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  #1661  
Old Posted Oct 27, 2023, 8:26 PM
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MonctonRad MonctonRad is offline
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Originally Posted by MonctonianSentinel01 View Post
:if that makes you feel any better.
No, not really.

Loyalist Square it is!

As far as common council is concerned, are NBers now supposed to feel ashamed of their Loyalist roots??? Who's idea was this anyway???
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  #1662  
Old Posted Oct 27, 2023, 9:06 PM
DyAm00394 DyAm00394 is offline
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Booster Juice has now permanently closed at Brunswick Square.
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  #1663  
Old Posted Oct 27, 2023, 9:30 PM
cdnguys cdnguys is offline
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Originally Posted by MonctonianSentinel01 View Post


Seems like they are getting pretty foolish with names all around, if that makes you feel any better.
Oh we had consultants suggest changing uptown to downtown, and reversing falls to The Fundy Vortex. Semi-ironic, in front of the boardwalk is “Pat Rocca Way” who was Italian, so matches the phonetic of the gathering place.
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  #1664  
Old Posted Oct 27, 2023, 9:30 PM
adamuptownsj adamuptownsj is offline
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Originally Posted by MonctonRad View Post
No, not really.

Loyalist Square it is!

As far as common council is concerned, are NBers now supposed to feel ashamed of their Loyalist roots??? Who's idea was this anyway???
It already had a name! A relevant, local, and historical one. Gathering Place? When? For who? This would have been underwater at high tide for most of history. The use of a language literally no one alive speaks as a first language, and probably less than 0.1% of Saint John residents understand, is outright perplexing. It doesn't even use English orthography (i.e.; Kennebecasis, Oromocto, Quispamsis, Nashwaaksis, etc). It is not even a pre-Loyalist place name for the area
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  #1665  
Old Posted Oct 27, 2023, 10:16 PM
sailor734 sailor734 is offline
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Absurd PC pandering.

It's Loyalist Plaza. Curious to know what happened to the large rock monument commemorating the 1783 landing that used to be there.

Last edited by sailor734; Oct 27, 2023 at 11:04 PM.
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  #1666  
Old Posted Oct 28, 2023, 12:22 PM
Pugsley Pugsley is offline
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Agreed, this naming is completely off. There needs to be a balance and frankly, I don't think historically that this was even an indigenous space of importance. It is where the Loyalists landed and it played a major role in the formation of the city, province, and Canada. It was a historically defining moment for how Saint John became what it is today. I don't understand why we keep erasing everything in history that isn't pre-colonization.

We need to tell the FULL story of the city and province's history. Renaming the Saint John River to its indigenous name? Sure, that makes sense to me given the important role it played for our first peoples and the many sacred sites along it. But there are other "first places" we need to acknowledge. Market Slip is where the loyalists arrived. Partridge Island is where many Irish settlers died. There are places we need to protect to celebrate Acadian history and likely important African heritage spaces we also need to celebrate and acknowledge, but don't. This is poorly thought through and I agree, nobody visiting or living in the city is going to be able to connect with nor appreciate the indigenous name and its role in the city's history as the location isn't relevant, it's simply a name that is disconnected to the location.

Unless I am wrong. Maybe this is a very important place to indigenous peoples...I've just never heard of it being one. If it isn't one, it is more disrespectful to randomly name a place that isn't special to the indigenous people of New Brunswick for the sake of doing so as opposed to one that has meaning. Otherwise its just white-guilt slapping a name on a space in the attempt to "show support" without really knowing anything about the indigenous people and their history, needs, or wants.
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  #1667  
Old Posted Oct 28, 2023, 12:30 PM
cdnguys cdnguys is offline
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I’m guessing with all the federal dollars the name change was voluntold. You could name the skating oval that, I could accept that. Next thing St Patrick’s green will be renamed when it’s finished.
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  #1668  
Old Posted Oct 28, 2023, 10:25 PM
adamuptownsj adamuptownsj is offline
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Two place names that directly referenced Black Loyalist inhabitation and Native American commerce have been abolished recently: Negro Point and Indiantown (the former a small black settlement and the latter, a river trading post). Neither was offensive until CBC or some graduate student ctrl+f'ed a list of Canadian place names for Badness.
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  #1669  
Old Posted Oct 29, 2023, 12:02 PM
cdnguys cdnguys is offline
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Originally Posted by adamuptownsj View Post
Two place names that directly referenced Black Loyalist inhabitation and Native American commerce have been abolished recently: Negro Point and Indiantown (the former a small black settlement and the latter, a river trading post). Neither was offensive until CBC or some graduate student ctrl+f'ed a list of Canadian place names for Badness.
The effort to rid the name Negro Point and Negro Head was an initiative of Ralph Thomas of PRUDE back in 2015. There were efforts preceding that also so nothing to do with CBC. The newly elected council in 2021 unanimously voted to remove the Indiantown designation and that was driven by a report submitted to council from the Truth and Reconciliation process, again nothing to do with CBC.
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  #1670  
Old Posted Oct 29, 2023, 6:12 PM
sailor734 sailor734 is offline
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Originally Posted by cdnguys View Post
The effort to rid the name Negro Point and Negro Head was an initiative of Ralph Thomas of PRUDE back in 2015. There were efforts preceding that also so nothing to do with CBC. The newly elected council in 2021 unanimously voted to remove the Indiantown designation and that was driven by a report submitted to council from the Truth and Reconciliation process, again nothing to do with CBC.
Other than CBC acting as a cheerleader for stuff like this.
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  #1671  
Old Posted Oct 29, 2023, 8:02 PM
cdnguys cdnguys is offline
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Originally Posted by sailor734 View Post
Other than CBC acting as a cheerleader for stuff like this.
Nah, I looked at all the articles and they simply reported on it, as did TJ, CTV and Global. I’m not seeing any cheerleading.
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  #1672  
Old Posted Oct 30, 2023, 1:35 PM
Pugsley Pugsley is offline
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Originally Posted by cdnguys View Post
The effort to rid the name Negro Point and Negro Head was an initiative of Ralph Thomas of PRUDE back in 2015. There were efforts preceding that also so nothing to do with CBC. The newly elected council in 2021 unanimously voted to remove the Indiantown designation and that was driven by a report submitted to council from the Truth and Reconciliation process, again nothing to do with CBC.
These are great examples. I agree that renaming these would make sense given their context and derogatory nature. However, I would have also added a plaque or a memorial somewhere at each of these locations telling the story of the NEW name and the rationale. I think we do too little to tell the history (good and bad) and stories of places.

Indiantown, which was named for a trading house built by James White in 1779 - one of many such posts which the early settlers and indigenous peoples connected and traded through - is a good example. If they had given the area a more appropriate indigenous name or perhaps named the area after an important indigenous figure who was part of the fur trade, it would have been an appropriate decision. Even if they did rename it, they should still tell the story of when it was Indiantown and why it was named so. It is OK to tell the history, otherwise people don't learn why it was wrong nor understand how society has evolved since then. Whitewashing it like it never existed doesn't help with truth and reconciliation, it just buries it. There are likely some very interesting stories we will never know about the settlers and indigenous peoples and how they interacted, or the impact of this trading post (good or bad), by simply giving it a new name and not sharing the history of the area.

This to me, would be an excellent example of taking an area that was poorly named back in the day in what we now consider to be insensitive and repairing it, while also educating others. As for Loyalist Plaza, I don't get the need to change it. Again, unless this was an important indigenous site that was actually called a "gathering place" by our first-nations peoples, then to me it sounds as being more disrespectful than actually reconciliation. Its basically giving an indigenous name to something that has no real meaning or special significance to the first-nations peoples when there are many other places of significance we should be putting money towards identifying and telling their stories about.

Further, I'll bet not a single member of the indigenous community nor the many loyalist historical societies were consulted on the re-naming of Loyalist Plaza.
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  #1673  
Old Posted Oct 30, 2023, 3:15 PM
lirette lirette is offline
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Originally Posted by MonctonianSentinel01 View Post
I agree 100%. They must be expecting this to go away on it's own? Or perhaps that because the issue is so widespread all over North America they think that it's the new normal? If we try to understand why they are doing nothing about it, we'll drive ourselves mad trying to figure it out. I pray that when we get a new Prime Minister that he virtue signals that this type of behavior is unacceptable and actually tries to do something about it. We need new leadership, I understand that it is more than this, but it would be a good place to start. The liberation of drugs isn't good.
I have to really respectfully disagree with the notion that the issue in our society is that people on welfare are spending it on drugs and that giving them less welfare will somehow fix the problem. We already have one of the lowest welfare payments in Canada.

We can absolutely agree that there is a direct correlation between drug addiction & mental health but how that has come to be we are very far apart.

The current welfare payments in New Brunswick would not even give someone enough to access housing in todays market, and there is no where to house them if it did. So the idea that we shouldn't even give someone welfare if they don't have an address, when the payment itself isn't enough to house themselves sounds like more of something that would make the issue exponentially worse.

The current housing market in the province is losing approximately affordable 50-100 units per month to renovictions and increased rent prices. We have barely invested anything into building new ones. The most recent investment of $100 million dollars was only to create 380 units over 4 years. The math on that does not sound good to me.

I don't know if you've ever spoken with people who work with homeless and vulnerable populations, but I'd really like to understand what people believe is the path for someone who currently has no house, is on a lengthy waitlist for rehab and mental addictions help and potentially unemployable due to those issues.

If our serious solutions to our current issues are mandatory jailing and rehab for drug addictions and removing support systems like welfare I am terrified for what this province is in 10 years. When you have 2 year wait lists for subsidized housing, and 6 month waitlists for addiction and mental health treatment. It doesn't matter how hard you yell at those people to try harder, or to take away the only money they have. They will never get better without a safe roof over their heads and support system in place.

There was a time when our provincial government had a large chunk of its budget dedicated to public housing (have to go back to the 80s I believe), but that's has shrunk to roughly 2% and the rest of the issue is passed down to non profit organizations who are stuck working with landlords who have zero incentive to work with them, and those non profits do not have the resources to build housing themselves.

If we had endless amounts of available housing, and addictions specialists twiddling their thumbs waiting for patients I would surely agree with you, because the base support that is needed would be there. But until we ever catch up on the root cause of this issue, it will only continue to get worse.
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  #1674  
Old Posted Oct 30, 2023, 4:04 PM
darkharbour darkharbour is offline
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Originally Posted by Pugsley View Post

Further, I'll bet not a single member of the indigenous community nor the many loyalist historical societies were consulted on the re-naming of Loyalist Plaza.
Not true, there is a committee that reviewed the submitted name suggestions and worked on this recommendation and that included many Indigenous voices.

"Staff then met with the Ethnohistorian working with Wolastoqey Nations New
Brunswick (WNNB). WNNB held consultations with Wolastoqey Elders, who
endorsed renaming the space in the Wolastoqey language to acknowledge its
role as a gathering space. The Wolastoqey Language is complex and has special
locative form/case that typically needed to be used for place names and the
elders clarified that the name on the short list associated with this meaning was
grammatically incorrect and should not be used.
Elders provided direction on the correct spelling and locative form for the place
name for its use in this context and recommended Ihtoli-maqahamok be used as
the place name."

Also: "The Committee acknowledges that this space is
important to the Loyalist heritage in the region, and this will be recognized
through interpretive panels in the area and the meaning of the new name. "
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  #1675  
Old Posted Oct 30, 2023, 4:27 PM
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MonctonRad MonctonRad is offline
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I will refer to it as Loyalist Plaza.

It may have been given a new name that few can pronounce and very few will acknowledge. Most will choose to call this place something else.

What is the name of the big river in western NB again?? As above, many disagree as to what this body of water is and should be called.
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  #1676  
Old Posted Oct 30, 2023, 5:38 PM
adamuptownsj adamuptownsj is offline
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Originally Posted by darkharbour View Post
Not true, there is a committee that reviewed the submitted name suggestions and worked on this recommendation and that included many Indigenous voices.

"Staff then met with the Ethnohistorian working with Wolastoqey Nations New
Brunswick (WNNB). WNNB held consultations with Wolastoqey Elders, who
endorsed renaming the space in the Wolastoqey language to acknowledge its
role as a gathering space. The Wolastoqey Language is complex and has special
locative form/case that typically needed to be used for place names and the
elders clarified that the name on the short list associated with this meaning was
grammatically incorrect and should not be used.
Elders provided direction on the correct spelling and locative form for the place
name for its use in this context and recommended Ihtoli-maqahamok be used as
the place name."

Also: "The Committee acknowledges that this space is
important to the Loyalist heritage in the region, and this will be recognized
through interpretive panels in the area and the meaning of the new name. "
Why do they get to rename our public spaces with no public input? I didn't vote for them. No one did. Interpretive panels, lol. Italy Mega Hammock is a comedically shit name with no connection to the location. It's corporate speak in a moribund language.
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  #1677  
Old Posted Oct 30, 2023, 7:24 PM
darkharbour darkharbour is offline
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Originally Posted by adamuptownsj View Post
Why do they get to rename our public spaces with no public input? I didn't vote for them. No one did. Interpretive panels, lol. Italy Mega Hammock is a comedically shit name with no connection to the location. It's corporate speak in a moribund language.
That's why it's going to Council, elected officials will still have decision-making authority in the end.

Also, it was on the city's public consultation website for input for quite some time, it was put out as a press release and news outlets were alerted to the public input opportunity, and others shared the link in this forum at the time it was announced.
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  #1678  
Old Posted Oct 30, 2023, 10:49 PM
DyAm00394 DyAm00394 is offline
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Lycée International Français des Provinces Atlantiques has posted a sneak peak rendering of the new frontage for their school opening in 2024 at Market Square.



Source: https://www.facebook.com/lifpa.donbosco/...W4eERUxgYndTyuhehKShwbirrZydLKqp3ztWZsAl

Last edited by DyAm00394; Oct 30, 2023 at 11:03 PM.
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  #1679  
Old Posted Oct 31, 2023, 12:20 AM
sailor734 sailor734 is offline
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Originally Posted by darkharbour View Post
That's why it's going to Council, elected officials will still have decision-making authority in the end.

Also, it was on the city's public consultation website for input for quite some time, it was put out as a press release and news outlets were alerted to the public input opportunity, and others shared the link in this forum at the time it was announced.
Regardless of the name is there anyone else that thinks the Loyalist Plaza reboot has been taking a ridiculously long time to complete? I mean 2 full years and it doesn't look even close to completion. Stage, patios, tidal steps and even just the paving stones all have a way to go. Is it the fact that government is involved? I mean, skyscrapers have been built in less time. (Look at the Empire State Building.....102 stories in 1 year and 45 days start to finish)
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  #1680  
Old Posted Oct 31, 2023, 12:23 AM
DyAm00394 DyAm00394 is offline
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Originally Posted by sailor734 View Post
Regardless of the name is there anyone else that thinks the Loyalist Plaza reboot has been taking a ridiculously long time to complete? I mean 2 full years and it doesn't look even close to completion. Stage, patios, tidal steps and even just the paving stones all have a way to go. Is it the fact that government is involved? I mean, skyscrapers have been built in less time.
Glass enclosures for patios arrive in November. They said they are still on schedule to be complete the end of this year.
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