The Great Canadian Transit Thread

[Doady]

OC Transpo got 500,000 boardings per weekday before the pandemic. The LRT will probably get around 200,000 boardings per weekday when the system fully recovers.

Grand River Transit's 7 Mainline and 200 iExpress routes got 30,000 boardings combined in 2011, one-third of the system's ridership in this one corridor, so the buses were being pushed to the limit.

Buses obviously could not handle Ottawa's ridership, but grade-separated light rail with overhead wires is obviously dumb. But wait until you see the Eglinton-Crosstown Line. Overhead wires, light rail vehicles, not just grade-separated but also underground for 10km.

[Innsertnamehere]

Honestly given ottawas demographics I’m not sure it’ll ever fully recover. The city is full of federal government office workers who are huge laggards as a group in terms of return to office, and the system is very much set up as a commuter system, not for discretionary trips.

[Kilgore Trout]

Line 2 will help, but yeah, the way the system was conceived is flawed enough that it's a serious handicap.

I used to feel like Ottawa was a relaxed, no-pressure kind of place to visit, but since the pandemic I get kind of angry about all the potential being wasted. It has all the ingredients needed to become a pretty interesting city but it's being squandered.

[someone123]

Ottawa seems positioned to have good transit, and what has happened is a little odd. It's the capital, so you'd expect it to have nicer transit than normal. It is in Ontario which has a lot of resources and experience building transit. When the Edmonton and Calgary LRT systems were built they were small cities, Alberta was still a fairly small province, and there weren't a lot of LRT systems.

[niwell]

Ottawa seemed to be on the right path prior to the pandemic. Lots of interesting new places opening and seemed to be doing some good things in terms of transit/cycling/pedestrian infrastructure. It's definitely hit a bit of a funk since - lately when we visit I often find myself staying more with family (in-laws) than venturing out on my own. Something I could definitely still do if I was so inclined.

Hard to put my finger on but the transit debacle and things like the state of repair Elgin is in despite the very recent rebuild are emblematic of this. Which isn't to say there aren't places worth going to in Ottawa (there are) but the vibe isn't great.

[Doady]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Ottawa is still wallowing in failure, when cities half our size are getting this close to our numbers. Mississauga and Brampton without rail yet, and Kitchener-Waterloo with only a traditional tramway. It leaves me so worried when there is so much discussion of further service cuts and ridership remaining in the 60s% level.

Transit in Ottawa mostly serves office workers while transit in Mississauga and Brampton mostly serve industrial workers, and there's no work from home for industrial workers. Ottawa is at 60% of pre-pandemic ridership, Brampton and Mississauga are at 110%. Ottawa at 60% is very similar to the TTC and GO.

Sorry I didn't mean to make people worried about transit in Ottawa. I posted the Brampton and Mississauga numbers because of the similarity to Waterloo. Three up-and-coming systems that serve decentralized cities. Ottawa is a different situation. Ottawa's numbers should be compared to GO and TTC only.

[thebasketballgeek]

Originally Posted by Doady

Transit in Ottawa mostly serves office workers while transit in Mississauga and Brampton mostly serve industrial workers, and there's no work from home for industrial workers. Ottawa is at 60% of pre-pandemic ridership, Brampton and Mississauga are at 110%. Ottawa at 60% is very similar to the TTC and GO.

Sorry I didn't mean to make people worried about transit in Ottawa. I posted the Brampton and Mississauga numbers because of the similarity to Waterloo. Three up-and-coming systems that serve decentralized cities. Ottawa is a different situation. Ottawa's numbers should be compared to GO and TTC only.

And once that Hurontario LRT is built, Brampton and Sauga’s will dwarf Ottawa’s ridership. It’s too bad the LRT is stopping at Steeles when it should be going to Bovaird at the bare minimum with an argument of simply going all the way up to Sandalwood and terminating at Sandalwood Place. The density is there and being so close to the Etobicoke Trail (arguably one of the best Active Transportation corridor in the Country) you can get some serious shifts in modal split.

Yet it doesn’t even go all the way to the Go Station at Queen essentially making it useless for Brampton. Atleast Sauga will make good use of it.

[J.OT13]

Stage 2 should give Ottawa's ridership a good boost. Reopening Line 2 will probably bring 10k-15k overnight. It was 20k prep-pandemic, laregely driven by Carleton U. Dont know what the R2 bus replacement ridership is, but I doubts it's much more than a couple thousand considering how terrible and low capacity the service is.

Infill stations at Gladstone and Walkley serves dense and densifying areas. Dow's Lake has had the most TOD in the region, and it continues. The new Civic Hospital opening in 2028 should attract a lot of ridership as well.

I don't see the south extension bringing much new ridership as the three station serve rural areas, with no TOD proposed, just retail parking.

East is very commuter oriented, PnRs and low density suburbs, so it likely won't attract much more ridership.

The west is largely urban areas with a few key infill stations and significant TOD. It also serves a few low income neighbourhoods. I'm predicting tens of thousands more riders over the first couple years.

LeBreton is a wild card in the mix. If it builds up quickly and the arena is built, hundreds of thousands more riders per year.

[Doady]

Originally Posted by thebasketballgeek

And once that Hurontario LRT is built, Brampton and Sauga’s will dwarf Ottawa’s ridership. It’s too bad the LRT is stopping at Steeles when it should be going to Bovaird at the bare minimum with an argument of simply going all the way up to Sandalwood and terminating at Sandalwood Place. The density is there and being so close to the Etobicoke Trail (arguably one of the best Active Transportation corridor in the Country) you can get some serious shifts in modal split.

Yet it doesn’t even go all the way to the Go Station at Queen essentially making it useless for Brampton. Atleast Sauga will make good use of it.

Yeah, the whole point was light rail allows for a longer route to unite the entire Hurontario-Main corridor, connecting all three GO Train stations and connecting two designated Urban Growth Centres in the Greenbelt plan (Mississauga City Centre and Downtown Brampton). Now the LRT is truncated, and the current 502 Zum Main bus will no longer provide a direct connection between Mississauga City Centre and Downtown Brampton. A Hurontario BRT would have been better for that, even if Brampton continues to oppose transit lanes on Main.

LRT also offered the opportunity for a connection to the Mississauga Transitway at Hurontario/Rathburn and bypass the bus terminal at Square One and alleviate the overcrowding of the terminal. But of course they eventually decided to divert the LRT off of Hurontario to Square One. So no new connection to the Mississauga Transitway, and eventually no more 103 Hurontario Express bus to bypass Square One.

The LRT will not be much if any faster than the 103/502 express buses were before the construction, so I think Brampton and Mississauga will not surpass Ottawa in transit ridership anytime soon, especially if the Indian government decides to assassinate more Sikhs in Canada.

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by Kilgore Trout

I took my first ride on the O-Train this weekend and it was embarrassing (for Ottawa). The underground stations downtown look like they're falling apart and it has only been four years since they opened. The surface stations were pretty nice but it doesn't make up for the absurdity of having an entirely grade-separated metro system serviced by... trams.

I wonder if the underground stations look worse for wear because it's a low floor system, where the platform basically sits at track level. As a rider, you're closer to the dirt and grime that accumulates from brake dust, water seepage, vermin, tossed garbage etc., than you would be in a conventional high floor metro where you're raised a meter above all the filth.

Subways are dirty places. Nowadays, platform screen doors should be used wherever possible.

[Harrison]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

I wonder if the underground stations look worse for wear because it's a low floor system, where the platform basically sits at track level. As a rider, you're closer to the dirt and grime that accumulates from brake dust, water seepage, vermin, tossed garbage etc., than you would be in a conventional high floor metro where you're raised a meter above all the filth.

Subways are dirty places. Nowadays, platform screen doors should be used wherever possible.

I don't know, Edmonton's underground LRT stations are not that dirty and dingy - quite clean actually minus the odd pee smell if someone urinated in a stairwell (which happens from time to time). The disrepair in Ottawa is likely just due to a lack of care and maintenance from OC Transpo, but also shoddy construction (i.e. the 'smell' in Rideau Station).

[ssiguy]

Ottawa couldn't have screwed up it's O-Train system more if it tried. The entire mess has left a justifiable bad taste in the people's collective mouths and it may take years to undo the damage. Using the excuse of having all the civil servants working from home is a cop-out. Calgary has a huge number of office workers in it's core and, proportionately, more than any other city in the country. It's LRT is downtown focused due to it's huge downtown centred workforce but the C-Train as of June this year is already higher than pre-pandemic and bus ridership is at 87%.

More mid-sized cities like KW & London that are not as big corporate centres but rather their largest employers are the 2 sectors that are amongst the fastest growing.........healthcare and post-secondary. Both KW & London have very large post-secondary populations and healthcare sectors and London in particular in the latter category. These are sectors where working from home is not an option. I couldn't find info on Victoria as it's lumped together with BC Transit overall so anyone with stats would be appreciated.

One thing that bods well for Canada's transit future is that many systems are now running above pre-pandemic levels on weekends. This is also been the case in most US systems. This may represent a positive fundamental shift in how Canadians view transit as not just a cheaper way to get to work but also a realization that taking transit is a viable option for all their transportation needs.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

I wonder if the underground stations look worse for wear because it's a low floor system, where the platform basically sits at track level. As a rider, you're closer to the dirt and grime that accumulates from brake dust, water seepage, vermin, tossed garbage etc., than you would be in a conventional high floor metro where you're raised a meter above all the filth.

Subways are dirty places. Nowadays, platform screen doors should be used wherever possible.

Originally Posted by Harrison

I don't know, Edmonton's underground LRT stations are not that dirty and dingy - quite clean actually minus the odd pee smell if someone urinated in a stairwell (which happens from time to time). The disrepair in Ottawa is likely just due to a lack of care and maintenance from OC Transpo, but also shoddy construction (i.e. the 'smell' in Rideau Station).

It's really about maintenance. The builder also has the maintenance contract for 30 years. The idea was that if they had to maintain for 30 years, they would be motivated to build it well in the first place. That didn't work out.

Much of the damage is from water seeping into the tunnel, peeling the paint off the concrete (which can't breath, cause paint). All sorts of crap accumulating between window panes along the stairs, broken glass, pealing wood accents... It really was poorly designed for durability or for the climate, and the maintainer is just not doing its job. dosen't seem OC is really focusing on maintenance since the trains are a bigger issue (functionality over esthetics, I guess). Seems everyone has given up on the smell at Parliament and Rideau stations as well.

We've had issues with the washrooms and water fountains as well.

Originally Posted by ssiguy

Ottawa couldn't have screwed up it's O-Train system more if it tried. The entire mess has left a justifiable bad taste in the people's collective mouths and it may take years to undo the damage.

They could have screwed it up more. Single elevators, surface running, intersections, lack of fare machines. Those are pitfalls that were avoided.

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by Harrison

I don't know, Edmonton's underground LRT stations are not that dirty and dingy - quite clean actually minus the odd pee smell if someone urinated in a stairwell (which happens from time to time). The disrepair in Ottawa is likely just due to a lack of care and maintenance from OC Transpo, but also shoddy construction (i.e. the 'smell' in Rideau Station).

Edmonton's underground section (like most older LRT systems) has high platforms like a traditional heavy rail metro. So if the issue is with Ottawa being low floor, Edmonton wouldn't have much bearing. Makes me wonder about the underground TTC streetcar stop on the Harbourfront line near Bay and Queens Quay though. Does it have issues due to being low floor? I've only been in it once and the only thing I remember was that it's very small and basic looking.

[Innsertnamehere]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

Edmonton's underground section (like most older LRT systems) has high platforms like a traditional heavy rail metro. So if the issue is with Ottawa being low floor, Edmonton wouldn't have much bearing. Makes me wonder about the underground TTC streetcar stop on the Harbourfront line near Bay and Queens Quay though. Does it have issues due to being low floor? I've only been in it once and the only thing I remember was that it's very small and basic looking.

There is also the St. Clair underground Streetcar loop at St. Clair W station and the Spadina loop at Spadina station. None are particularly messy, though perhaps a bit more than a typical TTC subway station.

I suspect it's mostly to do with sub-par maintenance standards from the P3.

[Kilgore Trout]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

I wonder if the underground stations look worse for wear because it's a low floor system, where the platform basically sits at track level. As a rider, you're closer to the dirt and grime that accumulates from brake dust, water seepage, vermin, tossed garbage etc., than you would be in a conventional high floor metro where you're raised a meter above all the filth.

Subways are dirty places. Nowadays, platform screen doors should be used wherever possible.

Nah, the problem wasn't grime, it was bad construction. Tiles falling out, damaged platforms, poorly sealed joints, that kind of thing.

I definitely agree about platform screen doors. When I took the REM for the first (and so far only) time they were what made it feel most like a modern metro system.

[AuxTown]

When I was in Qatar for the WC their metro had the most extreme example of "Platform screen doors". You were essentially in an immaculate white room with an entire wall of mirrored glass. When the train arrived, the glass opened up and you hopped on. It felt like the future! I guess that's what $36B gets you....

Best pics I could find:
https://thumbs.dreamstime.com/b/doha-qat...d-image-metro-station-city-201236511.jpg


https://previews.123rf.com/images/shakee...ar-metro-station-interior-doha-metro.jpg

[niwell]

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

There is also the St. Clair underground Streetcar loop at St. Clair W station and the Spadina loop at Spadina station. None are particularly messy, though perhaps a bit more than a typical TTC subway station.

I suspect it's mostly to do with sub-par maintenance standards from the P3.

While these are kind of grimy in the normal TTC way they all still feel like "big city" transit infrastructure too. Despite being low floor. Ottawa's system still felt kind of unfinished to me when I rode it, even if it wasn't technically dirty. I understand why it was done this way but it also still feels like a big mistake to only open the central portion that still requires tons of bus transfers. As a system it will be much more useful once current construction is complete.

It will be interesting to see how the Crosstown in Toronto looks once it's open. Based on pictures I've seen it seems a lot better than underground sections in Ottawa, but hard to say how it holds up in service. I do suspect the Province / Metrolinx wants it to go well after Ottawa (and everything else happening lately).

[Innsertnamehere]

Im actually in Ottawa right now and the LRT seems quite clean in general - not sure I understand the complaints here.

There is typical levels of wear and tear one would expect for a public transit system, but generally it was very clean.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

Im actually in Ottawa right now and the LRT seems quite clean in general - not sure I understand the complaints here.

There is typical levels of wear and tear one would expect for a public transit system, but generally it was very clean.

I've ridden the O-Train underground segment this September for the first time in a while. While not shiny new I'd agree it isn't shabby and dirty at all.

Certainly less so than the Montreal metro, which yes I realize is a much older and larger system.