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  #221  
Old Posted Nov 7, 2022, 10:55 PM
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Let's face it, when it comes to development and the repurposing of lands, it's a lose-lose. Almost always has been, and likely always will be.
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  #222  
Old Posted Nov 8, 2022, 4:35 AM
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Let's face it folks. Ottawa is a growing city. You can't stop sprawl. Those who think we can, live in fantasy land.

We can't also impose our lifestyle and housing preferences on everybody. When we do so, there will be unexpected or undesired consequences. If we block suburban growth within the city, it will go outside the city boundaries. This is already happening and will accelerate as we restrict suburban growth more and more tightly. Sorry, but this becomes a benefit to the satellite towns and a loss to the city as we have to support more and more long-distance transportation without tax contributions.

Our problem is our priorities. We have chosen to build an auto-centric city even within Greenbelt. This in itself does not provide a good example of an attractive alternative lifestyle. So, it is a losing cause when we say how great urban living is, with poor transit frequencies and disjointed cycling networks that don't take you where you want to go.

We want something better? We need to do a whole lot better planning so we don't need massive boulevards everywhere, because we don't offer attractive alternatives.

As far as the Greenbelt is concerned, leave it alone. I have argued the same about the Experimental Farm. These are assets to the city and we should not be whittling them away for more cookie-cutter suburban development. We should know better, that we might want some enormously dense development next to a suburban transit station but we know it will end up just the same old development. The demand is not there for million dollar high rise condos many kms from downtown.

Last edited by lrt's friend; Nov 8, 2022 at 5:07 AM.
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  #223  
Old Posted Nov 8, 2022, 6:38 AM
vtecyo vtecyo is offline
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Originally Posted by lrt's friend View Post
Let's face it folks. Ottawa is a growing city. You can't stop sprawl. Those who think we can, live in fantasy land.

We can't also impose our lifestyle and housing preferences on everybody. When we do so, there will be unexpected or undesired consequences. If we block suburban growth within the city, it will go outside the city boundaries. This is already happening and will accelerate as we restrict suburban growth more and more tightly. Sorry, but this becomes a benefit to the satellite towns and a loss to the city as we have to support more and more long-distance transportation without tax contributions.

Our problem is our priorities. We have chosen to build an auto-centric city even within Greenbelt. This in itself does not provide a good example of an attractive alternative lifestyle. So, it is a losing cause when we say how great urban living is, with poor transit frequencies and disjointed cycling networks that don't take you where you want to go.

We want something better? We need to do a whole lot better planning so we don't need massive boulevards everywhere, because we don't offer attractive alternatives.

As far as the Greenbelt is concerned, leave it alone. I have argued the same about the Experimental Farm. These are assets to the city and we should not be whittling them away for more cookie-cutter suburban development. We should know better, that we might want some enormously dense development next to a suburban transit station but we know it will end up just the same old development. The demand is not there for million dollar high rise condos many kms from downtown.
The north side of Barrhaven near the train station is a moot point as far as high rises - that's the area with so much marine clay in the soil that it was going to massively increase the cost of building a few overpasses for the LRT expansion. I think there's very little chance of seeing buildings over 4 stories in that piece of land in the next few decades.

It could be as dense as stacked townhouses - or 3 or 4 story apartments. Arguably it could end up as 4 to 5x the density of the neighbourhood to the south of Fallowfield. However - Barrhaven town centre is already slated for high density development, so if there's towers to be added in the area - it will happen there.
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  #224  
Old Posted Nov 8, 2022, 1:56 PM
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Originally Posted by vtecyo View Post
The north side of Barrhaven near the train station is a moot point as far as high rises - that's the area with so much marine clay in the soil that it was going to massively increase the cost of building a few overpasses for the LRT expansion. I think there's very little chance of seeing buildings over 4 stories in that piece of land in the next few decades.
That did not stop the City from approving Tewin, which not only has poor soil conditions, but is far from existing services.
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  #225  
Old Posted Nov 8, 2022, 3:52 PM
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That did not stop the City from approving Tewin, which not only has poor soil conditions, but is far from existing services.
As I said, the city continues with poor planning. The rationale behind Tewin has nothing to with sound planning and will perpetuate or accelerate us towards an even more autocentric city.
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  #226  
Old Posted Nov 8, 2022, 4:57 PM
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As I said, the city continues with poor planning. The rationale behind Tewin has nothing to with sound planning and will perpetuate or accelerate us towards an even more autocentric city.
Accelerate seems like a stretch. I would guess this steals people from Rockland Greely etc. It's not like someone is weighing living there with a downtown condo or even inside the Greenbelt townhouse.

It's the definition of Canada currently. Corporate lobbying combined with blind and probably misguided wokism. (muisguided in the sense does this provide real reconciliation for those struggling and living the legacy of poverty or just line some pockets of those already doing well from their positions of leadership?)
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  #227  
Old Posted Nov 8, 2022, 7:30 PM
Uhuniau Uhuniau is offline
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We certainly need a review of the Greenbelt. Certain areas near highways and transit should be developed. Once we identify these areas that can be redeveloped without impacting the integrity of the natural attributes and active farms, the rest should be protected as a National Urban Park.

Areas that actually have enduring ecological, cultural, or esthetic importance should be protected.

Pave the rest (slowly and responsibly and tying into suburb repair in neighbouring inner and outer suburbs) as far as I'm concerned.
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  #228  
Old Posted Nov 8, 2022, 7:32 PM
Uhuniau Uhuniau is offline
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It's just a swap, we're not actually stopping, discouraging or slowing down sprawl. We're just relocating it. And that sprawl (at the edge of the city) is much more expensive (extending utilities, expanding size & boundaries, increased traffic & travelling distances).
And it's sprawlier, too, by virtue of being further out and more auto-dependent from the start, and harder to avoid that natural auto-dependency.

Greenbelts are bad, actually.
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  #229  
Old Posted Nov 8, 2022, 7:36 PM
Uhuniau Uhuniau is offline
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Oh, so NOW we’re going to build a nice high-density suburban development. LOL. This time will be different I swear! And what happens when that chunk is gone? Then onto the next piece of greenbelt. We’ll just keep chipping away at it until it’s gone. Sorry, that’s not how this works.
If we actually want to have higher-density suburbs, we can start having them tomorrow.

We can decide to do that.

We don't. And probably won't. But we could, if anything in the official plans and other aspirational BS mean anything.
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  #230  
Old Posted Nov 8, 2022, 7:40 PM
Uhuniau Uhuniau is offline
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Let's face it folks. Ottawa is a growing city. You can't stop sprawl. Those who think we can, live in fantasy land.
What we can do, though, is constrain the form of that 20th/21s-century sprawl so that it can be better when it's freshly built, and - this is key - so that it can evolve over time.

Right now, we have a city where the core can be (and is being) overhauled and rebuilt in ways it largely hadn't been for three wasted decades (70s-90s, roughly). And where the agricultural fringe is being paved over with sprawl that is, despite all our happy words, functionally no different than the inefficient wasteful crap we have been allowing to go up since the end of the war.

But in that post-war suburban middle... very little changes, very little can change, and we do everything in our power to immunize that entire zone, MOST OF THE EXISTING FOOTPRINT OF THE CITY, from ever changing.

That's not sustainable in any sense of that word.
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  #231  
Old Posted Nov 9, 2022, 1:01 AM
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What we can do, though, is constrain the form of that 20th/21s-century sprawl so that it can be better when it's freshly built, and - this is key - so that it can evolve over time.

Right now, we have a city where the core can be (and is being) overhauled and rebuilt in ways it largely hadn't been for three wasted decades (70s-90s, roughly). And where the agricultural fringe is being paved over with sprawl that is, despite all our happy words, functionally no different than the inefficient wasteful crap we have been allowing to go up since the end of the war.

But in that post-war suburban middle... very little changes, very little can change, and we do everything in our power to immunize that entire zone, MOST OF THE EXISTING FOOTPRINT OF THE CITY, from ever changing.

That's not sustainable in any sense of that word.
We can never change suburban design significantly as long as we do not implement great cycling and transit infrastructure from the beginning. Waiting decades to add this, is way too late. The end result, is that we need massive boulevards and acres of parking. We have already increased density compared to 1960s suburbia, but it makes no difference as long as we wait 40 years to finally build one or two transit stations with an hourly connecting bus with service ending at 7 pm. That doesn't even work for a student or a minimum wage retail worker.

Last edited by lrt's friend; Nov 9, 2022 at 1:37 AM.
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  #232  
Old Posted Nov 9, 2022, 6:36 PM
Uhuniau Uhuniau is offline
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We can never change suburban design significantly as long as we do not implement great cycling and transit infrastructure from the beginning.
With or without the transit and cycling, we could impose a rationale, sensible, and intuitive grid structure to new suburbs, and one that makes the built form amenable to future evolution, starting tomorrow.

We don't need to blindly accept the arterial/stroad/crescent/cul-de-sac topology any more. We never did. We just chose to, and keep choosing to. We could choose differently on Thursday morning.

And yes, we need to build for all modes of transport from the start. But building suburbs to the same topologies that we have been building them since the 50s is completely contrary to that goal.

It starts with the layout.
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  #233  
Old Posted Sep 9, 2023, 2:01 PM
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Explaining Ottawa’s Greenbelt - and its future
As the political fallout continues over Doug Ford's decision to open up formerly protected Greenbelt land outside Toronto, we take a closer look at the future (and past) of Ottawa's Greenbelt.

Ken Warren, Ottawa Citizen
Published Sep 09, 2023 • Last updated 4 hours ago • 7 minute read




The controversy and political fallout continue over the Ontario government’s decision to open up formerly protected greenbelt land for housing development just outside Toronto.

First came the resignation of Ryan Amato, chief of staff to Municipal Affairs and Housing Minister Steve Clark. Then came Clark’s decision to step down amid intense pressure, replaced by Paul Calandra. That change was accompanied by Premier Doug Ford’s announcement that all previous Greenbelt land decisions are now up for review.

But let’s not confuse what’s happening in the Big Smoke with Ottawa’s Greenbelt.

What’s the difference between Ottawa’s Greenbelt and the Ontario Greenbelt?

The Ottawa Greenbelt is a 14,950-hectare horseshoe-shaped collection of farmland, forests and wetlands that border the west, south and east ends of Ottawa. It was created in the 1950’s and is managed by the National Capital Commission.

The Ontario Greenbelt includes two million acres of land (or over 800,000 hectares), including protected wetlands, grassland and forests. One swath of territory runs from Niagara, northeast past Kitchener/Waterloo. Another large chunk includes land north of Markham and west of Peterborough.

Who owns Ontario’s Greenbelt? Who owns Ottawa’s?

In 2005, the Dalton McGuinty government declared the Toronto Greenbelt land frozen for development, a decision that current Premier Doug Ford overturned as part of Bill 23 enacted last November.

The province maintains all non-agricultural rights to the land, at an estimated cost of $500,000 per acre.

In Ottawa, however, the National Capital Commission is the landlord for 75 per cent of the Ottawa Greenbelt.

Other federal departments control 20 per cent and private owners own the remaining five per cent.

Accordingly, Bill 23 doesn’t apply.

“There is no change to development potential of Canada’s Capital Greenbelt due to changes in provincial policy or law,” the NCC wrote in response to an inquiry about the status of the property.

What power does the NCC have over Ottawa’s Greenbelt?

The National Capital Act, which governs NCC business, is vague and remarkably broad in scope.

The mandate gives the NCC the authority to “sell, grant, convey, lease or otherwise dispose of or make available to any person any property, subject to such conditions and limitations as it considers necessary or desirable.”

That power concerns the Canadian Parks and Wilderness Society.

“The boundaries of the Greenbelt are set by NCC policy, not by an act of Parliament,” said John McDonnell, executive director of the society’s Ottawa Valley Chapter.

“With an act of Parliament, you need a public process to change the boundaries. We’re very concerned about the fragmentation of the Greenbelt.”

While the NCC says it will begin a “plan revision in 2024”, McDonnell says the NCC has done a poor job of communicating its vision for the land.

What does the boundary of Ottawa’s Greenbelt include?

The Greenbelt’s western boundary is Shirley’s Bay, and it cuts southeast behind the Ottawa International Airport and then northeast towards Orléans.

Its ecological jewels are Stony Swamp in Nepean and the Mer Bleue Bog in Gloucester, both of which are well known to legions of children on school field trips and adult hikers and bird-watchers.

Does the Ontario government’s re-evaluation of greenbelt land in Toronto matter to Ottawa?

No.

While Ford says hundreds of additional applications for land removal in the Toronto area are subject to review, possibly resulting in further changes to the protected land, the NCC does not abide by any ruling from the Ontario government.

What’s the history of Ottawa’s Greenbelt?

Following World War II, Prime Minister William Lyon Mackenzie King commissioned Jacques Gréber, a French town planner, to design a 50-year grand plan for the development of the National Capital region.

The resulting 1950 Gréber Plan included the establishment of a Greenbelt, aimed at reducing urban sprawl.

In 1958, the NCC, with the National Capital Act serving as a guiding principle, was formally established as guardian of the property.

Eight years later, the NCC purchased an additional $40 million in land, hoping it would further curb the expansion of the city.

Ultimately, the initial vision behind the Gréber plan failed. As the population of Ottawa soared and with developmental projects within the city’s old Ottawa boundaries limited, there was a massive move beyond the Greenbelt and into the suburbs, including east in Orleans, south in Barrhaven and west in Kanata.

In 2021, 103,000 people lived in Barrhaven, up from 42,000 in 2001. Kanata’s population jumped to 137,000 from 71,000 between the same 20-year span. Orleans grew from 24,000 to 70,000 from 1981 to 1991 and the 2021 Canadian census reported 139,000 called Orleans home.

Ottawa’s overall population topped the one million mark in 2021 and the city estimates the population of the Ottawa region will hit 1.2 million in 2030, 1.34 million in 2040 and 1.4 million in 2046.

Has housing development been seriously considered for Ottawa’s Greenbelt before?

The exponential growth of the suburbs in the past few decades and the push for more affordable housing closer to the city has heated up the debate about opening up the Greenbelt.

In 2008, when Larry O’Brien served as mayor, the city tabled a white paper suggesting that one-quarter of the land — at an estimated price tag of $1.6 billion — could be developed without damaging the integrity of the Greenbelt.

The informational document argued that the city had expanded well beyond the expectations included in the Gréber Plan and that it made more financial sense to develop greenbelt land.

“Right now we are building on farmland outside the urban area and the question is, does it make sense to protect agricultural land in the Greenbelt when we continue to build farther out?,” said Ian Cross, the author of the white paper. “The primary purpose of the greenbelt was to contain urban development, but that is gone. It didn’t work.”

The paper said commuters were spending an additional $60 million each year in driving costs to the suburbs and that bus routes outside of the city were costing an extra $10 million annually.

At the time, then-NCC chief executive Marie Lemay at least opened the door to consider changes to the Greenbelt.

“Everything is on the table,” she said in the NCC’s 2008 review. “Is the use we have now what we want for the next 10-15 years or are there parts where we want something different?”

Ultimately, the white paper proved too controversial and disappeared with no action taken.

Clearly, though, the lack of affordable housing in the city remains a major issue.

In 2021, Ottawa city council voted to expand the city’s urban boundaries, adding 1,280 hectares of rural land, while also pushing for more development of apartments and condominiums closer to the expanding LRT system.

What’s the working relationship between the NCC and the City of Ottawa when it comes to the Greenbelt?

As suburban development continues to grow, the NCC has worked with the city in developing the Greenbelt Master Plan, which includes the design of roadways and transit through greenbelt land.

That includes consultation on the major expansion of Highway 416 to the south, Highway 417 to the east and how to best handle future LRT traffic along the Kichi Zībī Mīkan Parkway.

“The city enjoys a strong working relationship with the NCC on various issues,” said David Wise, the city’s director of economic development and long-range planning, in a written response to questions on the relationship.

There is a current stalemate, however, between the NCC and the city on how best to handle future LRT and expanded road traffic en route to Orléans.

The city’s proposal is for a route that would cut through parts of the Mer Bleue bog, an avenue the NCC fiercely opposes because of its environmental impacts.

In that regard, McDonnell, of the local chapter of the Canadian Parks and Wilderness Society, leans towards the NCC’s view of the situation, with transportation routes as far away from protected areas as possible.

“We understand the need for roads and transit and support the extension of the LRT,” he said. “But in our new reality post COVID-19, with many people not going back to the office, maybe not everything is absolutely necessary.”

What about declaring the Greenbelt a national urban park?

McDonnell suggests one way for the Greenbelt to be formally protected from development is for the area to officially be declared as a national urban park by Parks Canada.

In August 2021, Parks Canada officially initiated a National Urban Parks Program, stressing the importance of conservation efforts and improving access to nature for city dwellers.

Rouge National Urban Park in Toronto serves as a model.

In a background discussion paper, Parks Canada said the project is important in “enabling present and future generations to understand, appreciate and enjoy their heritage value.”

The federal government has a target of establishing 15 new urban parks, with “at least one in every province or territory” by 2030. The goal is to have six of those in place by 2025.

The shortlist of potential sites for national urban parks includes Victoria, Saskatoon, Edmonton, Winnipeg, Halifax and Montreal.

Ottawa is currently not on the list. When asked about the possibility of becoming part of a national urban park program, the NCC wrote, “the current protection and management of the Greenbelt is under the authority conferred by the National Capital Act and regulations adopted thereunder.”

[email protected]

https://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-news/what-is-the-future-of-ottawas-greenbelt
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  #234  
Old Posted Sep 9, 2023, 3:48 PM
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I think the city should go after the NCC, To land swap with Tewin and allow development on part of the greenbelt. Specifically the section bounded by Huntclub, Woodroffe, Greenbank, & Fallowfield that will eventually have LRT running through it. (Same rules as the Sen̓áḵw dev)

Or Move the CEF out there, the government should have anywhere from 57 to 65 years with of Soil data in the old "Greenbelt Research farm". While turning the CEF into an urban park.

Side Note: The Geo Ottawa greenbelt map and the one shown above don't seem to match.
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  #235  
Old Posted Sep 10, 2023, 5:24 AM
vtecyo vtecyo is offline
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Originally Posted by rocketphish View Post
[B]Explaining Ottawa’s Greenbelt - and its future

...The city’s proposal is for a route that would cut through parts of the Mer Bleue bog...
Is that accurate? I was under the impression the cities preferred route crosses farmland north of the bog.
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  #236  
Old Posted Sep 11, 2023, 3:25 AM
Uhuniau Uhuniau is offline
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Is that accurate? I was under the impression the cities preferred route crosses farmland north of the bog.
Yeah, that's not accurate.
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  #237  
Old Posted Sep 15, 2023, 2:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Williamoforange View Post
I think the city should go after the NCC, To land swap with Tewin and allow development on part of the greenbelt. Specifically the section bounded by Huntclub, Woodroffe, Greenbank, & Fallowfield that will eventually have LRT running through it. (Same rules as the Sen̓áḵw dev)

Or Move the CEF out there, the government should have anywhere from 57 to 65 years with of Soil data in the old "Greenbelt Research farm". While turning the CEF into an urban park.

Side Note: The Geo Ottawa greenbelt map and the one shown above don't seem to match.
You'd have to involve the Algonquins of Ontario and Taggart to get this done. I don't think they'd want to swap one large piece of land with a piecemeal of smaller lots, though that would be better from an urban development perspective.
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  #238  
Old Posted Sep 15, 2023, 2:50 PM
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You'd have to involve the Algonquins of Ontario and Taggart to get this done. I don't think they'd want to swap one large piece of land with a piecemeal of smaller lots, though that would be better from an urban development perspective.
You only have to involve the Algonquin of Ontario. Doubt taggart would care which parcel they build on, especially considering it would double the developable land, Tewin is 445 hectares, the plot I stated is ~850 hectares and it's all owned by the NCC...so no piecemeal.
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  #239  
Old Posted Sep 15, 2023, 3:24 PM
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You only have to involve the Algonquin of Ontario. Doubt taggart would care which parcel they build on, especially considering it would double the developable land, Tewin is 445 hectares, the plot I stated is ~850 hectares and it's all owned by the NCC...so no piecemeal.
Right, sorry. Read your message quickly and just saw the name or roads, didn't notice the "bounded" part.

I think I'd be onboard with this, in exchange for monetary compensation to the NCC (twice the land, likely better suited for construction, though both areas are know to be problematic to different degrees).
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  #240  
Old Posted Sep 15, 2023, 8:02 PM
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Right, sorry. Read your message quickly and just saw the name or roads, didn't notice the "bounded" part.

I think I'd be onboard with this, in exchange for monetary compensation to the NCC (twice the land, likely better suited for construction, though both areas are know to be problematic to different degrees).
Considering it would be going to Algonquin of Ontario and Algonquin of Quebec (not entirely sure of the politics of the groups) I don't think a payment would be required, you know outside of ending the land claim that both have for the entirety of Ottawa....

~850 hectares would be a good exchange if not a very good start to resolving that.
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