Posted Dec 14, 2023, 1:29 AM
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A troll with no skin in the game either. He can agitate for dissolution of the confederation and not deal with the fallout or economic consequences. He can simply sit back in his chair in Paris and chortle with glee over the misery in Canada. Good for New Brisavione.
FYI, your posts are 100x more likely than his to convince me to vote PQ next election/yes in a third referendum, than his :p
     
     
  #6117  
Old Posted Dec 14, 2023, 4:15 AM
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FYI, your posts are 100x more likely than his to convince me to vote PQ next election/yes in a third referendum, than his :p
New Brisavoine brings out the worst in me. He is an agent provocateur of the highest order, and an enemy of peaceful coexistence and the Canadian enterprise. He is Charles de Gaulle on the balcony of Montreal City Hall braying "Vive le Quebec libre!!! He is actively promoting the destruction of a country not his own, and purely for his own personal entertainment.
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  #6118  
Old Posted Dec 14, 2023, 4:59 AM
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Pretty sure "les sauvages" was regularly used by people my parents' age (70s-80s) for Indigenous people when they were growing up. It was definitely an ugly-sounding term but as you say was probably not intended to be as mean as it sounds to 2023 ears.

I could definitely picture someone in 1947 saying: "Mon fils est chanceux car il est marié avec une belle sauvagesse. Toute la famille l'adore. C'est une femme magnifique sur toute la ligne."

I've heard those terms used among francophones here well into the 1980s and maybe a bit into the 1990s. Obviously now that our city is at least 15% Indigenous we don't hear those terms anymore. I also remember a francophone friend who sometime around 1990 played the piano piece called "Le petit nègre" by Claude Debussy for a recital that I attended but his parents were teachers and made sure the actual name wasn't used. So I think the program had "Le petit héro" or something like that.
     
     
  #6119  
Old Posted Dec 14, 2023, 6:41 AM
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Actually, Churchill was secretly making deals with Roosevelt when the American public still wanted to stay neutral. The Japanese drew them in, but in truth they were already involved, because of Churchill.

One could say that Hitler defeated himself, but let's not forget that good ol' France were able to hold them off for something like 15 minutes?
It is fascinating and touching to see the former colonials still supporting their old motherland to the max. I wonder whether the Québécois would be so supportive of France.

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Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark View Post
This thread has gone a little off track (partially my fault).

I'll check back in when we are no longer hearing everything from France's point of view and actually talk about Quebec again...
How do you say hypocrite in English?
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  #6120  
Old Posted Dec 14, 2023, 6:47 AM
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Of course Jean Leloup is much better than the Cowboys Fringants. Their average song is crap.
Yeah, I had never heard about the Cowboys Fringants before reading about them in this thread, gave it a try, and well, it's... really not my style. But then I didn't want to offend anyone, so didn't say anything.

The only good thing that came out of Québec recently was Coeur de pirate, but she doesn't seem to be singing anymore.
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