Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

The Belgians? The two language groups Hate each other.

Maybe that is just what the agent provocateur, New Brisavoine, wants to incite here.

Some folks are not happy unless they can make others as miserable as they are (and then, are they really ever happy?).

I'm still puzzling over an anglo-hating member creating a forum name with an English word in it, but who am I to question?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Acadia University ≠ Université d'Acadie

For the same reason, Université catholique de Louvain ≠ Katholieke Universiteit Leuven.

I know, it's a bit complicated, but you should get used to it. The Belgians do.

Canadians have trouble with the concept of language territoriality, which the Belgians apply. (And the Swiss apply quite strictly.)

Though Quebec has tried to push Canada in that direction, with partial success, since the 1970s.

Basically Canada holds on to a sometimes rigorous, sometimes half-assed bilingualism with English and French supposed to be available from coast to coast, which satisfies fewer and fewer people at this point.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

the indigenous, they continued to raid English settlements (and kill settlers), acting as agents for the French essentially. There were many English settlers murdered by the indigenous

Someone's terrorist is someone else's freedom fighter. Guess why the Amerindians attacked more the English settlements than the French settlements (which were largely at peace with the Indians after the 1701 Great Peace of Montréal)... The Amerindians must surely have had their reasons, right?

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Canadians have trouble with the concept of language territoriality, which the Belgians apply. (And the Swiss apply quite strictly.)

Though Quebec has tried to push Canada in that direction, with partial success, since the 1970s.

Apparently for some members here, language territoriality is:

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

Hate

Of course it is no coincidence that those who apparently abhor language territoriality belong to the dominant language group, the one that would dominate and eventually erase the minority language group if pure Darwinist factors were at play. It's a bit reminiscent of how large corporations greatly dislike and try to kill protectionist laws that protect smaller companies. Let the free forces of competition and the 'invisible hand' of the market take care of everything! No government interference!

[jje1000]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

nah, it is more about the extremely tedious manner that New Brisavoine lectures people living in Canada/Quebec, with his extremely selective historical accounts and distorted "What if" scenarios, deliberately construed so as to make English people beyond the pale (never mind France's rather sordid colonialism). He has an AXA to grind, for sure.

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

You did not understand (which is not surprising considering your attitude in this thread). The people living in the French Basque Country largely come from the rest of France, not from foreign countries. The number of people living in Québec and born in the ROC is very small. That's why people speak of "two solitudes". In France, the French Basque Country, Brittany, and even Corsica, have a very high level of integration with the rest of the country. Large percentages of their residents were born in the rest of France. In Corsica for example, 30% of residents were born in the rest of France.

In Québec the percentage of residents born in the ROC is very small, less than 5%, and most of them are Francophones like Acajack, not Anglophones.

It's a fascinating commentary from L'Hexagone that prehaps speaks to a certain cultural blindspot.

What happened throughout the conquest and consolidation of Continental France is the ultimately the endstate of the formation of the nation-state- perhaps comparable to the ongoing Han settlement of China's western territories and the Turkish migration into Northern Cyprus. Breton, Basque, Occitant, Norman, etc. are spoken of as dead languages, but one ought to remember that there were many more speakers even right at the cusp of the post-war era.



Ultimately, the CAQ is 'justified' to have its petty moral panics over English uni students, while cultural minorities in France must simply take their lumps and accept that their languages and nations are dead.

[New Brisavoine]

^^You seem to forget one LITTLE detail... 1789.

[Acajack]

Criticism of France's treatment of regional languages may be valid but everyone can see through this and knows Anglo-Canadians don't give a shit about regional languages in France or even Indigenous languages in Canada.

It's all whataboutism to delegitimize Quebec's efforts to protect French.

Originally Posted by jje1000

It's a fascinating commentary from L'Hexagone that prehaps speaks to a certain cultural blindspot.

What happened throughout the conquest and consolidation of Continental France is the ultimately the endstate of the formation of the nation-state- perhaps comparable to the ongoing Han settlement of China's western territories and the Turkish migration into Northern Cyprus. Breton, Basque, Occitant, Norman, etc. are spoken of as dead languages, but one ought to remember that there were many more speakers even right at the cusp of the post-war era.



Ultimately, the CAQ is 'justified' to have its petty moral panics over English uni students, while cultural minorities in France must simply take their lumps and accept that their languages and nations are dead.

[kwoldtimer]

Indeed. Not sure why anyone in Canada would be concerned with France's repression of its linguistic minorities. There's no connection to Canada's situation.

[Acajack]

Canada having an imperfect record on human rights doesn't prevent us from being preachy-preachy with other countries either.

[jje1000]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Criticism of France's treatment of regional languages may be valid but everyone can see through this and knows Anglo-Canadians don't give a shit about regional languages in France or even Indigenous languages in Canada.

It's all whataboutism to delegitimize Quebec's efforts to protect French.

It's not whatabboutism when strawmen are inconsistently applied, while the British Empire is regularly brought up as the big evil and Canada's 'original sin'.

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Actually an awful lot of French people would like to get rid of Corsica. You have no idea the level of exasperation with Corsican nationalists. Just read the comments below any article regarding Corsica.

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Oh, I think you would. Of course in the beginning of the referendum campaign Anglo-Canada would be saying they are sick and tired of those Québécois spoiled children, and how this time they can expect no favor from Ottawa, and if they want independence, fine, let them have it, but it will be harsh and they should assume all the cost, and bla bla bla... but in the last weeks of the campaign as the polls would forecast a 50-50 result, or even a slim advance for the OUI, panic would suddenly set in in Ottawa, and they would frantically organize a new "love-in". Wanna bet?

And of course brushing everyone together like you are doing.

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Typical Anglo-Saxon comment.

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

It's in the Anglo-Saxon DNA.

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Well, "speak white!" is what French Canadians were told for generations by their Anglo (masters? fellow countrymen?), weren't they? It's ingrained in the minds of many English speakers I think.

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

After one reads a number of posts by New Brisavoine and Acajack, one certainly gets the sense of a vague disapproval of English cultural influence (and especially of anglo-Canadian culture which apparently doesn't exist, being nothing more than a pale imitation of the dominant American culture).

And not just a vague disapproval, it's an outright tiresome dismissal and otherization of Canada (which is so conveniently lumped together as 'the Anglos', 'English-speakers', or the 'ROC').

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

^^You seem to forget one LITTLE detail... 1789.

Yeah? And it was an ongoing process that did not cease once the last nobles had their little heads guillotined or Napoleon exiled to St. Helena, and instead churned through the various French Empires and Republics.

Georges Pompidou, 1972: "Il n'y a pas de place pour les langues et cultures régionales dans une France qui doit marquer l'Europe de son sceau."

[Acajack]

On Quebec-related issues in particular, the ROC tends to be fairly single-minded and near-unanimous in its positioning. As such it makes perfect to speak of it as a single entity (an Other if you wish) when the Quebec question is the topic.

[thewave46]

I'm curious if Americans are chuckling at the fact that a foreigner is coming into a Canadian thread and telling locals about their own country. Shoe on the other foot and all.

France is France and the English are the English, even if they are America-lite. Maybe that's it. This is the last vestiges of pissing on the 'other Empire' as the teeny remaining islands scattered a globe about just don't mean a hill of beans anymore. Twist the knife by riling the descendants an ocean away is always a fun game.

Do I particularly care about France's sins of its past? Not really, because it's not my situation to figure out. France has its own legacy of its Empire to deal with. As long as it respects Canada's path of figuring ours out (It has ever since de Gaulle left the Presidency), I've minimal interest in how they deal with their past.

As for Quebec, the tension between Quebec and Anglo-Canada is one of the defining aspects of the country. I might go as far as to say it's a necessary one for both sides - a team of 'Yes Men' never produced greatness.

I've always viewed the quest for purity as a uniquely human obsessive trait that never quite scratches the itch.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Indeed. Not sure why anyone in Canada would be concerned with France's repression of its linguistic minorities. There's no connection to Canada's situation.

Just like New (Nouveau) Brisavoine has no connection to Quebec's situation and should just tale a hike rather than continue to embroil himself in a question that has no relevance to him whatsoever. He is a shit disturber. Canada is my country, not his. I greatly resent the glee he expresses as he continues to foment discontent in this forum.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Canada having an imperfect record on human rights doesn't prevent us from being preachy-preachy with other countries either.

Indeed, and this discomforts me at times. It makes me squirm whenever I see JT lecturing "Emperor Xi" about the status of the Uighur minority in western China. I'm sure Xi gets pretty pissed off at JTs impudence.

[New Brisavoine]

What's fascinating is the Anglophones in this thread just cannot even begin to comprehend that there are perhaps cultural ties that unite the French and the Québécois, and make each one interested in the other, that have absolutely nothing to do with the British or some silly Anglo-French competition, or "pissing on the other Empire" (seriously? ), or whatnot. The French people's interest in Québec is not by way of England, or in reaction to the English. One has to be frankly very Anglocentric to imagine such a thing.

[MonctonRad]

Your own words reveal your sneering condescension of the "Anglo-Saxon race" as you would put it. You have a real problem with English culture and the English hegemony in world, business, world culture and world science. It's obvious you can't stand it, and are doing your own little part to "poke the bear" as hard as you can, then stand back, watch the results and chortle with mirth. You probably look a bit like Jacques Parizeau looked any time he chortled gleefully after giving a pithy retort (By Jove)..........

[thewave46]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

What's fascinating is the Anglophones in this thread just cannot even begin to comprehend that there are perhaps cultural ties that unite the French and the Québécois, and make each one interested in the other, that have absolutely nothing to do with the British or some silly Anglo-French competition, or "pissing on the other Empire" (seriously? ), or whatnot. The French people's interest in Québec is not by way of England, or in reaction to the English. One has to be frankly very Anglocentric to imagine such a thing.

I view it more in the same sense of the fascination portions of Anglo-Canada has with the Americans. To a point I get it, but some just can't not gawk and comment. To the extent I wonder about which country they're citizens of.

No wonder the Americans look down on Canadians who can't shut up about telling them about the internal workings of the United States. If I was a US citizen, I'd wonder about those people too. Tell them to go worry about Canada, probably with a snarky finishing comment about poutine.

"Oh, but we're concerned about the United States". It's not a complex at all, it's genuine concern. Um, sure. Okay. Whatever you say.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Your own words reveal your sneering condescension of the "Anglo-Saxon race" as you would put it.

No, you're confusing me and Churchill. He was the one who used the word "race" (although he spoke of an "English race", not of an "Anglo-Saxon race").

This was the message he cabled to the British commander of Singapore on February 10, 1942:

There must at this stage be no thought of saving the troops or sparing the population. The battle must be fought to the bitter end at all costs. [...] The honour of the British Empire and of the British Army is at stake. I rely on you to show no mercy to weakness in any form. [...] the whole reputation of our country and our race is involved.

When the French say "les Anglo-Saxons", they don't conceive of it as a "race", but as a cultural grouping, what you would call the "Anglophones" I suppose (although I've noticed that "Anglo-Saxons" is now a French-created term more and more used even by English speakers, not to mention its wide use by speakers of other languages, such as "los Anglosajones", etc.).

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Indeed, and this discomforts me at times. It makes me squirm whenever I see JT lecturing "Emperor Xi" about the status of the Uighur minority in western China. I'm sure Xi gets pretty pissed off at JTs impudence.

Take comfort in the fact that our record is better than that of most others.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by thewave46

I view it more in the same sense of the fascination portions of Anglo-Canada has with the Americans. To a point I get it, but some just can't not gawk and comment. To the extent I wonder about which country they're citizens of.

No wonder the Americans look down on Canadians who can't shut up about telling them about the internal workings of the United States. If I was a US citizen, I'd wonder about those people too. Tell them to go worry about Canada, probably with a snarky finishing comment about poutine.

"Oh, but we're concerned about the United States". It's not a complex at all, it's genuine concern. Um, sure. Okay. Whatever you say.

I can assure you in Europe it's perfectly standard and normal to comment on each other's countries. People don't take offense at it (at least not since 1945), and accept that "foreigners" (which is a word eschewed in Europe now) can be quite knowledgeable about their own country too. It's just bizarre that Canadians don't accept comments or inputs from "foreigners". One of these many Canadian quirks that I've discovered on online forums and which we in Europe do not suspect (Canadians are usually seen as super relaxed, anti-nationalist, progressist, almost workist types in Europe, not defensive, prickly, chauvinist types).