Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[Laceoflight]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

First Nations will suddenly be thrilled to be going from living in a colonized country to a wannabe ethnostate where their rights are likely to further circumscribed.

That is a misconception that people, especially from anglo-Canada, seem to have when thinking about the separation project. The goal has always been for Quebec to negociate the contours of the new state from nation to nation with the First Nations. If anything, First Nations and Inuits of Quebec would gain rights from separation, at least by getting rid of that racist Indian Act. I am not stating my own opinion here.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Laceoflight

That is a misconception that people, especially from anglo-Canada, seem to have when thinking about the separation project. The goal has always been for Quebec to negociate the contours of the new state from nation to nation with the First Nations. If anything, First Nations and Inuits of Quebec would gain rights from separation, at least by getting rid of that racist Indian Act. I am not stating my own opinion here.

All kinds of promises are always made in these campaigns. But the truth is nobody knows really happens when you cross the abyss.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

All kinds of promises are always made in these campaigns. But the truth is nobody knows really happens when you cross the abyss.

I was reminded of this by Someone 123's assertion a few posts back that he'd be eligible for Quebec citizenship, even though he apparently lives in Vancouver.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Who cares what Jacques Parizeau knew about capitalism? He certainly wasn't motivated it. And guess campaign for separatism wasn't all that motivated by economic and capitalist concerns. He simply said what he had to say, to sell the vision.

And broadly that worked. Plenty of separatists routinely minimize and play down the economic risks of separation. This was my point.

And this is very different from sovereignist policies that promote, protect and push linguistic or cultural priorities. Most of that is not really threatening to capital at a fundamental level.

I only posted about that because you made a very general comment about Quebecers not understanding capital(ism). Of course the reality is that some Quebecers do and some Quebecers don't. Parizeau is just a really good example of someone who understood it really really well, and who happened to be for independence. The two are not necessarily mutually exclusive, though yes it's true we all can sometimes make compromises for ideology.

It's completely illogical for a Canadian who believes that the economy and wealth generation trump everything to be in favour of maintaining an international border and the US. And yet there are many Canadians who are very smart in economic matters who are dead-set against that.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Acajack

It's completely illogical for a Canadian who believes that the economy and wealth generation trump everything to be in favour of maintaining an international border and the US. And yet there are many Canadians who are very smart in economic matters who are dead-set against that.

I'm not sure what strawman you're arguing against here. Nobody ever said the economy is all that matters. This thread of discussion started over the idea that Québec would be just fine (economically) as a sovereign state, the allusion, of course, that it might even be better off. That is what I was calling it. That sounds like the Quebec separatist version of the handwaving served up by Brexiters. I would agree that economics is not all that matters (though I'd argue people often quickly discover it's more important than they thought after the fact.... See Brexit). And I would even agree that an independent Québec might be better able to protect its language and culture (though not nearly as much as Québecers imagine, in my opinion). But I find it strange to argue that in the turmoil that follows the breaking up of Canada, that capital wouldn't flee. And not just Québec, but Canada too. If most Québecers didn't just handwave this, I'd say it's a principled choice. But given the way, most Québecers think it would just automagically work out, I'm inclined to think it's more Brexit brain then principled choice.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

I'm not sure what strawman you're arguing against here. Nobody ever said the economy is all that matters. This thread of discussion started over the idea that Québec would be just fine (economically) as a sovereign state, the allusion, of course, that it might even be better off. That is what I was calling it. That sounds like the Quebec separatist version of the handwaving served up by Brexiters. I would agree that economics is not all that matters (though I'd argue people often quickly discover it's more important than they thought after the fact.... See Brexit). And I would even agree that an independent Québec might be better able to protect its language and culture (though not nearly as much as Québecers imagine, in my opinion). But I find it strange to argue that in the turmoil that follows the breaking up of Canada, that capital wouldn't flee. And not just Québec, but Canada too. If most Québecers didn't just handwave this, I'd say it's a principled choice. But given the way, most Québecers think it would just automagically work out, I'm inclined to think it's more Brexit brain then principled choice.

Even the PQ leader admits there would be some degree of turmoil. He has an MBA from Oxford, BTW!

[whatnext]

Sad to anti-semitism is alive and well in Quebec:


Two Jewish schools in Montreal were shot up with administrators finding bullets in the door as they arrived to start the day on Thursday.

Meanwhile, angry and violent scenes at Concordia University where three were injured in an altercation when “pro-Palestinian” protestors objected to an information table from Jewish students on the hostages Hamas took on Oct. 7. The words “pro-Palestinian” are in quotations because if you are objecting to someone being concerned about the hostages, you aren’t pro-Palestinian, you are pro-Hamas – a terrorist organization.

“Go back to Poland, whore,” a man identified as Yanise Arab, a lecturer at the University of Montreal, can be heard saying...

https://torontosun.com/opinion/columnist...ents-attacked-synagogue-bombed-in-a-week

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by whatnext

Sad to anti-semitism is alive and well in Quebec:


Two Jewish schools in Montreal were shot up with administrators finding bullets in the door as they arrived to start the day on Thursday.

Meanwhile, angry and violent scenes at Concordia University where three were injured in an altercation when “pro-Palestinian” protestors objected to an information table from Jewish students on the hostages Hamas took on Oct. 7. The words “pro-Palestinian” are in quotations because if you are objecting to someone being concerned about the hostages, you aren’t pro-Palestinian, you are pro-Hamas – a terrorist organization.

“Go back to Poland, whore,” a man identified as Yanise Arab, a lecturer at the University of Montreal, can be heard saying...

https://torontosun.com/opinion/columnist...ents-attacked-synagogue-bombed-in-a-week

This definitely isn't your pépère's anti-semitism, but it still is horrible.

[vanatox]

Why is this posted in this thread with the anti-Quebec undertone? Pretty pathetic even from one of the most pathetic poster here.

Anti-semitism is sadly alive and well everywhere in Canada. Just have to look online. Anti-semitic incidents have been sadly super common in the last few weeks in our big cities (TO and Mtl mostly given the size of their Jewish population).

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

I'm not sure what strawman you're arguing against here. Nobody ever said the economy is all that matters. This thread of discussion started over the idea that Québec would be just fine (economically) as a sovereign state, the allusion, of course, that it might even be better off. That is what I was calling it. That sounds like the Quebec separatist version of the handwaving served up by Brexiters. I would agree that economics is not all that matters (though I'd argue people often quickly discover it's more important than they thought after the fact.... See Brexit). And I would even agree that an independent Québec might be better able to protect its language and culture (though not nearly as much as Québecers imagine, in my opinion). But I find it strange to argue that in the turmoil that follows the breaking up of Canada, that capital wouldn't flee. And not just Québec, but Canada too. If most Québecers didn't just handwave this, I'd say it's a principled choice. But given the way, most Québecers think it would just automagically work out, I'm inclined to think it's more Brexit brain then principled choice.

Ireland is richer since it left the UK. Comparisons with Brexit are non sequitur, since the EU is not a federal state, it's only a lose association of countries.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Ireland is richer since it left the UK. Comparisons with Brexit are non sequitur, since the EU is not a federal state, it's only a lose association of countries.

Ireland is a nice little money laundering operation (err corporate tax shelter) inside the Eurozone. What's Quebec's game plan? Y'all going to launder USD right across from New York State? And that would be more of an honest economic plan than I've heard from any separatist.

[P'tit Renard]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Ireland is richer since it left the UK. Comparisons with Brexit are non sequitur, since the EU is not a federal state, it's only a lose association of countries.

ASEAN, British Commonwealth, Francophonie are examples of loose association of countries. EU is legally and politically much more than that.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by someone123

I think this would work out a lot better than a leftist unaligned or third world style government from the 70's but hasn't the idea that Quebec could leave and integrate well with North America taken a big hit lately?

We just had a pandemic where the US-Canada border was closed for months and restricted for years, something few people talked about in 2019.

We still have 9/11-era border controls and the US is less Canada-oriented than perhaps before the Cold War.

The UK voted for Brexit in 2016 and it's pretty much been a disaster. I'd argue it obviously had a lot of clarity-related issues just like the Quebec referendums (there was no real democratic process or transparency around the specific renegotiation details), and the UK was more autonomous in the EU than Quebec is in Canada.

The world is becoming less and less stable and the USA is looking shakier as the guarantor of global peace. Quebec wants to maintain far-flung arctic territories.

I'm not against Quebec separating or North America developing a Schengen-like arrangement. Actually I think this could be better. I'd be eligible for citizenship if Quebec were a country. I just don't think it would work out well in practice because neither Canada nor the US are very functional right now.

Brexit was a disaster, but not all contemporary examples of separatism are bad. The dissolution of Czechoslovakia went very smoothly, for example.

Which is even more surprising considering that the dissolution of that country wasn't actually well supported. Only around 30% of Slovaks actually wanted independence, from what I gather. It basically happened almost by accident. Czech and Slovak politicians had a very different idea of how the Czechoslovak federation should be structured and the country was in the process of reorganizing its entire government and economy with the fall of communism, and it was essentially decided that splitting the country was easier than trying to negotiate a federal structure on top of all the other reforms that had to happen at the same time.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

I was reminded of this by Someone 123's assertion a few posts back that he'd be eligible for Quebec citizenship, even though he apparently lives in Vancouver.

This forum sometimes... I didn't mean to suggest I have a crystal ball. I'm saying that I've got personal ties there sufficient to qualify for citizenship in a typical country, and my point in adding that was that I am interested in a good outcome for Quebec too.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Ireland is richer since it left the UK. Comparisons with Brexit are non sequitur, since the EU is not a federal state, it's only a lose association of countries.

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Ireland is a nice little money laundering operation (err corporate tax shelter) inside the Eurozone. What's Quebec's game plan? Y'all going to launder USD right across from New York State? And that would be more of an honest economic plan than I've heard from any separatist.

To add on to Truenorth's point - it should be noted that until Ireland got its tax haven operation going, Ireland spent the first 70 years of its independence being considerably poorer than Britain. It, was in fact, the poorest country in Western Europe for much of that period.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

Brexit was a disaster, but not all contemporary examples of separatism are bad. The dissolution of Czechoslovakia went very smoothly, for example.

That is true but I think most Canadian observers would feel that Brexit affects their views more than Czechoslovakia. Every situation is different. I would not pretend to be an expert on Czechoslovakia, but it wasn't very old or independent, and it had the wider EU (and preceding) frameworks to guide it toward European integration. Quebec separation would just be Quebec vs. Canada likely with the USA being a blend of indifferent and paralyzed.

[Truenorth00]

The dissolution of Czechoslovakia also, prima facie, seems easier. They had two clear contiguous and stable successor states. And their dissolution happened in the immediate aftermath of the end of the USSR and Yugoslavia. Breaking up countries was kind of fashionable back then. These days? Just imagine the rough ride certain separatist regions would get in Europe. Imagine how Basque or Catalonian separatism would be received in Europe today.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by someone123

That is true but I think most Canadian observers would feel that Brexit affects their views more than Czechoslovakia. Every situation is different. I would not pretend to be an expert on Czechoslovakia, but it wasn't very old or independent, and it had the wider EU (and preceding) frameworks to guide it toward European integration. Quebec separation would just be Quebec vs. Canada likely with the USA being a blend of indifferent and paralyzed.

The integration of Czechia and Slovakia into the EU was far from a certainty when they split in 1992, and in fact only happened about a dozen years later. I highly doubt that was front-of-mind for Klaus and Meciar at the time.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

The dissolution of Czechoslovakia also, prima facie, seems easier. They had two clear contiguous and stable successor states. And their dissolution happened in the immediate aftermath of the end of the USSR and Yugoslavia. Breaking up countries was kind of fashionable back then. These days? Just imagine the rough ride certain separatist regions would get in Europe. Imagine how Basque or Catalonian separatism would be received in Europe today.

A Canadian province (most of them really, not just Quebec) is certainly every bit as viable an independent successor state as the Czech Socialist Republic and Slovak Socialist Republic that made up Czechoslovakia were.

Canadian provinces already have many if not most of the responsibilities that national-level governments take on in the majority of the world's countries: education, healthcare, police, social welfare and services, highways, courts, etc. They'd just need to beef these up and add a few more like national defence, borders and customs, international relations (which some provinces already do to a point) - admittedly these are biggies but it's not as if they'd be starting from scratch. Far from it.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

To add on to Truenorth's point - it should be noted that until Ireland got its tax haven operation going, Ireland spent the first 70 years of its independence being considerably poorer than Britain. It, was in fact, the poorest country in Western Europe for much of that period.

So at any point during those first seventy years, you would have told the Irish that they’re stupid and that they should immediately vote to reunify with the UK?

If not, then what’s your point? Québécois sovereigntists aren’t arguing we’d do better than if we stayed in Canada. Sovereignty is pretty much never mostly about “the economy”.