Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[MolsonExport]

Divorced parents are usually still in contact, but judging from the experiences of some of my friends and colleagues, it is rarely amicable.

Aside from the real pride in having your "own country", Quebec gains little, and loses a lot. Canada loses even more, IMO.

Much of what characterizes life in Canada is pastiched from the US

very true for Quebec as well as the ROC

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

It's a divorce. Bad things happen in a divorce. I for one would refuse to ever step foot in Quebec territory ever again. The drive on US Route 2 through northern New England is actually quite pleasant. Not as fast or convenient as the A-20, but pleasant..............

This would be silly, and probably not something that most people would follow through on. At least not in the medium term.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

Divorced parents are usually still in contact, but judging from the experiences of some of my friends and colleagues, it is rarely amicable.

Aside from the real pride in having your "own country", Quebec gains little, and loses a lot. Canada loses even more, IMO.



very true for Quebec as well as the ROC

Yeah, I was including Quebec as part of Canada when talking about the US pastiche, as it affects all of us to a significant degree.

But Indigenous communities, Quebec and Newfoundland are still on a lesser level of US pastiche-ness than the rest of the country.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

However, by default if you are trying to create a state that only allows those like yourself to exist there, you are in opposition to all others occupying your space. If you think about it, 'sticking it to the anglos' is necessary to achieve your goal and I think it's a little disingenuous to suggest that would not be a consideration of those involved.

Depends on what you mean by "sticking it to the anglos". For a decent chunk of Anglo-Quebecers, Quebec "sticking it" to them means not being able to have every single interaction with institutions, businesses or even passersby in English.

How this is seen by some as a reasonable expectation in a society where a strong majority of people speak and function in a language other than English is beyond me.

As for a state or a country only allowing a specific in-group to exist, well without being that extreme to some degree most countries are like that. Most countries are the home of in-group X and primarily aim to be a comfortable home for in-group X, those who want to become part of in-group X, those who want to live like in-group X, and those who are happy to be the guests of in-group X on in-group X's turf.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Acajack

This would be silly, and probably not something that most people would follow through on. At least not in the medium term.

No, Not silly. I am deadly serious on this. My Canada is strong, united and extends from sea, to sea, to sea. If the separatists piss on my country, dancing in the streets at the same time, then I would consider them enemies.

I do not consort with enemies.

[thewave46]

Originally Posted by thebasketballgeek

In my opinion for Canada to be as functional, cohesive, and stable as possible Québec must remain in the country.

Indeed.

A counterweight to the ROC's worst impulses have been a notable feature of Quebec's presence in Canada.

Being contrarian is not necessarily a bad thing. It isn't pleasant to hear all the time, but it is necessary.

Sometimes, intra-country squabbling is just a product of the politics of the place despite the crowd here screaming that 'It's the end of the country!' One might think that red/blue state debates are signaling the end of the United States. It's still very much America, regardless of state.

I just don't see the ROC lasting very long after any separation, because the knives just go after the next target once the last one is excised. There's no way a United States watches a country disintegrate on its longest undefended border without some sort of involvement.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

No, Not silly. I am deadly serious on this. My Canada is strong, united and extends from sea, to sea, to sea. If the separatists piss on my country, dancing in the streets at the same time, then I would consider them enemies.

I do not consort with enemies.

At least put “enemies” in quotation marks, no? :p

[lio45]

Also, you’re already on record saying you make sure to fill up in Edmundston/Cornwall anyway, so if you would rather contribute to wearing down the pavement of U.S. Route 2 instead of our A-20, that’s 100% a win for Quebec, no downside at all (and we would thank you for the favor)

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by lio45

Also, you’re already on record saying you make sure to fill up in Edmundston/Cornwall anyway, so if you would rather contribute to wearing down the pavement of U.S. Route 2 instead of our A-20, that’s 100% a win for Quebec, no downside at all (and we would thank you for the favor)

Gas is cheaper in the States anyway.

I love Quebec, and Quebec City in particular. I've been around the entirety of the Gaspe coast, am familiar with the Chateauguay region, Lachute, the Outaouais, and the Estrie where my sister and brother-in-law lived and have a passing knowledge of la Mauricie. I have been to Montreal a number of times and went to Expo 67. It's not as if I have a chip on my shoulder about the province.

But, push come to shove, if you choose to divorce yourselves from my country with all the inherent disruption that would entail, especially to the Maritimes, then, well, you are my enemy. My enemy for life............

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by lio45

Also, you’re already on record saying you make sure to fill up in Edmundston/Cornwall anyway, so if you would rather contribute to wearing down the pavement of U.S. Route 2 instead of our A-20, that’s 100% a win for Quebec, no downside at all (and we would thank you for the favor)

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Gas is cheaper in the States anyway.

I love Quebec, and Quebec City in particular. I've been around the entirety of the Gaspe coast, am familiar with the Chateauguay region, Lachute, the Outaouais, and the Estrie where my sister and brother-in-law lived and have a passing knowledge of la Mauricie. I have been to Montreal a number of times and went to Expo 67. It's not as if I have a chip on my shoulder about the province.

But, push come to shove, if you choose to divorce yourselves from my country with all the inherent disruption that would entail, especially to the Maritimes, then, well, you are my enemy. My enemy for life............

I-92 through New England, anyone??

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

I-92 through New England, anyone??

Dengler never misses an opportunity to think of a new highway!

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by thewave46

Indeed.

A counterweight to the ROC's worst impulses have been a notable feature of Quebec's presence in Canada.

Being contrarian is not necessarily a bad thing. It isn't pleasant to hear all the time, but it is necessary.
.

In fairness, the ROC has probably served as a counterweight to Quebec's worst impulses on a few occasions as well!

[Dengler Avenue]

Dengler never misses an opportunity to think of a new highway!

I mean, New Englanders have mused about it for decades, so something like that would really make the case for it.

Originally Posted by Acajack

In fairness, the ROC has probably served as a counterweight to Quebec's worst impulses on a few occasions as well!

I definitely notice that on the issue of political correctness. (Wait, I mean to quote @wave46.)

Peut-être on est mieux ensemble.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by thewave46

I just don't see the ROC lasting very long after any separation, because the knives just go after the next target once the last one is excised. There's no way a United States watches a country disintegrate on its longest undefended border without some sort of involvement.

It doesn't say much for the ROC's sense of self and identity if so many people think the secession of Quebec, which actually only plays a very peripheral role in the lives of the vast majority of ROCers, would inevitably lead the nation to unravel. Not saying there wouldn't be major challenges (ie the isolation of Atlantic Canada) but we've got modern communications and transportation to address a lot of that, don't we?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Gas is cheaper in the States anyway.

I love Quebec, and Quebec City in particular. I've been around the entirety of the Gaspe coast, am familiar with the Chateauguay region, Lachute, the Outaouais, and the Estrie where my sister and brother-in-law lived and have a passing knowledge of la Mauricie. I have been to Montreal a number of times and went to Expo 67. It's not as if I have a chip on my shoulder about the province.

But, push come to shove, if you choose to divorce yourselves from my country with all the inherent disruption that would entail, especially to the Maritimes, then, well, you are my enemy. My enemy for life............

Such bitterness does generally subside over time and generations.

I may have talked before about this Armenian (from Armenia) guy I used to know.

He and I worked in a diverse place and everyone would have lunch together, with colleagues from a number of countries. One of them was Turkish and the Armenian guy and the Turk would exchange just like everyone else did.

The Armenian guy and I would sometimes be on our own and discuss more serious stuff, and one time he told me: "if my grandfather knew I was having friendly lunches with a Turk, he'd kill me." I chuckled a bit and said: "yeah, those old grievances die hard, I know". And he responded with a serious look and so: "No, I'm not really joking. He'd kill me with his bare hands if he knew. He would. People would do this back home."

[thewave46]

Originally Posted by Acajack

It doesn't say much for the ROC's sense of self and identity if so many people think the secession of Quebec, which actually only plays a very peripheral role in the lives of the vast majority of ROCers, would inevitably lead the nation to unravel. Not saying there wouldn't be major challenges (ie the isolation of Atlantic Canada) but we've got modern communications and transportation to address a lot of that, don't we?

I see where the puck is headed and make my call on that. America-lite becomes less 'lite' by the day and it has been going that way for decades now.

The trajectory is not something terribly difficult to observe, nor do I think the excision of one province suddenly makes everyone else sing kumbaya. More like just making another internal jurisdiction the scapegoat, because that's typically what happens in countries with regions that have big disparities in wealth that can't be moved.

Anyway, it's not really a stretch to say that the ROC sees itself as 'the best version of a Blue state' at this juncture. Some older folks will grouse, but fading nations trade ever harder on 'legacy' and not the concept of tomorrow. I get no sense of tomorrow vision from our managerial leadership types.

Mostly I suspect it comes down to the Americans and how they would play the situation as it evolved. External security concerns of a fragmenting country versus the hassle of a changing their internal dynamic by way of absorbing another.

[thurmas]

New Leger poll out. PQ 31 CAQ 25 QS 17 Liberals 14 Conservatives 11

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by thewave46

say that the ROC sees itself as 'the best version of a Blue state' at this juncture. Some older folks will grouse, but fading nations trade ever harder on 'legacy' and not the concept of tomorrow. I get no sense of tomorrow vision from our managerial leadership types.

Even when I was growing up in the ROC several decades ago the idea that we'd built a better America (kindler, gentler and all that jazz) was a fairly big part of our Canadian identity.

Then when I moved to Quebec (actually, I sensed it before I moved here) there definitely was a different approach from the Canadian one to collective destiny and what our role was in the grand scheme of things and the universe, humanity, etc.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Acajack

It doesn't say much for the ROC's sense of self and identity if so many people think the secession of Quebec, which actually only plays a very peripheral role in the lives of the vast majority of ROCers, would inevitably lead the nation to unravel. Not saying there wouldn't be major challenges (ie the isolation of Atlantic Canada) but we've got modern communications and transportation to address a lot of that, don't we?

To that I have to say that in present-day Canada the "ROC" (including Quebec) already treats the Atlantic Provinces like they are an unimportant pain in the ass. I don't expect that a physical separation, which would complicate cross-country shipping among other things, would do anything to improve the Atlantic Provinces' situation. Whether there would be enough effort by the feds to support or not, is not clear, IMHO.

More practically, with potential strategic advantages of controlling almost the entire east coast of North America, it might be considered worthwhile by the US to absorb the 2.5 million inhabitants of the Atlantic Provinces as another US state, and depending upon the post-separation situation, this idea could be amenable to east coasters who will now feel completely abandoned by "Canada" (including Quebec).

We'll see if it ever happens, but I still think that Quebec has too much to lose from such an endeavor. Especially when it appears that they are getting much of what they want while remaining as part of Canada.

It would piss me off, but I can't say that I would take it as a personal affront. To me it would just be misguided people fucking up everything for everybody for some principle that they find important. Like the old saying of cutting off the nose to spite the face...

Love these discussions, by the way... Where else but here would we actually be able to get a good sense of this situation, written by Canadians about the Canadian situation. It's good stuff...

[MonctonRad]

The first Continental Congress pre-approved Canada for entry into the union. There was no mention of this however in the second Continental Congress.

The Maritimes (and NL) might be able to make a good argument. Of course, if Trump succeeds on turning the US into a Republican fascist dictatorship, I imagine there would not be much desire on our part for entry into the republic.