Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[New Brisavoine]

^^I've already talked about Richmond Park above (which I found pretty disappointing). See my posts above. As for Hampstead Heath, I can find you tens of them in Greater Paris, some much better than Hampstead Heath (for example Parc de Noisiel, which in my opinion is the most beautiful urban English park in Europe).

[P'tit Renard]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

I also wonder why Montréal doesn't grow more than Toronto if it's better managed than Toronto, and not as overcrowded. Toronto is fast approaching the point where more population will have more negative externalities than positive sides (if it hasn't reached that point already).

Montréal serves a different purpose now, it's the business metropole of Québec, whereas Toronto is the metropole for the rest of Anglo-Canada. Toronto is the primary hub for English speakers, and they make up the majority of newcomers entering Canada. I don't think there's any appetite in Montréal to sacrifice the primacy of French, in order to squeak out more economic and population growth.

You are right though that Toronto has already reached the tipping point in which massive growth in international students, temporary foreign workers and immigrants combined has led to much more negative externalities than positives. This has been perpetuated by immigration policies of the federal government that Toronto has no direct control over. It's one of the primary reasons why Trudeau is tanking in the polls, and even young voters are abandoning the Liberals in droves for the Conservatives.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

I also wonder why Montréal doesn't grow more than Toronto if it's better managed than Toronto, and not as overcrowded. Toronto is fast approaching the point where more population will have more negative externalities than positive sides (if it hasn't reached that point already).

If you supposedly know so much about Quebec, you should know the answer to this.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by P'tit Renard

Montréal serves a different purpose now, it's the business metropole of Québec, whereas Toronto is the metropole for the rest of Anglo-Canada. Toronto is the primary hub for English speakers, and they make up the majority of newcomers entering Canada. I don't think there's any appetite in Montréal to sacrifice the primacy of French, in order to squeak out more economic and population growth.

This is less a choice of Montreal than a choice of Quebec (which is more restrictive on immigration). Doesn't help that major industries in Montreal are sort of losing weight globally. The aerospace sector of Montreal was relatively more important 20 years ago than today. And thanks to American sanctions the Europeans now own the crown jewels (CSeries) and for their domestic reasons (Airbus jobs) refuse to let it grow. Similar trend in AI. Montreal was one of the global leaders, competing with Silicon Valley. Neither the federal or provincial governments really gave these universities and emerging companies much support, and now I'm not sure Montreal ranks top 10. Then there's the loss of a lot of the financial sector over the decades. Quebec is finally finding its stride in cleantech and in the resources for cleantech. But it's going to take decades to build that industrial base to the point that Montreal regains the economic prominence it used to have.

[P'tit Renard]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

This is less a choice of Montreal than a choice of Quebec (which is more restrictive on immigration). Doesn't help that major industries in Montreal are sort of losing weight globally. The aerospace sector of Montreal was relatively more important 20 years ago than today. And thanks to American sanctions the Europeans now own the crown jewels (CSeries) and for their domestic reasons (Airbus jobs) refuse to let it grow. Similar trend in AI. Montreal was one of the global leaders, competing with Silicon Valley. Neither the federal or provincial governments really gave these universities and emerging companies much support, and now I'm not sure Montreal ranks top 10. Then there's the loss of a lot of the financial sector over the decades. Quebec is finally finding its stride in cleantech and in the resources for cleantech. But it's going to take decades to build that industrial base to the point that Montreal regains the economic prominence it used to have.

Pretty much all of Canada is suffering from this global irrelevance. Toronto and Vancouver tries to hide the economic malaise by juicing up real estate to the extreme, but it hasn't put a stop to the massive declines in entrepreneurship and business investment across Canada.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by P'tit Renard

It's one of the primary reasons why Trudeau is tanking in the polls, and even young voters are abandoning the Liberals in droves for the Conservatives.

Are the Conservatives in favor of cutting immigration? As far as I know, all federal political parties are in favor of immigration, to varying degrees.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

If you supposedly know so much about Quebec, you should know the answer to this.

Of course: because most immigrants are attracted to the Anglo-Saxon "dream", and can't be bothered about learning French. It's actually one of the main points the Québec pro-independence have: if Québec becomes an independent country, immigrants have no choice but to accept to become Francophone. Just for the same reason an independent Norway attracts tons of immigrants (Norway has one of the highest immigration rates in Europe) and they know they have to learn and accept Norwegian, even if it's a difficult and very minor language on a global scale, whereas if Norway was just a region of the UK, the same immigrants would probably drag their feet and not be all that keen to learn Norwegian.

[P'tit Renard]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Are the Conservatives in favor of cutting immigration? As far as I know, all federal political parties are in favor of immigration, to varying degrees.

Unfortunately immigration is a third rail in Canadian federal politics, and if there's a sound bite of Poilievre saying out loud that he wants immigration to go back to "realistic" levels or to match Canada's absorptive capacity, you'll be certain that the Trudeau Liberals will milk it to the extreme, and play it constantly on attack ads accusing Poilievre of xenophobia and racism.

We do know the Conservatives core supporters are keen to bring temporary foreign worker and immigration levels back to realistic levels, so the hope is that their influence will prevail if Canadians elect a Conservative government.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

This is less a choice of Montreal than a choice of Quebec (which is more restrictive on immigration).

This supposes that francophone Montrealers do not exist. It may be the view of anglophone Montrealers but they are not the largest group in the city. Montrealers have had almost 50 years to create and support a party that would restore the language free market that would lead to English dominating the city again, but so far have not done so.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Acajack

This supposes that francophone Montrealers do not exist.

Not quite. I'm just saying cities don't have authority to make those decisions. Those rest mostly with the provincial and sometimes federal government.

Not everything is a conspiracy or statement against Francophones. Jeez.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by P'tit Renard

Pretty much all of Canada is suffering from this global irrelevance. Toronto and Vancouver tries to hide the economic malaise by juicing up real estate to the extreme, but it hasn't put a stop to the massive declines in entrepreneurship and business investment across Canada.

Agreed that the rest of Canada is going through the same. But at least with the GTA, it has been able to grow its prominence in other domains. Growth may come from the real estate ponzi. But the city is rather firmly established as a global centre for tech and finance. To the point that financing deals for mining in Africa are done in Toronto. Montreal, has unfortunately, lost some of that global prominence.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Not quite. I'm just saying cities don't have authority to make those decisions. Those rest mostly with the provincial and sometimes federal government.

Not everything is a conspiracy or statement against Francophones. Jeez.

Sure but if you look at who has been mayor of Montreal over the past 50 years it's doubtful they would have different linguistic policies from Quebec's had they been able to.

[mousquet]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

All of them. No arrondissement is spared now, not even the rich ones.

I'm not going to quote this entire rant, but I'm sure you know the old saying "laver son linge sale en famille".
Or seemingly "don't air your dirty laundry in public" in their language.
It's not a good idea to talk about this to strangers who can't do anything about it.
It's up to locals to fire the current city administration, if they think they have to in the next local election.

I agree on some of what you say, but can't understand this loathing toward cycling infrastructure.
Cycling does obviously make the city cleaner. It is hard to find any dirtier or more awkward means of transport than cars in a dense city like Paris.
And biking the town is quite pleasant, because it's still pretty anyhow.

Besides, this trend for bike-friendly infrastructure isn't exclusively Parisian. It is pretty much everywhere and much older than it is over here in certain cities.
I didn't know Amsterdam or Copenhagen were hellholes... Actually, cities still ruled by the oppressive car-oriented policy are.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by mousquet

I agree on some of what you say, but can't understand this loathing toward cycling infrastructure.
Cycling does obviously make the city cleaner. It is hard to find any dirtier or more awkward means of transport than cars in a dense city like Paris.
And biking the town is quite pleasant, because it's still pretty anyhow.

Besides, this trend for bike-friendly infrastructure isn't exclusively Parisian. It is pretty much everywhere and much older than it is over here in certain cities.
I didn't know Amsterdam or Copenhagen were hellholes... Actually, cities still ruled by the oppressive car-oriented policy are.

Good ol' projection and arrogance. Apparently he speaks for France and assumes what he wants must be universal.

What's happening in Paris with their adoption of cycling has actually been inspirational for many other cities around the world.

[mousquet]

^ Bah, he's a bit annoying, but does it on purpose. That's his game online, lol.

I think Brisavoine likes French love songs, though. That's still something.
Here's a nice one for him.

• Video Link

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Agreed that the rest of Canada is going through the same. But at least with the GTA, it has been able to grow its prominence in other domains. Growth may come from the real estate ponzi. But the city is rather firmly established as a global centre for tech and finance. To the point that financing deals for mining in Africa are done in Toronto. Montreal, has unfortunately, lost some of that global prominence.

Toronto has never hosted the Olympic Games though.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by mousquet

I agree on some of what you say, but can't understand this loathing toward cycling infrastructure.
Cycling does obviously make the city cleaner. It is hard to find any dirtier or more awkward means of transport than cars in a dense city like Paris.
And biking the town is quite pleasant, because it's still pretty anyhow.

Besides, this trend for bike-friendly infrastructure isn't exclusively Parisian. It is pretty much everywhere and much older than it is over here in certain cities.
I didn't know Amsterdam or Copenhagen were hellholes... Actually, cities still ruled by the oppressive car-oriented policy are.

Where to begin...

First of all, contrary to clichés, Amsterdam and Copenhagen are VERY car oriented. Yes they have developed cycling infrastructure, but they do not conceive of it as being in opposition to cars, or to the detriment of cars, as is the case with the ideologues running Paris.

You'll hardly find a more pro-automobile city than Amsterdam, and a more pro-automobile country than The Netherlands.

This is the A10 in Amsterdam for instance, only 3 km from the center of Amsterdam, and 3.3 km from the royal palace. That would be like having a 6-lane motorway going from Montparnasse to Place d'Italie.



And that's the very dense network of motorways in Holland. The Paris Region, which has 50% more inhabitants than the number of people living within that map, can only dream of having such a dense network!



As for bicycle lanes in Paris, they are notoriously poorly conceived, and poorly built, as with most things that this city hall does. They are dangerous, not well maintained. Many people complain about how the bicycle lanes are dangerous with fallen leaves not removed by the city hall, to the point many bicyclists prefer to use the bus lane!! Buses have become impossibly slow in Paris, stuck as they are in traffic due to the many bicycle lanes and roadblocks artificially created by the Paris city hall.

[mousquet]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

This is the A10 in Amsterdam for instance, only 3 km from the center of Amsterdam, and 3.3 km from the royal palace. That would be like having a 6-lane motorway going from Montparnasse to Place d'Italie.

C'est moche. Horrible.

Arrête de prétendre que tu veux voir des aménagements des années 60 comme ceux-là ici.
Tu sais foutrement bien que ce sont des aires de relégation en banlieue, gangrénées par tous les maux et fléaux possibles.
Échec scolaire, trafic de stup, bigoterie débridée et dégénérée des pauvres gens à la recherche de solutions à leurs problèmes quotidiens... Et tu dis vouloir en remettre une couche ?
Non merci. Mieux vaut éloigner les voitures excessivement encombrantes si nécessaire.
On est en ville, pas à la campagne. Les voitures prennent trop de place ici.
Tout le monde le sait sauf toi, apparemment.

Quant aux pistes cyclables, t'es même pas au courant des pires... Celle du boulevard de Magenta par exemple est l'une des plus mal foutues qu'on puisse imaginer.
Les pires sont celles qui entrent en conflit avec les piétons et font perdre leur temps aux cyclistes.
Mais il y a des contraintes d'aménagement. Notamment l'espace disponible. Parce que justement, il n'a jamais été question de bannir les voitures, mais simplement de rééquilibrer le partage de l'espace public.

Tout le monde ne fantasme pas sur sa voiture comme tu sembles le faire.
Il faudra t'y habituer et tolérer les gens qui préfèrent des modes de transport alternatifs.
Ou alors tu as le droit de déménager.

Et puis c'est vrai, il y a des risques à faire du vélo. Même quand tu sors de chez toi, tu prends un certain risque.
That's life.

[P'tit Renard]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Agreed that the rest of Canada is going through the same. But at least with the GTA, it has been able to grow its prominence in other domains. Growth may come from the real estate ponzi. But the city is rather firmly established as a global centre for tech and finance. To the point that financing deals for mining in Africa are done in Toronto. Montreal, has unfortunately, lost some of that global prominence.

Toronto's status as the global centre for exploration stage and junior mining companies I'd agree with, and realistically the only real challengers are London, Sydney and NYC. NYC's too distracted at the moment chasing bigger fish, though London could be a real challenger as the City tries to fire up this growth engine to make up for the economic disaster of Brexit.

In respect to global tech centre, the top line numbers for Toronto's tech employment look great at first glance, but the underpinnings aren't so wonderful and it's hard to say if it'll be sustainable in the mid to long run. For that title I would say it's still up in the air rather than 'firmly established'.

Canadian startups are still starved for VC funding, and the number of tech unicorns produced by Canada is underwhelming to say the least. If you exclude Montreal and Vancouver the list is even more middling. The only Canadian FAANG equivalent is Shopify, with a market cap that's about the same as Airbnb at the moment. R&D spend, IP formation and commercialization metrics are undoubtedly disappointing given the number of tech employees. FAANGs keep their most innovative and leading-edge R&D projects down in the US where the top talent resides, so Canadian branch offices aren't necessarily benefiting that much either.

The brain drain of the best Canadian tech graduates/talent to Silicon Valley continues unabated. Salary differentials are so great that along with the falling Canadian dollar, it's a tough lift for Canadian tech firms to attract top talent from the US hubs. Efforts to attract Canadian talent back from Silicon Valley have also fallen flat since COVID, as the extremely high cost of housing plus COL, along with high taxes, unreliable healthcare and subpar weather makes it a tough proposition for Canadian expats to stomach. Team Trudeau seems to think creating new VISA streams to mop up H1-B rejects will be the silver bullet, but we could just end up mopping up lower quality talent that won't be bringing Canadian tech to the next level.

The common theme in all this of course is the exuberant cost of real estate, and how it cannibalizes in real time Canada's economy, allocation of capital, and ability to be globally competitive.

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

If you supposedly know so much about Quebec, you should know the answer to this.

He does; he's just fishing. and/or stirring the pot.