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  #441  
Old Posted Sep 1, 2023, 2:44 PM
kwoldtimer kwoldtimer is offline
 
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Originally Posted by J.OT13 View Post
What's wrong with the building that's at the gate? There's space for a building at the other gate a well.
Security again - my understanding was that they needed a considerable upgrade and more space.
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  #442  
Old Posted Sep 1, 2023, 2:47 PM
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Originally Posted by kwoldtimer View Post
Security again - my understanding was that they needed a considerable upgrade and more space.
They want their own palace.

Not seeing how they would need more than a room with a window, a few monitors for the camera feeds and any other security feature, a break room and washroom.

The current security building seems to be about the size of an average sfh. That should be enough.
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  #443  
Old Posted Sep 1, 2023, 2:59 PM
acottawa acottawa is offline
 
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To be fair to the security "experts" (whose services I've had to use when planning sensitive events around the NCR), they aren't usually overly fastidious and alarmist. They provide honest threat assessments with a range. It's upto the government what level of risk they want to accept. I doubt what is said about 24 Sussex would be any different than what is said about 1600 Pennsylvania or 10 Downing St. They can be reached by drones. Riots could overwhelm the perimeter. Etc. Common security problems for any high value premises. Only in Canada, these become convenient excuse to sidestep controversial decisions. That speaks more to political dysfunction than anything about our security experts.
I think they are good at coming up with threat scenarios, they are less good at assigning probabilities to these scenarios.
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  #444  
Old Posted Sep 1, 2023, 6:07 PM
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Because it's not obvious in the article, I'd like to draw attention to the link to the 24 Sussex Revitalization Plan put forward by MTBA (now Trace Architecture). It looks quite well thought out:
https://tracearch.ca/wp-content/uploads/...ABILITATION-PROPOSAL-BY-MTBA_reduced.pdf
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  #445  
Old Posted Sep 1, 2023, 7:02 PM
Uhuniau Uhuniau is offline
 
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The security "experts" think Ottawa is the Baghdad green zone.
Yup. Hammer, nail.
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  #446  
Old Posted Sep 1, 2023, 7:03 PM
Uhuniau Uhuniau is offline
 
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Where would they put the new building for security personnel? That was one of the issues with the site, iirc.
Underground.
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  #447  
Old Posted Sep 1, 2023, 7:45 PM
Truenorth00 Truenorth00 is offline
 
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I think they are good at coming up with threat scenarios, they are less good at assigning probabilities to these scenarios.
They are fine at it. Something doesn't have to be high probability to end up being high risk.



Ultimately though, this is about what the government is willing to accept. Not something a risk assessment says. I would be willing to bet the risk assessment is not anywhere as pressing as what the government is telling the press.

To be clear, I don't think they need to move from 24 Sussex. A lot of the threats can clearly be mitigated (sometimes better in a cluster of high value assets). I just think it's far more likely that politicians are using security assessments as an excuse to justify something they want to do.

Last edited by Truenorth00; Sep 1, 2023 at 8:08 PM.
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  #448  
Old Posted Sep 2, 2023, 2:14 AM
acottawa acottawa is offline
 
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It has to have some sort of reasonable probability of the event and some sort of reasonable probability the threat could be mitigated. For example, if a local terrorist group gets their hands on an RPG and are determined to use it on the PM, are they going to use it on a residence when 1) they have no idea if he is home 2) no idea what part of the house he is in 3) have no idea what the damage will be. Or do they use it at a campaign event where security is light and the PM’s arrival is announced well in advance?

World leaders who are worried about military-style attacks, and do not trust the overall security of the city, do not live with their families in houses in urban areas. They move around frequently, usually to isolated areas or in bunkers.

Last edited by acottawa; Sep 2, 2023 at 2:28 AM.
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  #449  
Old Posted Sep 2, 2023, 2:39 AM
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CBC All in a Day

Radio interview with Marc Denhez, president of Historic Ottawa Development Inc., about their proposal to redevelop 24 Sussex Drive:

https://www.cbc.ca/listen/live-radio/1-92-all-in-a-day/clip/16007081-saving-24-sussex-drive

Aired: Sep. 1, 2023
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  #450  
Old Posted Sep 3, 2023, 1:48 AM
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Where do they live? Looking at official residences of other G7 leaders

Ken Warren, Ottawa Citizen
Published Sep 02, 2023 • Last updated 1 hour ago • 6 minute read


https://ottawacitizen.com/news/national/...-official-residences-of-other-g7-leaders
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  #451  
Old Posted Sep 3, 2023, 1:51 AM
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  #452  
Old Posted Sep 3, 2023, 2:02 AM
acottawa acottawa is offline
 
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Originally Posted by rocketphish View Post
Where do they live? Looking at official residences of other G7 leaders

Ken Warren, Ottawa Citizen
Published Sep 02, 2023 • Last updated 1 hour ago • 6 minute read


https://ottawacitizen.com/news/national/...-official-residences-of-other-g7-leaders
Those are all effective office buildings for the leader’s staff with a private apartment in them. It is a reasonable model for Canada. They could turn the top floor of the Blackburn building into an apartment.
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  #453  
Old Posted Sep 8, 2023, 6:09 PM
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The future of 24 Sussex Drive should be based on facts, not fiction

Sheila Copps and Ken Grafton
Contributed to The Globe and Mail
Published September 7, 2023


Sheila Copps is a former deputy prime minister and former minister of the environment and climate change. Ken Grafton is a Quebec-based writer and director of Historic Ottawa Development Inc.


A trial balloon floated last week in Ottawa has everyone talking.

It was an anonymous leak, first reported by the CBC, of the government’s intention to drop 24 Sussex Drive as the prime minister’s official residence in favour of constructing a shinier, more secure new build at a different site in Ottawa.

Unnamed sources suggested the new building would be larger and have upgraded security, in order to permit the prime minister to host major events, including state dinners, without fear of air, sea or land attack.

The idea of building a new prime ministerial residence really started to pick up steam in 2021, when a report from the National Capital Commission estimated it would take almost $37-million to restore the rodent-infested premises at 24 Sussex. The home has now been vacant for almost a decade and is said to require major security updates, according to the CBC’s sources.

But the estimate of $36.64-million, as quoted in the 2021 NCC report, simply does not pass muster. How could it possibly cost this much to renovate an 11,000-square-foot house? We decided to dig a bit deeper to find some clarity on the matter, and the result is, well, murky at best.

I’m putting in an offer for 24 Sussex. You’re welcome, Canada

In its 2021 report, the NCC attributed much of its 24 Sussex renovation estimate to “deferred maintenance” costs, a term that refers to the restoration work required when a property has been left to rot. To arrive at this number, the NCC referred to its “2018 Asset Portfolio Condition Report,” which stated that its cost estimates include “site overhead and profit,” a 30-per-cent “allowance for soft costs,” a 15-per-cent “construction contingency,” and a 25-per-cent additional, seemingly general “contingency” item.

So, 70 per cent of that huge, $37-million number is based on contingencies and soft costs. From an architectural perspective, it’s simply not a real number.

The 2021 NCC study indicates that “costs were validated by Turner & Townsend,” a Canadian infrastructure consultancy firm. Through an Access to Information request, we were able to obtain a January, 2017, report that Turner & Townsend submitted to the NCC, entitled “Final Report: Cost Assurance and Benchmarking Exercise, 24 Sussex Drive.” The NCC had asked the firm to take a look at previous cost estimates for renovating the prime minister’s residence, which sat at $10-million in 2008. Turner & Townsend found this estimate to be “reasonable and based on a sound and best practice approach to developing cost estimates.”

The question is, how did the cost jump from $10-million to $37-million between 2008 and 2021? Even with deferred maintenance, which can cause costs to soar (the longer a building dilapidates, the worse its condition becomes) we still don’t have clarity from the NCC on why the cost has skyrocketed, what “contingencies” they are apparently planning for, and how much those individual costs are estimated to be. Without this clarity, how can we say that it makes more sense to build an entirely new prime ministerial residence, instead of renovating the original?

Similar holes exist in the security argument for moving from 24 Sussex. The prime minister’s home and the Governor-General’s residence at Rideau Hall are around the corner from one another and currently occupy the same security footprint. The addition of another residence in a different location would likely increase security costs. Desiring a new build with more room for state dinners also ignores the fact there is already a huge entertainment space at Rideau Hall. The proposed scenario would also likely have taxpayers picking up the bill for two properties, one a new build and the other a renovation to prepare 24 Sussex for sale or another use.

The idea of a new building also runs roughshod over the fact that the prime minister’s residence is designated by an act of Parliament and enjoys the highest level of heritage building classification. Multiple levels of government review would be required to build a new one – meanwhile, 24 Sussex would continue to degrade. Not to mention, any demolition or tree removal involved at a new-build site would have a far higher carbon footprint than the known environmental benefits of restoration. It would be difficult to make the argument that this project is fostering sustainability during a climate crisis.

Any decision as to the future of Canada’s prime ministerial residence should be based on real security concerns and sound financial information.

The future of 24 Sussex Drive should be based on facts, not fiction.


https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/...ve-should-be-based-on-facts-not-fiction/
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  #454  
Old Posted Sep 11, 2023, 3:34 AM
Uhuniau Uhuniau is offline
 
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There is an absolutely beautiful, almost-tailor made, very large space that is already there for state occasions.

It's the temporary House of Commons chamber in what used to be the courtyard of West Block. The current plan is to chop it up into smaller committee rooms when the House moves back into the renovated Centre Block. And that's on top of the other committee rooms being built underground in the current project, and proposed for the Confederation Building reno, some decades hence.

Maybe instead of wasting that beautiful volume on committee rooms, maybe Parliament not do that?
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  #455  
Old Posted Sep 12, 2023, 4:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Uhuniau View Post
There is an absolutely beautiful, almost-tailor made, very large space that is already there for state occasions.

It's the temporary House of Commons chamber in what used to be the courtyard of West Block. The current plan is to chop it up into smaller committee rooms when the House moves back into the renovated Centre Block. And that's on top of the other committee rooms being built underground in the current project, and proposed for the Confederation Building reno, some decades hence.

Maybe instead of wasting that beautiful volume on committee rooms, maybe Parliament not do that?
Honestly, this is one of the best ideas I've heard for a while.
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  #456  
Old Posted Sep 16, 2023, 8:38 PM
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It just occurred to me that the following site next to Wateridge Village is still in federal hands, and could be the other location that was considered as a replacement for 24 Sussex "near the RCMP Musical Ride training centre to the east of Rockcliffe Park".

If so, I'd agree that this would be less than ideal, being relatively far from downtown, requiring circuitous travel routes to and from parliament and elsewhere, and having awkward access. Also, it may eventually be right next to a trucking route to a bridge.

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  #457  
Old Posted Sep 17, 2023, 4:08 AM
lrt's friend lrt's friend is offline
 
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Originally Posted by rocketphish View Post
It just occurred to me that the following site next to Wateridge Village is still in federal hands, and could be the other location that was considered as a replacement for 24 Sussex "near the RCMP Musical Ride training centre to the east of Rockcliffe Park".

If so, I'd agree that this would be less than ideal, being relatively far from downtown, requiring circuitous travel routes to and from parliament and elsewhere, and having awkward access. Also, it may eventually be right next to a trucking route to a bridge.

Hilly terrain?
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  #458  
Old Posted Sep 17, 2023, 4:19 PM
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Great justification for the bridge, I say. NIMBYs can't complain if the PM, who would be most effected, supported the bridge.
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  #459  
Old Posted Sep 18, 2023, 6:03 PM
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Maybe the government could buy this instead. Half the cost of refurbishing 24 Sussex, but the commute would be a —.

https://torontolife.com/real-estate/surreal-estate-french-palace-bayview-golf-simulator-north-york/
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  #460  
Old Posted Sep 18, 2023, 6:18 PM
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Originally Posted by roger1818 View Post
Maybe the government could buy this instead. Half the cost of refurbishing 24 Sussex, but the commute would be a —.

https://torontolife.com/real-estate/surreal-estate-french-palace-bayview-golf-simulator-north-york/
No worries. He can wfh. The staple of a healthy democracy.

Quote:
Hybrid sittings are here to stay as House passes sweeping rule changes


Rachel Aiello
Senior Digital Parliamentary Reporter
Published June 15, 2023 9:15
https://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/hybrid-s...e-passes-sweeping-rule-changes-1.6443326
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