Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Zeej

No, Anglo Quebec is a hybrid, not an extension of the ROC. According to Jean-Marc Leger in his book Cracking the Quebec Code, Anglo-Quebec leans 60% ROC, 40% ROQ. Far from being an extension of either, it's a highly nuanced group that neither Quebec nor Canada particularily bothers to understand. While Leger's publication is still obviously somewhat general, it was one of the first to try to scratch the surface.

It is unfortunate that at times, its loudest voices (Gazette, people who have time to call into CJAD to rant etc.,) are the most out-dated (there is of course, a reason for this and that reason is largely its Postmedia overlords). However, the silent majority of anglo-Quebecers are keenly aware of what's at play in Quebec and are allied with efforts to promote and grow the French language.

I tend to be of this view as well, though I am noting that the Anglo community in Quebec is drifting a bit more towards Anglo North American norms as opposed to maintaining that hybrid balance I've also observed. To use just one example that comes to mind, they have a very different take and approach on woke vs. non-woke from Quebec's francophone majority. Even from most francophone Montrealers who are on the left, I'd say.

This isn't at all unique to the Anglo-Quebec community BTW, and many people are hunkering down into their innermost core in-groups these days. The end result is that you're less focused on the commonalities you might have with people outside your immediate in-group, and those commonalities as a result are less likely to emerge, or they may weaken or break down when they already exist.

The French refer to this trend as "atomisation".

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by harls

Really? Any grocery store you go to in Gatineau all products are bilingual. I think that is the law. Same as in Vancouver or Edmonton or Halifax.

The only thing here is that if French is on one side, they turn the label to face you.



The only places I see English only signs are dépanneurs run by Chinese owners... and not just in my apparent anglo bastion of Aylmer, in the old city of Gatineau where you live.

All it would take is one call from a busy body to the OQLF to get them to comply.

My kid made a couple of signs on my door for Halloween - Knock if you dare / Cogne si tu oses. My older kid joked that the French one should have been bigger and above the English one.

Cute!

[harls]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

So, continuing with the Beatles analogy

No one has mentioned the 1980 referendum and the death of Lennon yet.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by harls

No one has mentioned the 1980 referendum and the death of Lennon yet.

Indeed. Another parallel (although the referendum was only a near death experience).

I remember these events quite well.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

At the 2011 Scottish census, among the population of residents of Scotland born in the UK and whose age was 18-24, 11.6% were born in the UK outside of Scotland. For those age 16-17 it was only 6.6%.

Other questions?

That's a difference of 5%. So at the absolute highest "English students" can't be more than 5%. Certainly not high enough to solely explain the substantially weaker separatist vote among that age group.

[Acajack]

Most interesting to me in the debate over Scotland's referendum is the fact that 16-year-olds were allowed to vote.

I believe that this is something that the Parti Québécois flirted with briefly at one point but of course never implemented.

[MonctonRad]

16 is too young to vote. People that age are too suggestible. 18 is fine. If you are old enough to die for your country, then you are old enough to vote.

[Zeej]

Originally Posted by Acajack

This isn't at all unique to the Anglo-Quebec community BTW, and many people are hunkering down into their innermost core in-groups these days. The end result is that you're less focused on the commonalities you might have with people outside your immediate in-group, and those commonalities as a result are less likely to emerge, or they may weaken or break down when they already exist.

Very much agree on this trend in general. Quite unfortunate.

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by harls

No one has mentioned the 1980 referendum and the death of Lennon yet.

Had the "Oui" side won, it would have been almost as tragic as the untimely death of John Lennon.

Both events had a huge effect on my life at the time (as an 11 year old, massive Beatles fan, living in Montreal).

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I tend to be of this view as well, though I am noting that the Anglo community in Quebec is drifting a bit more towards Anglo North American norms as opposed to maintaining that hybrid balance I've also observed. To use just one example that comes to mind, they have a very different take and approach on woke vs. non-woke from Quebec's francophone majority. Even from most francophone Montrealers who are on the left, I'd say.

This isn't at all unique to the Anglo-Quebec community BTW, and many people are hunkering down into their innermost core in-groups these days. The end result is that you're less focused on the commonalities you might have with people outside your immediate in-group, and those commonalities as a result are less likely to emerge, or they may weaken or break down when they already exist.

The French refer to this trend as "atomisation".

We use this term as well. But I think this is an exaggeration. From my own perspective, I can't recall a time ever before when Quebec Anglos were as comfortable with the dominant language and cultural situation in Quebec. There is far more French-English unions than there was in the old days, when not just language, but religion separated the two solitudes (I myself am Catholic, so it was not so much an issue for me...as well as for a lot of Irish-Montrealers, who served as linchpins between Francos and Anglos given their command of English but Catholic faith). Most of my GFs were francophones. Montreal is not interchangeable with Quebec (Province) but then, that is almost all the remaining Anglos are found.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by harls

Cogne si tu oses.

Seriously? You know what that means in French?

A case of 'lost in translation' I'm afraid.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

The French refer to this trend as "atomisation".

Polarisation et atomisation... the two traits of today's society.

PS: If you want to be high-brow and pedantic à la Macron, you say "anomie". He loves that word for some reason.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

That's a difference of 5%. So at the absolute highest "English students" can't be more than 5%. Certainly not high enough to solely explain the substantially weaker separatist vote among that age group.

That's a difference of 5 percentage points first of all, not 5%, and the big difference is a lot of these 11.6% are recently arrived, whereas the 6.6% among the 16-17 group is probably in Scotland since longer (typically kids born in England when their parents worked there, but who have lived in Scotland since they were 5 or 10 y/o, say), so it's not surprising that recently arrived people from England would vote NO, whereas teenagers who've been in Scotland since they can remember would be more likely to vote YES.

In any case, the graph is clear: the older the people, the more they voted NO. I didn't think we would have to argue about something that is so obvious and was in all the media at the time of the Scottish referendum!

[niwell]

RE: Scotland and the relative voting percentage by age - I'm not sure we can read too much into the fact that younger people were less likely to vote "Yes" to independence and views on Nationalism. Keeping in mind that at the time there was very much a concern with Scotland's future place in the EU and relations with the rest of the UK. Anecdotally friends I have from Scotland and those living there now seem much more in-tune with the SNP than at the time, when they were worried at the thought of potential separation. While not that long ago in absolute terms a lot has changed since then. Many seem increasingly disillusioned with the direction the UK is going as a whole and animosity towards the Labour party has grown, much less the Tories. Relative differences between Scottish "values" has grown, if anything.

Wales is a different case, in part because of actions by Thatcher (of all people) to ameliorate economic losses with the re-introduction of the Welsh language into daily life. Older generations have distinct memories of being punished for speaking Welsh while younger people are increasingly likely to at least have a passing knowledge of the language. At one point Welsh was defacto removed from public life, whereas now anything official at least provides the option.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Seriously? You know what that means in French?

A case of 'lost in translation' I'm afraid.

I don't believe that's a term we use here.

Just like "rouler une pelle". No one says that here and most people don't even know it.

[harls]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Seriously? You know what that means in French?

A case of 'lost in translation' I'm afraid.

Take it up with his Québécoise mom, I guess.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Just like "rouler une pelle". No one says that here and most people don't even know it.

I don't use it either! Yurk!

You guys know only 18th century love I suppose, and are not quite attuned to 19th century developments of said love.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

I don't use it either! Yurk!

You guys know only 18th century love I suppose, and are not quite attuned with 19th century developments of said love.

19th century love was quite good to us it seems, if you look at our birth rates at the time!

[harls]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

I don't use it either! Yurk!

Ahem.. it's pronounced beurk.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by niwell

RE: Scotland and the relative voting percentage by age - I'm not sure we can read too much into the fact that younger people were less likely to vote "Yes" to independence and views on Nationalism. Keeping in mind that at the time there was very much a concern with Scotland's future place in the EU and relations with the rest of the UK. Anecdotally friends I have from Scotland and those living there now seem much more in-tune with the SNP than at the time, when they were worried at the thought of potential separation. While not that long ago in absolute terms a lot has changed since then. Many seem increasingly disillusioned with the direction the UK is going as a whole and animosity towards the Labour party has grown, much less the Tories. Relative differences between Scottish "values" has grown, if anything.

That's true, but on the other hand the SNP seems to be nearing the end of its time in power, voter weariness + corruption scandals, Nicola Sturgeon resigned, giving way to an unknown guy of non-Scottish heritage. Labour seem confident they can win the next election in Scotland. Add to that the fact the British government refuse to allow a new independence referendum (media said it would be unthinkable in Canada, but in the UK, as in Spain, the central government now refuse to allow an independence referendum), and the UK Supreme Court ruled that the Scottish government cannot organize a referendum without authorization from Westminster, and unlike the Catalans, the SNP is not daring to organize an illegal referendum, so I think it's over for them now, at least for the foreseeable future. There's more chance of a new referendum in Québec than in Scotland I think.