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  #4461  
Old Posted Nov 20, 2023, 8:06 PM
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If these improvements succeed within their scope of potential, converting lanes to bus-only and building more hard infrastructure generally in a decade from now will be a much easier sell than it would be now. You just know that half the city would consider losing a lane of SPV traffic on 8th Street to be the crime of the century. Maybe it would be different if the local populous was more transit-friendly to begin with, but that's not the case. That said, transit-friendliness will almost certainly improve as a matter of demographic changes, as more people move here from large global cities where functional transit systems are expected as a part of ordinary urban life, even accounting for Saskatoon's modest size. The political element of transit improvements will be an easier sell if, on top of changing demographics, there's a decently functioning but strained transit system advocates can point to as needing improvement, rather than one that's both poorly functioning and poorly used. As much as I'd like to snap my fingers and have Saskatoon transform into a TOD-paradise with dedicated busways, light rail, pedestrian-only streets, and density exceeding five-over-ones, it is not going to happen overnight, and somewhat incremental change is the only way that we are going to get there.
I think bus lanes would be a hard sell on any street in Saskatoon (typical S'toon resident: "Nobody - or at least nobody I know or care about - rides the damn bus!!!"). But based on my anecdotal evidence the three-lane arterials in Saskatoon rarely, if ever, see traffic volumes that meet or exceed their capacity. The one exception may be Circle Drive North between Idylwyld and Warman Road which does experience a rush hour (more like a rush 30-minutes). IMO, the best way to show drivers that bus lanes are not a harbinger for bumper-to-bumper traffic is to build one on a popular, busy street and demonstrate that traffic speeds are hardly impacted.

The second best way to win people over to support bus priority measures is to give them a taste of the positive impacts. The reason the Skytrain in Vancouver enjoys such great support across Metro Vancouver is because tens of thousands of drivers experience its benefits when they go to a Canucks or Whitecaps or Lions game, or attend a major concert, or eat at a restaurant downtown. If Saskatoon built true BRT for the first line and gave residents in University Heights and Blairmore an option to travel to a Rush game at Saskatoon's future downtown arena in 25 minutes or less, while also allowing them to drink and dine downtown without worrying about driving home intoxicated or paying for an exorbitant Uber or taxi, you might see a lot of people who wouldn't otherwise support transit projects lining up to back future BRT lines.

I see two problems for Saskatoon's BRT-lite proposal. First, the project will still be far from cheap. The first 15-kilometre line was projected to cost $44M in 2019 and it will almost certainly cost more than that (inflation Et al.). If this expensive (although not as expensive as true BRT) transit project fails to deliver benefits such as faster travel times and more reliable bus service, you won't see opponents of the system accepting that subpar outcomes are the result of subpar improvements. Instead, you'll see them ignore that the BRT project is far from true BRT, and instead insist that spending on transit is a waste of money.

Second, the BRT system is not supposed to merely improve the transit experience for existing riders. If that was the case, any amount of dedicated lanes or signal priority measures would be great! Unfortunately, Saskatoon is banking on the BRT system to support a downtown arena, an improved convention centre, increased population density on major corridors, and whole cloth transformations of stroads with strip mall frontages into lively and walkable mixed-used destinations. I don't think the BRT-lite proposal will satisfactorily support any of those things. Cities see private developers line up to build on corridors with flashy rapid transit projects like heavy rail, light rail, or true BRT, not express bus services with some winterized bus shelters. With this half-assed "rapid" transit project, don't be surprised if Saskatoon's developers continue to allocate their precious dollars to master planned communities on the fringe of the city and not medium-density infills in the urban core.
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  #4462  
Old Posted Nov 22, 2023, 4:26 PM
Antigonish Antigonish is offline
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I agree with you 100% FarmerHaight, you summed it up pretty succinctly. Dumbing the whole network down to BRT-lite not only doesn't solve the problem but reinforces anti-transit dogma in the city. We all know things take time, so why didn't they accept that knowing all the funding wouldn't be available in one go meant screwing up the whole project? Why not do it in phases?

I live less than a block off 8th Street about right in the middle between Clarence and Cumberland. If I take the bus back from downtown/Broadway I can still exit via a stop right near my street but with the BRT-lite plan I wouldn't have a choice but to walk ~5 minutes in either direction to take the new bus with little to any actual improvement between trip time or frequency. It completely misses the point and fails miserably.

Also, corridors such as 8th can absolutely be retooled for dedicated lanes from Lorne all the way to Market Mall. On the Broadway to Cumberland stretch there is an entire lane dedicated to street parking for houses converted into small offices like Remax and acupuncture clinics. Get rid of the street parking and remove the median and you've suddenly found the appropriate lane widths to accommodate BRT lanes without sacrificing additional car lanes. Stations should be in the middle of the thoroughfare with better crosswalk access.
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  #4463  
Old Posted Nov 22, 2023, 4:33 PM
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I should also mention that the bus routes should be configured into "temporary" routes in the short-term to increase headway during school hours, not just rush hour. Walter Murray and Holy Cross have about ~2,500 students between them on that block of Taylor near Preston with the majority of students who go there live in Wildwood, Lakeridge, Lakewood, etc which is too far to walk or reasonably bike to school but the complaints I've heard is that it can take an hour for students to catch a bus home because of overcrowding and lack of frequency. Same thing in Stonebridge. So what's the holdup?
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  #4464  
Old Posted Nov 22, 2023, 5:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Antigonish View Post
I live less than a block off 8th Street about right in the middle between Clarence and Cumberland. If I take the bus back from downtown/Broadway I can still exit via a stop right near my street but with the BRT-lite plan I wouldn't have a choice but to walk ~5 minutes in either direction to take the new bus with little to any actual improvement between trip time or frequency. It completely misses the point and fails miserably.
I will point out that this is how BRT is supposed to work: with fewer stops and wider stop spacing, the bus should be much faster which should make up for the walking time. However, this is why it is important to run both express and local service, so that mobility-challenged people and people taking short, local trips can still use the transit service that best serves them. I think express services usually have stop spacings of around 1 km, while local services stop every block or two (200m - 400m).

I'm not against any of the transit improvements, or even the price tag. I just hate that this is being branded as BRT. Add the downtown dedicated lanes and call them system-wide improvements (since a large number of the existing routes travel through downtown). Buy additional vehicles and launch an express service (someone riding from Centre Mall to Midtown really does not need 23 stops in-between). Add some better bus shelters and call them passenger improvements (with Saskatoon's weather, most bus stops should have walls, a roof, and an on-demand heater anyway).

But if you add all these half measures and call them BRT, what are residents going to say when you come back for the additional $350M needed to implement full-BRT on line one? Or when you try to launch lines two and three?
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  #4465  
Old Posted Nov 22, 2023, 8:27 PM
Brutopian Brutopian is offline
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According to SREDA's Q3 2023 Economic Dashboard, the 2023 POPULATION ESTIMATE for the SASKATOON CMA is 364,167.
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  #4466  
Old Posted Nov 23, 2023, 12:26 PM
Saskabusher Saskabusher is offline
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Wow! I remember it being 145,000 when I was in high school, according to the phone book at the time!

People love having babies in Saskatoon and it's a great place to raise kids. Also we've got pretty good immigration numbers. It shouldn't take many more years to hit 400,000!

(I miss the trolley buses- they were so fun to go bumper shining on...).

On the topic of bus routes/branding, I'd like to open a private 3/4 sized, 4-bus fleet, with a dedicated route going from the University to the downtown apartment core to the downtown business core to Broadway to the University, as a circuit. Two buses going in each direction. Extended hours, from 8pm to 1am, one bus in each direction on weekends. Work, study, play and live safely and conveniently all nearby, of course only for those nearby, but that's a choice that could become an option with better infrastructure and planning.

Last edited by Saskabusher; Nov 23, 2023 at 12:43 PM.
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  #4467  
Old Posted Nov 24, 2023, 2:49 PM
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Well this should be interesting. Like anything development related, I imagine it will take a while to start seeing actually buildings going up, but this definitely seems like it will allow for a lot more options for development, particularly around the rapid transit corridors.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/saskatoon/city-council-zoning-changes-increase-density-1.7038367

Three of the recommendations direct administration to write zoning bylaw amendments to:

- Allow up to four residential units on a property in a residential zoning district, as long as development standards are met, and sewer and water infrastructure can accommodate them.
- Permit four-storey multiple unit developments within 800 metres of bus rapid transit system corridors.
- Remove parking requirements from designated areas and have the motion be considered by the planning, development and community services committee next month.
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  #4468  
Old Posted Nov 25, 2023, 4:58 PM
Saskabusher Saskabusher is offline
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The worst thing I read is Donaver saying, "We've been working on changes for years...". And that's why he voted against finally making a decision? What a fat cat! I'm not saying with proof, but tell me he doesn't like the endless luncheons at the Parktown and Bess as they 'discuss' changes to bylaws for years(!) on the public dime. Disgusting, man. Then Block chimes in and votes no, too, in one of the most critical areas for workable density in the city. They should both move out to Duck Lake.
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  #4469  
Old Posted Nov 26, 2023, 6:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Saskabusher View Post
The worst thing I read is Donaver saying, "We've been working on changes for years...". And that's why he voted against finally making a decision? What a fat cat! I'm not saying with proof, but tell me he doesn't like the endless luncheons at the Parktown and Bess as they 'discuss' changes to bylaws for years(!) on the public dime. Disgusting, man. Then Block chimes in and votes no, too, in one of the most critical areas for workable density in the city. They should both move out to Duck Lake.
It’s encouraging to hear the proposal was approved. Prior to my relocation to Calgary, I had a discussion with Councillor Block of the downtown/nutana area. She expressed significant concern for the affluent residents of Nutana, aligning more with their interests, as well as for the retired (nimby) community who seem resistant to progress and economic development. This recent vote highlights a concerning trend towards superficiality, overshadowing broader economic and political issues of the district that other downtowns aren’t experiencing as they grow faster than ours. The stark contrast between her very small portion of Nutana area and the rest of her oddly population-low downtown district raises questions about the logic of government merging these distinct regions into a single voting bloc. This amalgamation seems counterintuitive, especially when considering actions from her bias against urban density. It is working against the natural land area that should have people, when it is being represented by a former news anchor councillor who, ironically, advocates against density while living in a less dense area.
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  #4470  
Old Posted Nov 26, 2023, 8:01 PM
Justanothermember Justanothermember is offline
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Originally Posted by asdfgh View Post
Well this should be interesting. Like anything development related, I imagine it will take a while to start seeing actually buildings going up, but this definitely seems like it will allow for a lot more options for development, particularly around the rapid transit corridors.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/saskatoon/city-council-zoning-changes-increase-density-1.7038367

Three of the recommendations direct administration to write zoning bylaw amendments to:

- Allow up to four residential units on a property in a residential zoning district, as long as development standards are met, and sewer and water infrastructure can accommodate them.
- Permit four-storey multiple unit developments within 800 metres of bus rapid transit system corridors.
- Remove parking requirements from designated areas and have the motion be considered by the planning, development and community services committee next month.
These zoning by-laws amendments are getting approved in cities all across Canada as a requirement from the Crown in order to qualify for the HAF.
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  #4471  
Old Posted Nov 26, 2023, 11:43 PM
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These changes are a good thing for Saskatoon, although I am concerned that "Allow up to four residential units on a property in a residential zoning district, as long as development standards are met" means parking minimums, height restrictions, FAR, and other restrictive zoning measures will hamstring the impact of these changes.

Saskatoon's growth plan includes a significant amount of infill development. If these changes mean those infill projects are low-rise apartments and townhouses instead of one-for-one single family home replacements, Saskatoon will be a more sustainable and vibrant city.
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  #4472  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2023, 4:20 PM
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It’s encouraging to hear the proposal was approved. Prior to my relocation to Calgary, I had a discussion with Councillor Block of the downtown/nutana area. She expressed significant concern for the affluent residents of Nutana, aligning more with their interests, as well as for the retired (nimby) community who seem resistant to progress and economic development. This recent vote highlights a concerning trend towards superficiality, overshadowing broader economic and political issues of the district that other downtowns aren’t experiencing as they grow faster than ours. The stark contrast between her very small portion of Nutana area and the rest of her oddly population-low downtown district raises questions about the logic of government merging these distinct regions into a single voting bloc. This amalgamation seems counterintuitive, especially when considering actions from her bias against urban density. It is working against the natural land area that should have people, when it is being represented by a former news anchor councillor who, ironically, advocates against density while living in a less dense area.
This honestly isn't fair to Block. She's voted in favour and spoken in favour of multiple high density rezonings in Nutana and elsewhere in her ward. Yes, she cast a vote against this proposal last week, but you paint with too broad of a brush.
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  #4473  
Old Posted Nov 29, 2023, 2:47 AM
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Trimming the Budget

This council must be off its rocker if it thinks yet another 4% hike in the mill rate is going to get the pitchforks coming at them retracted.
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  #4474  
Old Posted Nov 29, 2023, 2:53 PM
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Are there pitchforks? I seem to recall this type of discourse being raised on certain websites during this council's first term, and every incumbent running for council was re-elected.
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  #4475  
Old Posted Nov 29, 2023, 6:25 PM
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^^^^Agreed. There was lots of talk & speculation about a housecleaning, but there was really no change in the makeup of council. The difference I see this time is that the talk of big changes in council has started much earlier and there are rumours about Charlie not running for Mayor again. Not counting any chicken, though,
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  #4476  
Old Posted Nov 30, 2023, 4:26 PM
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I am going to come to the defence of Councilor Block as well. I live in Varsity View and have attended a fair number of the community input meetings on infill and density in our neighborhood. There is a very passionate and vocal president of the Community Association that always comes across as anti density (impact character of neighborhood...blah, blah, blah). Ms Block has had to deal with a strong and vocal NIMBY presence, while trying to balance increasing density. The times I have heard her speak at these meetings, I always get the impression she supports seeing the city core by more densified and reduce urban sprawl.
Just my opinion from attending these meetings....
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  #4477  
Old Posted Nov 30, 2023, 4:36 PM
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If pitchforks should be aimed anywhere regarding the municipal budget (not that pitchforks are a helpful means of problem solving), it should be at the province for keeping the city in a straightjacket by not allowing it to run deficits like a normal government.
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  #4478  
Old Posted Dec 12, 2023, 8:46 PM
The S'toon Goon The S'toon Goon is offline
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I talked to someone who recently put in a bid for their scope of work on the Meridian project on Spadina so it would seem they are pressing on with the project. He says It's 19 floors which I think was consistent with the original rendering. I can't recall if the contention on this project was due to its height or its design or just the fact it's in between two nice looking churches. In any case I look forward to hopefully seeing some shovels hit the dirt sooner than later!
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  #4479  
Old Posted Dec 13, 2023, 7:39 PM
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The controversy surrounding that project with respect to its proximity to the churches rings as totally out of touch with reality. If heritage advocates appreciate these churches for what they contribute to the city in terms of architecture, sense of place and history, use as performing arts venues, and in their conventional religious function, then they should be clicking their heels at the fact that a developer is prepared to come in and make major long term financial contributions to a church organization, who I am fairly certain is facing ever-dwindling membership and attendance.

Knox Tower ensures that Knox United Church will continue on as a functioning, maintained space for decades to come to be enjoyed both by the church community at the city at large, and helps to guard against the risk that it might go the way of Third Avenue United and be purchased by a church organization who has no intention of sharing the space with the broader community. Knox has essentially picked up the mantle of Third Avenue United as the go-to non-TCU downtown classical performing arts space and it would be an utter shame to lose it.

Anyone who is still moaning over the fact that it will interrupt the skyline or whatever needs a reality check.
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  #4480  
Old Posted Dec 19, 2023, 2:32 PM
Saskabusher Saskabusher is offline
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Great news about Knox tower movement! The original proposal had design issues with the extension of balconies, too, but hey, they're in the air!

If the tenders are on the grill, I can't wait for some juicy render updates. That spot fills a skyline hole perfectly from many angles, and at a decent height.

Phone is absolutely right about the importance of working together to find solutions for preservation. It's ridiculous to sit there at an old heritage desk, sobbing over a Saskatoon postcard from 1952. The church itself, in cooperation with the developer, initiated this project for mutual benefits. Time for the Christening!

Last edited by Saskabusher; Dec 19, 2023 at 2:50 PM. Reason: too
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