Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[Acajack]

You've always embraced celebrity, just not Canadian-only celebrity. American-endorsed celebrity was always fine, and basically the norm. The Tragically Hip and Gord Downie were a notable exception to this.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by P'tit Renard

Curious..are you referring to central Paris, and which arrondissements are these dirty streets in?

All of them. No arrondissement is spared now, not even the rich ones.

It's not just a question of dirtiness (which in itself would be almost marginal compared to the other issues), it's a question of total mismanagement and shambles: potholes everywhere, worn out surfaces because the Greens refuse to put new asphalt on the streets and avenues (supposedly the old cobblestones now revealed due to the wear and tear and disappearance of the asphalt are good to slow down car drivers), chantiers (works) everywhere that are never properly monitored by the Paris city hall, remain for years without any work going on, all sorts of security hazards, such as electrical cabinets in the streets that remain open for weeks, easily accessible by children, and never repaired by the Paris city hall, traffic lights repaired with brown tape (!) and that can fall on car drivers, 19th century street lights destroyed in many areas and never repaired or replaced, 19th century Parisian benches destroyed by the Paris city hall or sold on the black market, 19th century iron grills at the bottom of trees removed by the Paris city hall and replaced with what Parisians have named pig troughs (large squares of mud and garbage surrounded by planks of putrefying wood that remove space for pedestrians on sidewalks, and were supposed to be flowered, but are not maintained and become filled with garbage), café and restaurant terraces illegally taking up 2/3 of the space or more on the sidewalks with the blessing of the Paris city hall, bicycle riders behaving like delinquents, riding their bicycles on sidewalks, never respecting red lights, etc, again with the blessing of the Paris city hall who consider them 'climate change' heroes, improper removal of fallen leaves in the Autumn, which become a hazard, very bad management of water evacuation after the very numerous works done on roads to add ugly bike lanes, which create very large pools of water whenever it rains, which was never the case in Paris before, all sorts of obstacles on the sidewalks (pig troughs, illegal café terraces, dormant "chantiers" with palisades, billboards put right in the middle of the sidewalks by a city hall in search of money), trash cans now standing on the sidewalks all day in many arrondissements (until 10 years ago, trash cans were taken out of Parisian buildings around 6 am, collected by the garbage collectors, and put back in the buildings by 8am, every day, but now many left-wing arrondissements have decided that garbage collectors should not work in the wee hours, and instead they are scheduled to work in the late afternoon, for 'workers' right' reasons, and also because garbage collection in the afternoon and evening is good to block car traffic, the eternal obsession of the Green councilors who rule this city in alliance with the Communists and the Socialists). And I'm probably forgetting a lot of things here (such as 90% of Parisian fountains not functioning, both because of the usual mismanagement of the slackers running this city, and also because the Green councilors are opposed to using water in fountains).

Add to that the fact the city debt went through the roof (now standing at 10 billion euros, with a city essentially bankrupt due to 22 years of mismanagement by the Socialist-Green-Communist alliance), a number of city personnel doubled in 22 years while the city has at the same time become degraded, Paris now having 4 times as many city personnel as Madrid per capita for example, Madrid being spotless and so well managed compared to Paris, etc. A mayor of Paris that has this year increased city taxes by 62% after promising in 2020 not to increase taxes, because the city otherwise would have had to declare bankruptcy this year (a typical owner of a 2 bedroom apartment has had his city tax going from typically 1,700 euros last year to 2,700 euros this year).

You can find all of this and more on Twitter with the hashtag #saccageParis. Countless photos there that I won't post here. For the pig troughs you have to type "auges à cochon" in French. You'll quickly see what Parisians mean.

Originally Posted by P'tit Renard

Also which parks in particular are decrepit?

All those managed by the City of Paris. Note that some parks are managed by the French state (Tuileries, Louvre), or the Senate (Luxembourg), so these are in good condition, but those managed by the City of Paris have become awful. Check Parc Monceau on Twitter for example, which used to be so beautiful, in the richest part of Paris. Only the Ranelagh is still ok, but all other city parks are from degraded to utterly destroyed.

It's come to a point the suburbs are now much better managed than Paris. Stepping from the 16th arrondissement of Paris into Neuilly-sur-Seine, for instance, feels almost like going from Tijuana to San Diego (two cities I know reasonably well). You may think it's an exaggeration, but it has really become like that in terms of street maintenance and general appearance. When I go to places like Saint-Cloud I'm always shocked by their well managed streets, the neatness and cleanliness everywhere. Paris used to be like that until 15 years ago, but now it's become a big "dépotoir" as we say in French (i.e. dumping ground), with damaged streets and all sorts of abandoned objects on the sidewalks remaining for weeks (not to mention the incredible rise in the number of tramps and rough sleepers, with dirty mattresses visible on sidewalks in pretty much all neighborhoods of Paris now).

PS: I think the picture in this tweet sums up everything (not even in Caracas it's that bad): https://twitter.com/mtwit75/status/1722634089641943517

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by P'tit Renard

On the island especially amongst millennials, the show Friends is pretty well known. There were hommages on TVA/LCN and RDI paying tribute to Matthew Perry's passing.

Same in Paris.

Personally I've never been that much of a fan of Friends. I didn't find their humor funny. When I lived in the US I much preferred Third Rock from the Sun. That was much more funny.

[lio45]

One of my close friends, and his wife, recently went on a Western Europe trip, spent a week in Paris and then a week in London, no preconceptions nor recent experience with either city; and they loved Paris (super clean, well-maintained, inviting) and found that London sucked (dirty, bland).

(I was a bit surprised.)

[New Brisavoine]

London is indeed a bit bland, but it is infinitely cleaner and better maintained than Paris. There is simply no comparison possible. (it didn't use to be the case 15 years ago, but now it's like that)

[lio45]

I didn’t dig much beyond the surface of their report, could it be that they stuck to the most museum-like areas of Paris? (Which could conceivably be cleaner than their London counterparts, London being much more organic and “free” (a culturally Anglo thing, for the record, with its own pros and cons ))

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by lio45

I didn’t dig much beyond the surface of their report, could it be that they stuck to the most museum-like areas of Paris? (Which could conceivably be cleaner than their London counterparts, London being much more organic and “free” (a culturally Anglo thing, for the record, with its own pros and cons ))

A good description. I have been to both London and Paris. Paris is certainly more of a city of monuments and demonstrates a fair bit more central planning (thanks Haussmann). London is far more eclectic and helter-skelter, but has it's own charms (it is a far more leafy city for example), and the royal quarter around Buckingham Palace and Westminster Palace and Abbey are pretty compact. The great museums in London are every bit on par as the ones in Paris, but are haphazardly arranged. The British Museum for example feels like it located on a sidestreet off of Great Oxford.

Both cities have their charms. I would say that Paris is more grandiose but "cold". London is more rumpled but "homey".

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by lio45

I didn’t dig much beyond the surface of their report, could it be that they stuck to the most museum-like areas of Paris?

There's is no area that is spared. In the most touristic area of Le Marais, for example, garbage cans remain on the sidewalks all afternoons and early evenings, due to the new schedule of garbage collectors, from which emanate foul smell when you walk there. It's beyond me how residents accept that.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

A good description. I have been to both London and Paris. Paris is certainly more of a city of monuments and demonstrates a fair bit more central planning (thanks Haussmann). London is far more eclectic and helter-skelter, but has it's own charms (it is a far more leafy city for example), and the royal quarter around Buckingham Palace and Westminster Palace and Abbey are pretty compact. The great museums in London are every bit on par as the ones in Paris, but are haphazardly arranged. The British Museum for example feels like it located on a sidestreet off of Great Oxford.

Both cities have their charms. I would say that Paris is more grandiose but "cold". London is more rumpled but "homey".

I've never seen a description like this. But it's exactly how I feel about both cities. That said I really like the Green City 2030 initiative of the current mayor. I could see it being quite transformative if sustained.

[P'tit Renard]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

All of them. No arrondissement is spared now, not even the rich ones.

It's not just a question of dirtiness (which in itself would be almost marginal compared to the other issues), it's a question of total mismanagement and shambles: potholes everywhere, worn out surfaces because the Greens refuse to put new asphalt on the streets and avenues (supposedly the old cobblestones now revealed due to the wear and tear and disappearance of the asphalt are good to slow down car drivers), chantiers (works) everywhere that are never properly monitored by the Paris city hall, remain for years without any work going on, all sorts of security hazards, such as electrical cabinets in the streets that remain open for weeks, easily accessible by children, and never repaired by the Paris city hall, traffic lights repaired with brown tape (!) and that can fall on car drivers, 19th century street lights destroyed in many areas and never repaired or replaced, 19th century Parisian benches destroyed by the Paris city hall or sold on the black market, 19th century iron grills at the bottom of trees removed by the Paris city hall and replaced with what Parisians have named pig troughs (large squares of mud and garbage surrounded by planks of putrefying wood that remove space for pedestrians on sidewalks, and were supposed to be flowered, but are not maintained and become filled with garbage), café and restaurant terraces illegally taking up 2/3 of the space or more on the sidewalks with the blessing of the Paris city hall, bicycle riders behaving like delinquents, riding their bicycles on sidewalks, never respecting red lights, etc, again with the blessing of the Paris city hall who consider them 'climate change' heroes, improper removal of fallen leaves in the Autumn, which become a hazard, very bad management of water evacuation after the very numerous works done on roads to add ugly bike lanes, which create very large pools of water whenever it rains, which was never the case in Paris before, all sorts of obstacles on the sidewalks (pig troughs, illegal café terraces, dormant "chantiers" with palisades, billboards put right in the middle of the sidewalks by a city hall in search of money), trash cans now standing on the sidewalks all day in many arrondissements (until 10 years ago, trash cans were taken out of Parisian buildings around 6 am, collected by the garbage collectors, and put back in the buildings by 8am, every day, but now many left-wing arrondissements have decided that garbage collectors should not work in the wee hours, and instead they are scheduled to work in the late afternoon, for 'workers' right' reasons, and also because garbage collection in the afternoon and evening is good to block car traffic, the eternal obsession of the Green councilors who rule this city in alliance with the Communists and the Socialists). And I'm probably forgetting a lot of things here (such as 90% of Parisian fountains not functioning, both because of the usual mismanagement of the slackers running this city, and also because the Green councilors are opposed to using water in fountains).

You can find all of this and more on Twitter with the hashtag #saccageParis. Countless photos there that I won't post here. For the pig troughs you have to type "auges à cochon" in French. You'll quickly see what Parisians mean.

Thanks for sharing the valuable insights, and for the recommendations checking out #saccageParis and auges à cochon.

It's heartening that Parisiens like you hold your city government to such high standards. If you were to come to Toronto and see the sorry state of our public realm, I think you would want to gouge your eyes out. Every deficiency you've listed, Toronto has some form of it, plus a ton more like ugly abandoned hydro poles on our boulevards, weeds everywhere, ugly plastic garbage bins, tent cities of homeless in many of our parks etc.

In Toronto, we've suffered through over a decade of civic austerity, which voters here happily supported until a sex scandal forced his recognition. To be honest what was posted by Parisians as sacrilege and blasphemous is considered normal in central Toronto, and everyone's resigned to the fact that our ugly and dilapidated public realm will be in this state for the foreseeable future. Hopefully, the new mayor Olivia Chow can turn things around, but it's going to take a long time to right the ship and change the city's culture.

It's come to a point the suburbs are now much better managed than Paris. Stepping from the 16th arrondissement of Paris into Neuilly-sur-Seine, for instance, feels almost like going from Tijuana to San Diego (two cities I know reasonably well).

This phenomenon is very common in North America, especially in the US where wealthy enclaves carve out their own towns and demands absolute autonomy from the big city. It's also become very noticeable in Toronto, where many of the city's streets and parks are in worse condition than the nicer suburbs like Markham, Oakville and Port Credit.

I think Montreal is probably the only place where even the middle-class and wealthy banlieues are more dumpy than the island, and they're more a bit more rundown than comparable suburbs in Toronto. The roads and parks in Longueuil, Laval and Brossard are in pretty bad condition. The boulevards are littered with les cônes oranges with no construction in sight. You would find a clump of them orphaned and abandoned at a random spot like beside a park for no reason at all.

PS: I think the picture in this tweet sums up everything (not even in Caracas it's that bad): https://twitter.com/mtwit75/status/1722634089641943517

So sad that it's almost funny... this condition is very common in central Toronto, and I don't think people would even blink an eye here if they saw this here. If anything we have the ugly cheap version of it, torn up asphalt everywhere, unlevelled cracked sidewalks and hydro markings (uglier than street graffiti) that no one even bothers to wash off.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

(it is a far more leafy city for example)

It's a general misconception because tourists stay and visit only a few central areas with less parks than London. Enlarge the scope and in fact Paris has tons of woods, parks, forests (the heritage of 1,000 years of monarchy).






One my favorite places is Saint-Cloud. The royal and imperial château was unfortunately destroyed by Prussian shelling during the 1870-71 war, but the park of the château remains (it's a mix of a French royal garden and a huge wood).

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

That said I really like the Green City 2030 initiative of the current mayor. I could see it being quite transformative if sustained.

Except it's pretty much a sham, as most things she proclaims. She's a serial liar. Under her mayorship, more trees (including century old rare trees) have been cut than under all other mayors of Paris. She's a wrecker.

Check the Twitter accounts of @TanguiLeDantec or @BucheronsParis to see the scandal and hypocrisy that is tree cutting in Paris. Unfortunately 'Anglo-Saxon' journalists only fantasize Paris and don't do proper research, all too eager to copy and paste the communiqués coming from the Paris city hall to portray Paris as some sort of utopia.

[P'tit Renard]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Same in Paris.

Personally I've never been that much of a fan of Friends. I didn't find their humor funny. When I lived in the US I much preferred Third Rock from the Sun. That was much more funny.

Yes, in the Anglo world, Friends is known as comfort food humour. It's watered down, dumbed down and inoffensive, to try to appeal to as many people as possible. The writing is very one-note and simple, there's no depth to the humour.

Quebec's La Vie, La Vie, or BBC's Coupling would be more sophisticated and witty versions of the formula.

They're even sitting on couches just like Friends

[P'tit Renard]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

It's a general misconception because tourists stay and visit only a few central areas with less parks than London. Enlarge the scope and in fact Paris has tons of woods, parks, forests (the heritage of 1,000 years of monarchy).

One my favorite places is Saint-Cloud. The royal and imperial château was unfortunately destroyed by Prussian shelling during the 1870-71 war, but the park of the château remains (it's a mix of a French royal garden and a huge wood).

We spent a lot of time in Domaine de Saint-Cloud and Bois du Boulogne this time, as we were staying in Boubli. Have to agree, I even prefer them over London's Hyde and Regent park.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by P'tit Renard

If you were to come to Toronto and see the sorry state of our public realm, I think you would want to gouge your eyes out. Every deficiency you've listed, Toronto has some form of it, plus a ton more like ugly abandoned hydro poles on our boulevards, weeds everywhere, ugly plastic garbage bins, tent cities of homeless in many of our parks etc.

Dunno about Toronto, but we have a guy from #saccageParis who was recently posted in Chicago for his job, and he was quite impressed with their streets (at least in the downtown area).

See this tweet for example: https://twitter.com/EricKLein_/status/1710420659388477595

Or this one: https://twitter.com/EricKLein_/status/1710675704805773769

Or this one: https://twitter.com/EricKLein_/status/1717589001559814352

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by P'tit Renard

Have to agree, I even prefer them over London's Hyde and Regent park.

Hyde Park and Regent's Park are urban parks. Yes they are larger and better maintained than similar urban parks in Paris such as Parc Monceau, but they cannot compare with large woods and areas of nature such as Bois de Boulogne, Bois de Vincennes, Parc de Saint-Cloud, etc. London doesn't have similar woods. When I lived in London I went to Richmond Park once with my bicycle. I was expecting to find something as great as Bois de Boulogne, or Saint-Cloud, or Meudon, but it turned out to be pretty disappointing in fact.

Basically each city has what the other lacks. London has large and well maintained parks in the most central area, which Paris lacks, but once you enlarge the scope, then Paris has great royal woods and parkland that London lacks, or doesn't have to the extent Greater Paris does.

PS: Regarding your visit, note that Bois de Boulogne has degraded a lot in the past 25 years. It suffered tremendously from the December 1999 hurricane (it will never be as immensely beautiful as it was before December 1999... I'm fortunate in having known it the last few years before the hurricane, when majestic trees extended their canopy over every path), and then in the past 10 years it has suffered from mismanagement by the Paris city hall, with more and more garbage, trees senselessly cut everywhere for bogus "ecological" experiments, paths not properly maintained, brambles and nettles, etc.

As for Parc de Saint-Cloud, it is managed by the French state, and the French state does a poor job of managing it. These past 3 years I've found it more and more badly managed (fountains almost always lacking water, some half destroyed 18th century stone vases, more and more mosquitoes because they don't treat for mosquitoes with all the crazy Green lobbies we have inside the French state now, green alleys mowed but with tons of yellow hay left on the lawns instead of removing it, which is again some crazy new Green fad, increasing biodiversity by leaving hay on the lawn and whatnot). The Hauts-de-Seine departmental council would like to have Parc de Saint-Cloud transferred to them, and they would probably manage it much better than the French state, but so far it's been impossible to organize the transfer because... of a remnant of 10 state employees working on the formerly royal estate of Saint-Cloud who get high salaries and luxurious working conditions, and refuse to be transferred to the Hauts-de-Seine departmental council! Incredible but true! (I discovered that last year)

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by P'tit Renard

Yes, in the Anglo world, Friends is known as comfort food humour. It's watered down, dumbed down and inoffensive, to try to appeal to as many people as possible. The writing is very one-note and simple, there's no depth to the humour.

Quebec's La Vie, La Vie, or BBC's Coupling would be more sophisticated and witty versions of the formula.

They're even sitting on couches just like Friends

Hey you know La Vie la vie! What a great show. Quite popular with my generation.

[P'tit Renard]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Dunno about Toronto, but we have a guy from #saccageParis who was recently posted in Chicago for his job, and he was quite impressed with their streets (at least in the downtown area).

See this tweet for example: https://twitter.com/EricKLein_/status/1710420659388477595

Or this one: https://twitter.com/EricKLein_/status/1710675704805773769

Or this one: https://twitter.com/EricKLein_/status/1717589001559814352

Yes, Chicago is a city of extremes and segregation. They devote a lot of money maintaining the CBD (central loop), but half of the city on the south side is crime-infested and rundown, that it can make Seine-Saint-Denis look idyllic in comparison.

For Toronto, it's the opposite of Chicago in the sense there isn't a scary or dilapidated neighbourhood, but nothing in the central city is well maintained either. Here's a taste of the conditions within 2-3km of city hall:

Fountain right in the heart of the tourist district: https://twitter.com/iamdavidmiller/statu...-fountain-currently-embarrassing-mess%2F

Common sight in Toronto.. overflowing and ugly rubbish bins: https://twitter.com/shawnmicallef/status/1546295664044392448
https://twitter.com/nejsnave/status/1471148174094086156/photo/1

Ridiculous highway style billboards allowing for "drinking" as a pilot:
https://twitter.com/RichardCityNews/status/1686713004052680704

One of the dog parks we used to frequent, before it got taken over. The police cleared it last year, but it's bigger than ever now, and there's even a Cuban flag flying over it: https://twitter.com/ESNParkdale/status/1536033297863671808

Allan Gardens, where Toronto's conservatory is located. Don't agree with the poster's MAGA politics, but the picture isn't doctored: https://twitter.com/SueAnnLevy/status/1699806300438192304/photo/1

Toronto's Yonge Street (probably equivalent to rue de Rivoli): https://twitter.com/mightygodking/status...%3Fresponsive%3Dtrueis_nightmode%3Dfalse

Toronto's Bloor Street (supposedly the Champs Elsyees equivalent)..even that street is marred by all the hydro markings: https://twitter.com/BikeShame/status/1724866828176928828/photo/1

John Street, where the Toronto Film Festival is located: https://urbantoronto.ca/forum/threads/shabby-public-realm.18471/post-1976001
https://urbantoronto.ca/forum/threads/shabby-public-realm.18471/post-1953602

Peak Toronto lol: https://twitter.com/GraphicMatt/status/1...ds%2Fshabby-public-realm.18471%2Fpage-60

Five years of "temporary fencing" lol: https://urbantoronto.ca/forum/threads/shabby-public-realm.18471/post-1529794

Admittedly, the condition now is still better than Montreal in the 1990s. Around that time, many parks and public spaces looked abandoned and some of the streets on the island had so many potholes you couldn't even drive down them and had to take detours. Didn't help that there were a lot of abandoned lots and buildings at the time. Even during the Denis Coderre era in the mid 2010s, things were noticeably improving, but there were still a lot of dumpy and unloved parks and streets on the island.

It's really the last couple years with the revitalization of so many parks (LaFontaine, Carre Philips, Lachine etc.), rues piétonnes and public realm investments that has changed the metropole's fabric for the better.

[New Brisavoine]

^^The big difference of course is the fact France is the most taxed country in the world. With the record level of taxes, the general situation of Paris is absolutely inexcusable.

I also wonder why Montréal doesn't grow more than Toronto if it's better managed than Toronto, and not as overcrowded. Toronto is fast approaching the point where more population will have more negative externalities than positive sides (if it hasn't reached that point already).

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Hyde Park and Regent's Park are urban parks. Yes they are larger and better maintained than similar urban parks in Paris such as Parc Monceau, but they cannot compare with large woods and areas of nature such as Bois de Boulogne, Bois de Vincennes, Parc de Saint-Cloud, etc. London doesn't have similar woods. When I lived in London I went to Richmond Park once with my bicycle. I was expecting to find something as great as Bois de Boulogne, or Saint-Cloud, or Meudon, but it turned out to be pretty disappointing in fact.

Basically each city has what the other lacks. London has large and well maintained parks in the most central area, which Paris lacks, but once you enlarge the scope, then Paris has great royal woods and parkland that London lacks, or doesn't have to the extent Greater Paris does.

PS: Regarding your visit, note that Bois de Boulogne has degraded a lot in the past 25 years. It suffered tremendously from the December 1999 hurricane (it will never be as immensely beautiful as it was before December 1999... I'm fortunate in having known it the last few years before the hurricane, when majestic trees extended their canopy over every path), and then in the past 10 years it has suffered from mismanagement by the Paris city hall, with more and more garbage, trees senselessly cut everywhere for bogus "ecological" experiments, paths not properly maintained, brambles and nettles, etc.

As for Parc de Saint-Cloud, it is managed by the French state, and the French state does a poor job of managing it. These past 3 years I've found it more and more badly managed (fountains almost always lacking water, some half destroyed 18th century stone vases, more and more mosquitoes because they don't treat for mosquitoes with all the crazy Green lobbies we have inside the French state now, green alleys mowed but with tons of yellow hay left on the lawns instead of removing it, which is again some crazy new Green fad, increasing biodiversity by leaving hay on the lawn and whatnot). The Hauts-de-Seine departmental council would like to have Parc de Saint-Cloud transferred to them, and they would probably manage it much better than the French state, but so far it's been impossible to organize the transfer because... of a remnant of 10 state employees working on the formerly royal estate of Saint-Cloud who get high salaries and luxurious working conditions, and refuse to be transferred to the Hauts-de-Seine departmental council! Incredible but true! (I discovered that last year)

Hampstead Heath? Richmond Park?