DENVER | Main Development Thread #7

[laniroj]

Originally Posted by DenverInfill

RTOR isn't about vehicle crashes, it's about drivers blocking the crosswalks with their cars and/or generally being oblivious to pedestrians about to cross in front of them because the are so intently staring to their left in anticipation of that gap in cross traffic where they can zip out and save 8 seconds before the light would have turned green for them anyway...

I don't disagree with you, Ken, but this is one of those "we're privileged to be able to worry about things like this" issues. I often speak to relative conditions in the rest of the world and outside of a few western European countries and Singapore, it's chaos and it's part of the excitement of being in a City. Unless there is a clear warrant correlating RTOR to pedestrian or cyclist deaths, I think this is more of us having too much time on our hands.

The real problem is 11' highway width travel lanes on roads throughout Congress Park and every other Denver neighborhood allowing vehicles to safely (in their perception) travel at 50+ MPH speeds - those are the places where vehicle pedestrian deaths are occurring and it'd be pretty easy to take those lanes down to 9' with one lane dedicated to multi-modal transit and significant slow vehicle movements. We could also add safe protected crossings at reasonable intervals for our arterial streets - not with Hawks or traffic signals but with yellow flashers (let's be reasonable, the hawks and traffic lights are far too expensive to implement en masse).

^This would all involve DOTI thinking about more than the largest 18 wheeler and hook n' ladder fire truck movements, so it's all pie in the sky anyways...

[bunt_q]

Originally Posted by laniroj

The real problem is 11' highway width travel lanes on roads throughout Congress Park and every other Denver neighborhood allowing vehicles to safely (in their perception) travel at 50+ MPH speeds - those are the places where vehicle pedestrian deaths are occurring and it'd be pretty easy to take those lanes down to 9' with one lane dedicated to multi-modal transit and significant slow vehicle movements. We could also add safe protected crossings at reasonable intervals for our arterial streets - not with Hawks or traffic signals but with yellow flashers (let's be reasonable, the hawks and traffic lights are far too expensive to implement en masse).

^This would all involve DOTI thinking about more than the largest 18 wheeler and hook n' ladder fire truck movements, so it's all pie in the sky anyways...

Actually, there are plenty of maps available as to where these deaths are occuring. And I do not see a single auto-pedestrian accident in Congress Park. Not one. (See https://www.westword.com/news/denver-traffic-deaths-2022-map-update-13801191, https://www.denvergov.org/Government/Citywide-Programs-and-Initiatives/Vision-Zero, etc. etc.)

I know that good planning mantra is to blame the egos of the fire chiefs and their big dick fire trucks. But as for the ongoing saga on 7th Avenue - saw a DOTI truck get stuck the other day (the irony). And the daily struggle of the school bus is the one really getting on people's nerves. I know that most childless urbanists do not think much about school buses, but they serve a pretty important function, if you ask me. (I am just waiting for some planner-type to advocate for moving the school bus stops on to the traffic sewers of 6th and 8th. Bucolic bikeways > children.) The fire departments stand out because they actually have the power to push back, which makes them the face of the fight. But they are hardly alone.

This article today, actually (Denver Fire places a moratorium on new traffic circles): https://denvergazette.com/premium/denver...f0a05b4-5749-11ee-8a5f-fb68a08f187b.html

Might be behind a paywall.

[mhays]

Some countries solve this with smaller trucks.

[bunt_q]

Originally Posted by mhays

Some countries solve this with smaller trucks.

Yes well, if we would like to vote a tax hike and bonding authorization so we can budget a fleet replacement - for DOTI maintenance trucks, snow plows, trash trucks, fire trucks, and the school district's bus fleet - we can certainly have that discussion. But until we do, how about we keep the streets passable? This one doesn't seem like a difficult chicken and egg to me. Bucolic bikeways are not essential.

[mhays]

True, the time to do that would've been BEFORE the streets were re-engineered for ever-larger trucks.

That said, fleet replacements tend to happen pretty often. Start now and most fleets will be turned over before you know it.

[wong21fr]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

Yes well, if we would like to vote a tax hike and bonding authorization so we can budget a fleet replacement - for DOTI maintenance trucks, snow plows, trash trucks, fire trucks, and the school district's bus fleet - we can certainly have that discussion. But until we do, how about we keep the streets passable? This one doesn't seem like a difficult chicken and egg to me. Bucolic bikeways are not essential.

Wait, you guys get school buses coming through the neighborhood and picking up little clusters of kids at stops? Talk about bucolic. In other, wealthy, parts of the city DPS told parents to get f**cked and walk/bike/drive their kids to school.

Wouldn't it make more sense just to have city provided micro-transit to get the nannies and au pairs around the neighborhood? Hell, how many kids are we talking about? 12?


Elbowing aside, who in DOTI screwed up the lane widths and transitions so that a school bus can't get through? If a bus can navigate Capitol Hill elsewhere than 7th Ave, which IIRC is one of the larger streets, then it shouldn't be that hard to stripe and bollard to permit a bus to pass.

[bunt_q]

I don’t have a photo hosting service anymore or I’d show you pictures. It’s because the new traffic circles are almost the full width of 7th Avenue. If they were 4 feet, maybe even 2 feet, narrower, I’d wager they would have the same effect on traffic, deterrence and slowing, without being nearly impossible to navigate. But alas, we know DOTI doesn’t hire anybody who can do math.

[mr1138]

Originally Posted by mhays

True, the time to do that would've been BEFORE the streets were re-engineered for ever-larger trucks.

That said, fleet replacements tend to happen pretty often. Start now and most fleets will be turned over before you know it.

Exactly - I bet that entire fleet has been replaced just since the first time I started to hear people having this exact discussion.

[TakeFive]

Nice balance of Form and Function; great choice of materials and nice texture.

This may be the best groundbreaking news this year.

--------------------------

Originally Posted by DenverInfill

RTOR isn't about vehicle crashes, it's about drivers blocking the crosswalks with their cars and/or generally being oblivious to pedestrians about to cross in front of them because the are so intently staring to their left in anticipation of that gap in cross traffic where they can zip out and save 8 seconds before the light would have turned green for them anyway.

Knowing me, I'd be irritated as well if I had to walk in your shoes.

And now that the temps are moderating I'm planning on getting out to walk more in my own shoes.

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

Might be behind a paywall.

The sense I get is if you're an infrequent user of the Gazette there's no paywall. They do have some very good writers.

From what I've read it seems that (like along 7th Ave.) DOTI has created clusters of clutter. This can end up being a distraction and confusing.

I can't recall Scottsdale using any bollards anywhere and they have a ton of traffic calming devices. One advantage they have is that much of the city is built on a 'suburban' model (as apposed to a city grid) which has limited access to begin with but the city loves to put in traffic circles on collector streets. On one of their older streets they intermittently use bike separation devices on each side. They have dropped the speed limit to 30 mph and post flashing signs of the speed limit as well as posting the speed you're traveling. Scottsdale uses flashing lights in various places typically to measure your speed as an encouragement. Note: Scottsdale is a multiyear gold winner for being bike friendly.

Phoenix, with the exception of one or two protected bike lanes near downtown does not use any bollards either. In the neighborhoods they often use traffic circles but they're not that big; it's just more of a visual reminder to driver carefully. Phoenix however liberally uses speed humps notedly along streets in areas where children live

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

Yes well, if we would like to vote a tax hike and bonding authorization so we can budget a fleet replacement - for DOTI maintenance trucks, snow plows, trash trucks, fire trucks, and the school district's bus fleet - we can certainly have that discussion. But until we do, how about we keep the streets passable? This one doesn't seem like a difficult chicken and egg to me. Bucolic bikeways are not essential.

https://denverite.com/2023/09/19/denver-...ructure-budget-west-denver-microtransit/

DOTI’s 2024 budget also includes a “significant investment” in replacing city vehicles.

According to Phipps, around 45% of DOTI’s vehicles have passed their useful lifespan, a situation which worsened during the pandemic. Phipps also said that in 2023, DOTI had 88% of its equipment available, while the industry standard is 95%.

Originally Posted by mhays

True, the time to do that would've been BEFORE the streets were re-engineered for ever-larger trucks.

That said, fleet replacements tend to happen pretty often. Start now and most fleets will be turned over before you know it.

That makes no economic sense on top of the need for normal equipment replacement.

Wider Streets are a huge advantage. Most of the streets down here are probably closer to 7th Ave; you paint a bike lane on each side and you're done - other than creating four-way stops or traffic lights where needed. Wider streets make it easy for bike riders as they're not crowded by traffic.

To create a clustermess that's hard for emergency vehicles to navigate is where the insanity is.

It's also important to recognize, at least in Denver, that the lavish budgets of recent years has about an 18 month lifespan left before all that COVID money runs out and iija $'s have been used in Denver to fulfill the $1 billion promises that voters approved which was before COVID INFLATION.

Buckle up

With the coming period of Stagflation budgeting will face a harsh reality.

[Sam Hill]

Originally Posted by DenverInfill

RTOR isn't about vehicle crashes, it's about drivers blocking the crosswalks with their cars and/or generally being oblivious to pedestrians about to cross in front of them because the are so intently staring to their left in anticipation of that gap in cross traffic where they can zip out and save 8 seconds before the light would have turned green for them anyway.

The same exact thing happens at every two-way stop sign, or any time a vehicle exits an alley. That’s just normal. When a driver reaches an intersection, they usually have no way of knowing whether it’s safe to enter the cross street without encroaching onto the crosswalk and potentially inconveniencing any pedestrians that may arrive. Unfortunately, pedestrians will always have to deal with these annoying situations.

On a seemingly daily basis I also encounter the rogue driver that just plows through the intersection, only looking for cross traffic, completely oblivious of pedestrians. I always presume they’re visiting suburbanites who aren’t at all used to sharing the streets with pedestrians, and in such cases I make sure to use body language and a dirty look to remind them they’re not in Kansas anymore and they need to be aware of us pedestrians. (Pedestrians: Beware of “lifted” pickup trucks with big stupid tires!) Bad drivers are bad drivers and not much can be done about it.

A RTOR ban might make sense at downtown intersections with heavy foot traffic, but a citywide ban that includes parts of the city (the majority) where foot traffic is sparse or virtually nonexistent would be superfluous and disruptive.

I’m going to coin a new term: “extremist urbanism.”

[Sam Hill]

I have a question for all of you urban folk: Do you ever jaywalk? Yes, of course you do; we all do. I guess we’re all a bunch of lawbreakers!

(And to any of you who get up on your high horse and pontificate, “no, in fact I don’t, and it’s illegal, and unsafe, and blah blah blah,” I’m not talking about your suburban neighborhood; I’m talking about urban neighborhoods.)

Shouldn’t cyclists stop at stop signs and red lights? Hmmmmm

[midwestcowboy]

Originally Posted by Sam Hill

Shouldn’t cyclists stop at stop signs and red lights? Hmmmmm

No: https://www.coloradoan.com/story/news/20...aho-stop-nearly-law-bicycles/7244632001/

"The Colorado safety stop bill allows those age 15 and older who are riding a bicycle, electrical assisted bicycle or electric scooter to slow to a speed of 10 mph or less at an intersection with a traffic sign and proceed without stopping only when safe to do so."

[Sam Hill]

Originally Posted by midwestcowboy

No: https://www.coloradoan.com/story/news/20...aho-stop-nearly-law-bicycles/7244632001/

"The Colorado safety stop bill allows those age 15 and older who are riding a bicycle, electrical assisted bicycle or electric scooter to slow to a speed of 10 mph or less at an intersection with a traffic sign and proceed without stopping only when safe to do so."

Oh. Well that sucks. Vehicle after vehicle has to precariously pass the bike, only to get stopped at a red light, where the bike zips past them and gets back out in front, so now all the vehicles have to precariously pass all over again.

This happens to me all the time, driving home from work, going down Washington St through Cap Hill. I don’t even bother to pass, because it’s just too tight. The cars behind can honk at me all they want.

Dear cyclists: I know it’s legal and all, but please don’t ride on one-way single-lane streets. It’s not worth the risk.

But anyway, that’s a different topic for a different day…

Okay, so forget the bike part. All my other mild trolling and devil’s advocacy still stands. Hmph! (crosses arms)

[DenverInfill]

Originally Posted by Sam Hill

I have a question for all of you urban folk: Do you ever jaywalk? Yes, of course you do; we all do. I guess we’re all a bunch of lawbreakers!

(And to any of you who get up on your high horse and pontificate, “no, in fact I don’t, and it’s illegal, and unsafe, and blah blah blah,” I’m not talking about your suburban neighborhood; I’m talking about urban neighborhoods.)

Shouldn’t cyclists stop at stop signs and red lights? Hmmmmm

Sure, pedestrians jaywalk, and that's OK.

https://denverite.com/2023/01/30/denver-jaywalking-decriminalized/

Pedestrians are at the top of the priority pyramid for use of the public ROW in Denver, followed by bikes/scooters. Motorists are at the bottom, so if anyone is to be inconvenienced, it is motorists. However, due to car-brain, most motorists think it is the other way around and demand to be catered to and/or express outrage when they are not given priority on any given street segment.

Originally Posted by Sam Hill

Dear cyclists: I know it’s legal and all, but please don’t ride on one-way single-lane streets. It’s not worth the risk.

Dear motorists: I know it's legal and all, but please don't drive on one-way single-lane streets. You're inconveniencing bicyclists.

[Sam Hill]

Originally Posted by DenverInfill

Dear motorists: I know it's legal and all, but please don't drive on one-way single-lane streets. You're inconveniencing bicyclists.

No man. I’m dead serious. Bikes need to stay off those single-lane one-way’s. It’s fucking dangerous.

That comment you quoted was entirely about safety and had nothing whatsoever to do with inconveniencing drivers. Read it again.

Also, your car-hate-brain seems to forget there are 1000 cars for every bike (source: Sam Hill’s Made Up Statistics, by Sam Hill) so if a lone bike were to clog up an entire street on a regular basis, it actually would be an issue. (Another thing to consider is that emergency vehicles are cars too.)

Bikes need more of their own right of way, all over town. I just got back from a trip to Amsterdam and Rotterdam a few days ago. Bike infrastructure there is amazing as I’m sure you know. Cars and bikes basically never share same spaces, and that’s the way it should be.

[bunt_q]

I don't think the safety stop law allows bicycles to pass stopped traffic at an intersection (where there is not a separate bike facility provided), go through the intersection, and then have to be passed again. That's not the point. (And I agree, it is wildly annoying and very common.) Where bicycles are operating in mixed traffic, they are still supposed to act *as traffic* - stop and wait - at a red light with stopped vehicles. At least that is my read of it.

Perfectly legal trick - when stopping in a line of traffic on a narrow one way, stop as far to the right as you can so they can't squeeze through.

[Sam Hill]

Ah, I see.

And that is a good trick.

[i4isoar]

I think outright banning RTOR at a city-level is a misguided policy. Not only is it unrealistic to expect that everyone will follow it (especially those who just come to Denver for the day from other cities around the state), but I think that there are far more serious and pressing issues out there that our legislators should be expending their valuable time and political capital towards.

Moreover, banning RTOR in low-density areas, or rural areas, makes no sense since there’s very little pedestrian traffic in these places anyway.

I also fail to see how RTOR is that much of a significant threat to pedestrians, more so than, say, delivery trucks coming out of alleyways, or e-scooters zipping down the sidewalk. I can only speak from anecdotal evidence here, but I’m pretty sure I’ve nearly been hit by an e-scooter more times than by a car right-turning on red.

Far more practical, I think, is to simply put up “No RTOR” signs on every intersection in downtown, and maybe a handful of other high-density areas (RiNo or Cherry Creek, perhaps). Being tactical and tactful about where to apply a RTOR ban sounds like a much better and more pragmatic policy than an inflexible, useless, and completely unenforceable city-wide blanket ban.

Finally, I am very much against imposing any ban on RTOR without appropriate signage. Whether people like it or not, RTOR is something that is commonplace across the country, and banning it without giving people notice is just pure criminal entrapment. There’s a world of difference between a driver who willfully runs a red light, and one who turns right at on a red light because there was no RTOR sign.