Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

The foreign agitator lying and misrepresenting the situation? Shocker.

I was really surprised when I first learned how little power even the devolved Scottish Parliament has. Regions in France or Italy have even less. So I can absolutely understand the frustration in those places where their provinces really are reduce to compromise economic colonies of the central government. We don't have anything close to this in. Canada.

It's said (jokingly) that there are numerous islands in the south Pacific where you can't install a stop sign without the approval of a bureaucrat in Paris!

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by begratto

Brisavoine, contrarily to most people here, has access to the Quebec media and understands it. He can read our news sites, watch our news, understand better the point of view of Quebec commentators, etc.

His worldview isn't limited to what he reads in the Montreal Gazette, Globe & Mail, National Post or when he watches CTV news or Global.

I think it gives him the right to come and express his opinions here.

Point in case :



I mean, you wouldn't read that in the National Post, for sure.

He's not necessarily more out of touch with the views of average Quebecers than a lot of the people on here that we share passports and currency with.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by thewave46

John Lennon was the glue of the Beatles.

Quebec occupies a similar role in Canada.

Was he incessantly annoying to them as well?

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Was he incessantly annoying to them as well?

Yoko was.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by thurmas

Also the 2nd and major factor in sovereignty appeals comeback was Lucien Bouchard and his charisma he was miles ahead of Parizeau in popularity and a major reason why Jaques poached him from Mulroney's Tories.

Yes, Lucien Bouchard certainly played a major role. But at the end of the day it was Parizeau who had the guts (and political flair) to launch the referendum, not Bouchard. Politicians with that sort of boldness and flair are few and far between. If it had been for Lucien Bouchard alone, there would probably never have been a 2nd referendum, and we wouldn't even remember his name today.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Zeej

I'm not so sure Scotland is much more integrated with the UK than Quebec is with Canada.

Linguistic differences aside, a considerable amount of Canada's goings-on, particularly economic, occurs within Quebec (specifically Montreal). The same cannot be said for Scotland which accounts for a much lower share of the UK's population and ecnonomy than Quebec does for Canada's.

Even geographically, Scotland is remote in the UK context. A lot goes through Quebec. Just a lot. Your argument hinges mostly on linguistic and cultural differences, but ignores the reality on the ground. Hell, some of Canada's capital functions occur within Quebec (Environment Canada is based in Gatineau, for example).

I basically had my response ready as soon as I saw Brisavoine give Scotland as an example, as it's a popular "meme" in Canada to say that Scotland is more distinct from Britain (England, really) than Quebec is from the ROC.

The real answer to that is... yes and no.

Yes, Quebec is part of what you might call "metropolitan Canada" and this even leads some people to say that Quebec is actually less different from the rest of the country than Newfoundland is.

That said, while downplayed in Canada, language really does make a huge difference. The Proclaimers and Robbie Burns are totally accessible to everyone in England in ways that Les Colocs or Émile Nelligan are not to the vast majority of people in the ROC.

An Englishman moving to Scotland will be relatively plug-and-play in a way that a ROC could never dream of fitting in in Quebec. (Assuming that that many ROCers would even consider moving to Quebec.) Even Montreal with the large institutional network of the anglo community there is way more of a fish-out-water experience than moving from England to any city in Scotland.

[thewave46]

It's an internet forum, so people can indulge whatever they desire.

It's odd in a sense, though. Like Canadians who can't stop commenting on America issues. Or continually venturing their opinion on the status of Scotland vis-a-vis the UK. Or Brexit.

Yeah, the language is the same. I can understand The Economist and The Herald quite well, thanks. I'm just not a local, so putting my fingers in that pie seems...untoward. I've my opinions certainly, but they just aren't dozens upon dozens of posts on a subforum. It's just a little too...incongruous.

Whereas Quebec and its relationship to Canada are home, even if my command of the language isn't up to par. I get a first-hand ride on the involuntary divorce train if we go there, for all the messiness it entails.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Separation for them could be portrayed as an economic benefit. And plenty of their campaign in Scotland argued for just that (substituting the EU for the UK). Very difficult to make that argument in Quebec which has major global industries that would consider leaving if separation happened.

In fact pro-union politicians argued over and over that independence would be bad economically for Scotland. I don't know what you imagine about Scotland's economy, but it too depends on financial transfers from London. North Sea oil fields are largely depleted, and Scotland's economy is not as developed as England. In pure economic terms, independence for Scotland was as much a leap of faith as for Québec. Yes it could work out well (as per Irish example), and a smaller, nimbler country catering to its own needs could become a successful economy, but no more or no less than Québec, and with some uncertainties, as is the case for Québec too.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by thewave46

It's an internet forum, so people can indulge whatever they desire.

It's odd in a sense, though. Like Canadians who can't stop commenting on America issues. Or continually venturing their opinion on the status of Scotland vis-a-vis the UK. Or Brexit.

Yeah, the language is the same. I can understand The Economist and The Herald quite well, thanks. I'm just not a local, so putting my fingers in that pie seems...untoward. I've my opinions certainly, but they just aren't dozens upon dozens of posts on a subforum. It's just a little too...incongruous.

Whereas Quebec and its relationship to Canada are home, even if my command of the language isn't up to par. I get a first-hand ride on the involuntary divorce train if we go there, for all the messiness it entails.

I was just going to point out that Canadians have not been shy about posting millions and millions of messages about US politics, on this forum and countless others.

(Maybe not you though.)

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by thewave46

John Lennon was the glue of the Beatles.

Quebec occupies a similar role in Canada.

John Lennon could speak with Paul McCartney without the assistance of a translator though.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Yoko was.

Christ, you know it ain't easy.

[thewave46]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Was he incessantly annoying to them as well?

He certainly evolved into his own person from the formation of the band to their breakup in 1970. Indeed, somewhat more a parallel than I intended.

Ringo or George? They could pack it in, and the band might have made it.

Lennon or McCartney? Not so much.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

Actually, in Scotland, younger folks were less likely to vote for independence:

PS: Of note, many of the 18-24 electorate were English natives, studying in Scottish universities which are cheaper than English universities, and who were eligible to vote. Anyone residing in Scotland was eligible to vote. Native Scots residing in England were not eligible to vote.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Go look at GDP per capita for the provinces. And then, try and remember that Quebec is in North America, before you look up GDP per capita of American states. Quebec's GDP per capita at today's exchange rate is on par with Mississippi.

All of which proves how dubious GDP per capita can be when it comes to the typical standard of living in a place.

What looks like it's in better shape on the ground: Quebec or Mississippi?

Would you rather be an average Mississippian or an average Quebecer?

[thewave46]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I was just going to point out that Canadians have not been shy about posting millions and millions of messages about US politics, on this forum and countless others.

(Maybe not you though.)

Yeah, it's not really my jam, and I think the obsession some of my countrymen have about it is kind of weird. What do I care of the nomination aspects of a US Supreme Court justice, or what Senator X from State Y thinks about whatever topic.

Oh, as it affects me, or the Western world I inhabit, sure. Watching the Trump drama on CNN? I have better uses of my time.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

John Lennon could speak with Paul McCartney without the assistance of a translator though.

Yoko no doubt could have benefitted from a translator though, and, I’m sure there was a larger cultural disconnect between Liverpool and Tokyo than exists between Montreal and Toronto

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by thewave46

He certainly evolved into his own person from the formation of the band to their breakup in 1970. Indeed, somewhat more a parallel than I intended.

Ringo or George? They could pack it in, and the band might have made it.

Lennon or McCartney? Not so much.

Macca as Ontario also fits quite well.

Ringo of course would be Newfoundland.

Alberta has a Pete Best complex.

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Macca as Ontario also fits quite well.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

How could I possibly forget that?

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

All of which proves how dubious GDP per capita can be when it comes to the typical standard of living in a place.

What looks like it's in better shape on the ground: Quebec or Mississippi?

Would you rather be an average Mississippian or an average Quebecer?

He's wrong in any case. I've had a look at 2019 figures (last year before Covid). That year the GDP per capita of Québec was 45,458 PPP USD. The GDP per capita of Mississippi was only 38,978 PPP USD.

In fact Québec's GDP per capita is more comparable to Idaho's. In 2019 the GDP per capita of Idaho was 46,529 PPP USD.

Note that Québec's GDP per capita slightly understates the actual standard of living in Québec, because of commuters to Ottawa (the GDP contribution of these residents of Québec doesn't show up in the GDP of Québec). So once accounting for this statistical bias, it's safe to say Québec is at the same level as Idaho.

Ontario's GDP per capita (slightly overvalued due to Québec commuters to Ottawa) stood at 51,402 PPP USD in 2019. This is the same level as Maine (50,964 PPP USD in 2019).

In parenthesis, Idaho is one of the most attractive and dynamic states in the US at the moment. Boise is booming.