Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by le calmar

Even the French spoken in Eastern Ontario can be like this to some extent. But yeah Quebec French is in the process of “internationalizing”. thurmas may have heard some people speak some heavily-accented French on Radio-Canada, but it’s definitely going in the other direction. I see it all the time with younger folks (and my Quebec French accent is very moderate compared to a lot of people).

Education has a lot to do with it as the more education tends to lead to much less slang and less harsh accents.

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Well, Palestinians have been in the land currently called Israel for an even longer time and look what's happening to them!

Of course, Quebec anglophones haven't resorted to violent insurrection and terrorism (yet)...........

And the Indigenous tribes and nations and Inuit have been in Quebec much much longer.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Loco101

Education has a lot to do with it as the more education tends to lead to much less slang and less harsh accents.

True, though I don't think francophones outside Québec are less likely to be educated than those in Québec. I'd say the levels are about the same.

But francophones outside Québec are way more likely to have had their higher education in English.

And higher education is where most of us polish up our language skills.

[Meuhud]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Well, Palestinians have been in the land currently called Israel for an even longer time and look what's happening to them!

Of course, Quebec anglophones haven't resorted to violent insurrection and terrorism (yet)...........

Skyscraperpage is supposed to be non-political. FYI Jews were in Israel before Islam was created!

[niwell]

Originally Posted by Kilgore Trout

Which is funny, because these days all the WASPs at McGill come from Ontario and the US, because there are barely any WASPs left in Quebec.

.

Upper-middle class to rich kids in Toronto that go to public school want to go to McGill. Private school kids go to Queens. Or at least that’s the trope that seems to be at least fairly accurate based on my time living here

[thebasketballgeek]

Originally Posted by Meuhud

Skyscraperpage is supposed to be non-political. FYI Jews were in Israel before Islam was created!

Who tf told you that? There’s literally a thread about National Politics and another one on Foreign Affaire. In fact I would argue this thread in certain cases can be highly political.

Anyways, I don’t mind the increased tuition for McGill and other anglophone students. If they want to have the lower tuition so bad they can live in Quebec for 12 consecutive months beforehand (and maybe pick up some French while they’re at it ). That’s one of the reasons I want to be a Québec resident tbh. In fact there’s an exemption for Québec residents to get the domestic tuition fees for French universities as well, so I can pursue my master’s degree in France which is €243 per year at the master level once I become a resident here.

For the rest of the conversation regarding the new language laws. I was lucky because my job is completely exempt from the French requirements, but I’m still trying to make a concerted effort to learn the language and as a person who has only lived here for a month with elementary level writing and practically no speaking ability, my French has improved substantially. People are still very friendly and try to help by correcting my French or switching to English if it’s too difficult and they’re capable of doing so which I appreciate. Although even if they don’t speak any English at the end of the day most of communication is done through body language. If it’s still too hard to understand then guess what it’s 2023 and I can pull my phone out and use a translation app. I’m nowhere near fluent but it’s becoming easier for my untrained year to understand the different dialects and hold basic conversations because of significantly improved vocabulary. There really is no better way of learning then immersion.

I mean if you go to Quebec and don’t try to learn French you’re really missing out. When in Rome…

[Acajack]

CBC Podcast went back on its decision. Will get it dubbed in Montréal.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Acajack

CBC Podcast went back on its decision. Will get it dubbed in Montréal.

Would have been ironic had they shifted the work to Toronto.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Acajack

True, though I don't think francophones outside Québec are less likely to be educated than those in Québec. I'd say the levels are about the same.

But francophones outside Québec are way more likely to have had their higher education in English.

And higher education is where most of us polish up our language skills.

This is true of writing skills but not spoken language. Spoken accent largely comes from parents though the broader community has an influence. I guess you could say a dialect is really a dialect when educated people still use it with their children and speak "standard" language at work and in other official capacities. Maybe my view is skewed having only worked in French in Montreal and Ottawa but many many francophones seem to code switch. Curious if lawyer partner meeting in Chicoutimi would be the same.

I think the only place this happens currently in English Canada is Newfoundland and maybe parts of Cape Breton. There are many accents approaching dialects where this is the case in the US still.

[P'tit Renard]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Would have been ironic had they shifted the work to Toronto.

There are enough native Francophones living here to do it, working right at the CBC Toronto building or within a 5km radius...but whether CBC Podcasts realize they exist is another question. At least the City of Toronto thinks they're invisible, and makes it next to impossible to obtain any services in French.

[P'tit Renard]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I don't think it's that common for average Québécois to be able to pass for French in France unless they deliberately put on a French accent. Which admittedly some of us can do.

Yes. Especially for the younger Quebecois who grew up on the island or Quebec City, it's pretty easy.

Anyone who grew up on the island these days pretty much work and play with French nationals who've rooted themselves around Plateau, and that exposure along with French media makes it easy for young Quebecois to turn on the French accent when they're travelling in France.

Kinda like how Torontonians can turn on the surfer boy valley girl accent without even thinking while down in Southern California.

[P'tit Renard]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

A buddy of mine, originally from Quebec City, lived in Paris for five years and it used to drive him crazy when French people expressed surprise/were impressed that he spoke French "well". I witnessed it a couple of times and it always cracked me up.

Yea. Even more jarring for them is when my Quebecois friends switched to rapid-fire English. We got funny looks from local Parisiens when they witnessed the switch.. maybe their expectations is that native Francophones shouldn't be able to speak English so fluently.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

This is true of writing skills but not spoken language. Spoken accent largely comes from parents though the broader community has an influence. I guess you could say a dialect is really a dialect when educated people still use it with their children and speak "standard" language at work and in other official capacities. Maybe my view is skewed having only worked in French in Montreal and Ottawa but many many francophones seem to code switch. Curious if lawyer partner meeting in Chicoutimi would be the same.

I think the only place this happens currently in English Canada is Newfoundland and maybe parts of Cape Breton. There are many accents approaching dialects where this is the case in the US still.

Not sure I am reading you right but plenty of francophones outside Québec also have challenges speaking professional-level French. Many prefer to speak English in an office setting. Though you are right that writing is often the very weakest link.

And it's not just a question of accent. It's a question of finding all the right words to express yourself.

Northern New Brunswickers who are a bit of an exception are generally fine in French at work even if they have very noticeable accents.

[Acajack]

The difference in the level of spoken French is very apparent if you listen to Ottawa-Gatineau francophone media, where you can compare for example francophone municipal politicians from both sides of the river.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Not sure I am reading you right but plenty of francophones outside Québec also have challenges speaking professional-level French. Many prefer to speak English in an office setting. Though you are right that writing is often the very weakest link.

And it's not just a question of accent. It's a question of finding all the right words to express yourself.

Northern New Brunswickers who are a bit of an exception are generally fine in French at work even if they have very noticeable accents.

I'm not talking about switching to English but "Standard French". My point being Quebec is filled with very strong dialects that is different from standard Quebec French. This isn't something to look down on but an important difference that Quebecers assume is true more universally than it is. Barely educated English Canadians now speak a very homogenized standard English that makes determining say HS vs Grad school not clear in a supermarket interaction. This isn't a universal feature of English as in much of the US and UK that is not the case.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

I'm not talking about switching to English but "Standard French". My point being Quebec is filled with very strong dialects that is different from standard Quebec French. This isn't something to look down on but an important difference that Quebecers assume is true more universally than it is. Barely educated English Canadians now speak a very homogenized standard English that makes determining say HS vs Grad school not clear in a supermarket interaction. This isn't a universal feature of English as in much of the US and UK that is not the case.

This is a misread of Quebec French which doesn't really have regional dialects as much as it has accents. And even the latter are fading.

There isn't much of anything in terms of vocabulary or expressions that the boys at the bar or the arena in La Sarre could throw at you that a guy in Rimouski wouldn't understand.

When you get outside Québec it changes a bit with original Acadian dialect from antiquated French in the Maritimes or insidiously English-infused French in Ontario and the West.

[someone123]

Code switching or "registres de langue" often don't get their due in these conversations. It can be comparatively easy for native speakers of a language to adjust their dialect or vocabulary, and it is normal for people to express themselves in different registers in different contexts (most English speakers know some overly formal-sounding English they might see in a memo that they wouldn't use to talk to their friends). The stereotypical extreme example that some rustic French Canadian is teleported to Paris and is understood no better than a non-native French speaker is not very realistic.

The code switching is relevant for fairly normal Atlantic accents in the rest of Canada too. You pick up on what to avoid saying if you don't want to draw attention to it. If you do it long enough, eventually your accent fades.

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by Acajack

CBC Podcast went back on its decision. Will get it dubbed in Montréal.

give those that made the change a free ticket to the REM. this must be the most no-brainer of a decision in CBC history.

[MolsonExport]

Joual is a product of francophone working-class Montreal. The anglicisms probably were partly introduced by the (English-speaking) Irish working class, often living in close proximity (e.g., Pointe St. Charles, Griffintown, Verdun, St. Henri, etc.). Not too different from anglos nowadays, who invariably use french loanwords like "Depanneur" (or more commonly, "the "Dep", instead of "corner store"), "autoroute" (instead of highway), and "terrasse" (French pronunciation, instead of the english "Terrace"). It is not that uncommon for Anglos to say things like "Close the light" (literal translation of the french way of saying "turn off the light")

[thewave46]

Blue-collar speak be blue-collar regardless of the language.

Societies and how they speak aren't that different around the world, whether it be Cockney/RP, Southern American/General American, or joual/Standard French.

The intelligentsia will always gravitate to the more refined or proper version of the language. So I'd expect the same would apply on in Quebec's situation, given its history of being more blue-collar until recent decades and effectively cut off from the parent nation.

The metropole is going to be the definitive version, so Montreal is going to sound closer to Paris, just by the people major metros attract and their pursuits.

Aside from some twangy Canadian-hoser leftovers, the majority of the English speakers in this country just had the good luck for their metropole to shift from London to Washington over the last few decades, so they don't sound like complete rubes. Peter Mansbridge's accent doesn't raise an eyebrow in Washington, I'd imagine.

I'd be curious how an alternate-universe London that's still the unchallenged centre of the world would react to Canadian English versus 'The King's'. Doubtlessly pejoratively, I imagine.