DENVER | Main Development Thread #7

[jhwk]

Originally Posted by rds70

In development news:

The latest proposal for 650 17th Street, a 39 story hotel/apartment building. 223 hotel rooms, 320 residential units, 430 feet:

Is this still Greystar or are they out? Also interesting that this is shorter but will have more units than the previous proposal (not the condo grifters, the second one).

[RyanD]

Originally Posted by rds70

In development news:

The latest proposal for 650 17th Street, a 39 story hotel/apartment building. 223 hotel rooms, 320 residential units, 430 feet:

Let's hope this new one doesn't get killed due to the request for a curb cut adjacent to the alley that the city wouldn't budge on. The back and forth between the engineering team and DOTI was atrocious and doesn't surprise me why the last project didn't move forward. I'm all for better streets, etc but this last case was in the realm of insanity. There needs to be a happy-medium, but absolutes are the new way to play in the world.

[TakeFive]

This could be BIG

https://kdvr.com/news/local/16-downtown-...sidered-as-possible-housing-conversions/

“If the top 16 buildings from Denver’s analysis were converted to residential uses, this could add over 5,000 units to our downtown neighborhood,” said Jon Gambrill, managing director of Gensler’s Denver office, in a news release. “This would also convert upwards of 4.3 million square feet of office space to new residential uses.”

Backstory

The study found 21 buildings that are considered “good candidates” for conversion based on walkability, natural light, parking, building age and potential unit count. This was later narrowed down to 16 by the architecture firm Gensler, which the city partnered with for this project.

Even if you cut this in half to 8 building conversions it would still be of immense benefit.

[TakeFive]

More good news for Denver's downtown

Here's the KEY piece:

https://www.9news.com/article/news/local.../73-0d42a21d-2470-4a16-9b84-91c0fa948d86

"This fits the design of how the services operate," Johnston said. "We want to take what has historically been very concentrated services for a large number of people in a small part of the city, and decentralize those. So you have people in smaller communities spread out in different parts of the city with different kinds of providers who provide different kinds of support."

Backstory

DENVER — The City of Denver is seeking bids for service providers who can serve 40 to 100 people at seven to 10 planned "micro-communities" for people experiencing homelessness.

Johnston said the city is putting out the request for proposal (RFP) on Wednesday and is seeking any organization willing and able to provide the requested services. Johnston said the RFPs are focused on soliciting smaller, local, community-based nonprofit organizations, which he said is different from how they've been structured in the past.

The city is seeking bids for site operations, wrap-around services, direct provisions from community-based providers and more, Johnston said.

I've said forever that the concentration of services downtown is a magnet for drawing in homeless people. There's no reason all services can't be provided wherever homeless housing is provided.

They also announced the acquisition of the Stay Inn Hotel located in the 12000 block of E. 38th Ave, which had been in the works for a couple of years awaiting federal funding.

[laniroj]

Originally Posted by RyanD

Let's hope this new one doesn't get killed due to the request for a curb cut adjacent to the alley that the city wouldn't budge on. The back and forth between the engineering team and DOTI was atrocious and doesn't surprise me why the last project didn't move forward. I'm all for better streets, etc but this last case was in the realm of insanity. There needs to be a happy-medium, but absolutes are the new way to play in the world.

I've made my fair share of DOTI comments on this forum and appreciate you pointing this entity out for what it has become - which is a static entity with no employee empowerment to make reasonable decisions which leads to DOTI singlehandedly killing projects and/or making them worse. DOTI is the biggest obstacle to development in Denver, hands down, after lack of appropriately zoned land.

[bobg]

Originally Posted by RyanD

Let's hope this new one doesn't get killed due to the request for a curb cut adjacent to the alley that the city wouldn't budge on. The back and forth between the engineering team and DOTI was atrocious and doesn't surprise me why the last project didn't move forward. I'm all for better streets, etc but this last case was in the realm of insanity. There needs to be a happy-medium, but absolutes are the new way to play in the world.

Do you know where I can find a link to the details on that back and forth? I only know what's been mentioned on this forum

Generally the curb cuts and curb space downtown is chaotic, and adding to that chaos isn't good (especially on a road people routinely speed on like 17th). There's a very busy bus stop on 17th/california adjacent to an even busier 17th st bus lane, and of course the light rail on California which makes it hard to find an obvious place for a curb cut. Having had an office on the other side of the alley I know that alley is very wide already to accommodate the angled loading zone.

I'd be inclined to agree with DOTI on the surface, but the devil is always in the details.

[rds70]

Originally Posted by RyanD

Let's hope this new one doesn't get killed due to the request for a curb cut adjacent to the alley that the city wouldn't budge on. The back and forth between the engineering team and DOTI was atrocious and doesn't surprise me why the last project didn't move forward. I'm all for better streets, etc but this last case was in the realm of insanity. There needs to be a happy-medium, but absolutes are the new way to play in the world.

The plan for this building does show a curb cut directly adjacent to the alley. However, this proposal does not have access to the alley like the previous version. I don’t know if that will make a difference?

[wong21fr]

Originally Posted by jhwk

Is this still Greystar or are they out? Also interesting that this is shorter but will have more units than the previous proposal (not the condo grifters, the second one).

Nope, looks like Harbringrer is currently trying to develop this one solo. Let’s all recall how their previous attempt went.

[laniroj]

Originally Posted by bobg

Do you know where I can find a link to the details on that back and forth? I only know what's been mentioned on this forum

Generally the curb cuts and curb space downtown is chaotic, and adding to that chaos isn't good (especially on a road people routinely speed on like 17th). There's a very busy bus stop on 17th/california adjacent to an even busier 17th st bus lane, and of course the light rail on California which makes it hard to find an obvious place for a curb cut. Having had an office on the other side of the alley I know that alley is very wide already to accommodate the angled loading zone.

I'd be inclined to agree with DOTI on the surface, but the devil is always in the details.

Huh? There's a 1.5 lane buffer (bus lane) between the sidewalk and all that vehicle "traffic" you're talking about. This is not a vehicle/pedestrian interface safety thing. The # vehicle trips a project like this would generate would be negligible in that aspect. This is a 16' alley just like all the others, but 600 17th Street is maybe setback an extra 2' for whatever reason.

No part of Downtown Denver is chaotic, at least not comparatively with other large cities. For one, it's only remotely busy for 3 hours per day, half in morning and half at night. Two, 17th Street has almost no traffic for a big city downtown street. Many areas of the western world are much busier with vehicles AND pedestrians and manage to get by with all smorgasbord or curb cuts, loading zones, buses, trains, and LOTS of vehicles/people interfacing.

Do you work for DOTI?!?! My apologies in advance.

[bobg]

Originally Posted by laniroj

Huh? There's a 1.5 lane buffer (bus lane) between the sidewalk and all that vehicle "traffic" you're talking about. This is not a vehicle/pedestrian interface safety thing. The # vehicle trips a project like this would generate would be negligible in that aspect. This is a 16' alley just like all the others, but 600 17th Street is maybe setback an extra 2' for whatever reason.

No part of Downtown Denver is chaotic, at least not comparatively with other large cities. For one, it's only remotely busy for 3 hours per day, half in morning and half at night. Two, 17th Street has almost no traffic for a big city downtown street. Many areas of the western world are much busier with vehicles AND pedestrians and manage to get by with all smorgasbord or curb cuts, loading zones, buses, trains, and LOTS of vehicles/people interfacing.

Do you work for DOTI?!?! My apologies in advance.

I do not work at or for DOTI which is why I don't know what was said, and am trying to understand the rationale before jumping to conclusions.

Do you know why they nixed it? Or know where that communication can be found?

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by Brainpathology

My niece just had her truck stolen in Denver, They (my niece and her parents) spotted it literally every day for a month.. called the police each time. They kept refusing to show up to recover it. The truck was basically a billboard with a very distinctive paint job. It was recovered after being towed for illegally parking AFTER it was painted. To get her own car back she had to pay 300.00 to get it out of the police lot.

Sorry to hear about your niece; can't imagine the frustration. Trucks are the hot target in Denver apparently.

Have you seen any of the viral videos of Flash Mob robberies in L.A?

Flash mobs invade luxury L.A. retailers with brute force, overwhelming numbers

Dressed in monochrome black and gray head to toe, they stormed through the doors of the Nordstrom at the Westfield Topanga mall Saturday afternoon.

More than 30 masked robbers, men and women, flowed into the Canoga Park store, immediately heading for the top-dollar purses, clothes racks and jewels.

Mayor Karen Bass was not a happy camper. Coincidentally, POLITICO has a nice piece on my 'favorite' Mayor.

[TakeFive]

The pot is stirring, the stew is brewing


Courtesy Sara Hertwig April 30, 2022 for The Denver Gazette

Elitch Gardens plans to move, with Aurora on its list of possible landing sites
Aug 16, 2023 By Kyla Pearce - The Denver Gazette

The amusement park will relocate, Revesco Properties officials said, but the property management company hasn't decided where yet.

Given Aurora's location, with room to expand, and city officials' desire to expand its entertainment opportunities with the Gaylord Rockies Resort and Conference Center, the city is in the running for the amusement park's next home.

Revesco Properties' spokesperson Julia Oblack said the company is actively looking for a site for a new Elitch Gardens location in metro Denver. "We have been in discussions with a number of jurisdictions who may have suitable sites," Oblack said.

Aurora Mayor Mike Coffman has been in communication with Kroenke Sports and Entertainment, which co-owns the property, in recent months to discuss the possibility of the amusement park re-locating to Aurora. Their plan, if Aurora is chosen, would be to put Elitch Gardens in the Adams County portion of northeast Aurora just west of E-470, Coffman said.

[laniroj]

Originally Posted by bobg

I do not work at or for DOTI which is why I don't know what was said, and am trying to understand the rationale before jumping to conclusions.

Do you know why they nixed it? Or know where that communication can be found?

You could submit a CORA (colorado open records act) request to DOTI - to release their emails regarding the curb cut. That would certainly stir some feathers.

Mid-block curb cuts as a standard, as Ryan D referred to, are not allowed. Even when redevelopment occurs on properties which have an existing mid-block curb cut or existing curb cut too close to an intersection, DOTI will require they be eliminated to meet current "standards". As Ryan eludes to "absolutes" are the new way of governing at any expense.

[COtoOC]

Originally Posted by TakeFive

The pot is stirring, the stew is brewing


Courtesy Sara Hertwig April 30, 2022 for The Denver Gazette

Elitch Gardens plans to move, with Aurora on its list of possible landing sites
Aug 16, 2023 By Kyla Pearce - The Denver Gazette

If it moves out there to the hail/tornado zone, hopefully they can expand it to be more like a Six Flags-sized amusement park. I still love the current location though.

And hopefully they get that unicorn trail to the airport installed to help manage the traffic problems on Pena before a new Elitch's opens.

[bobg]

Originally Posted by laniroj

Huh? There's a 1.5 lane buffer (bus lane) between the sidewalk and all that vehicle "traffic" you're talking about. This is not a vehicle/pedestrian interface safety thing. The # vehicle trips a project like this would generate would be negligible in that aspect. This is a 16' alley just like all the others, but 600 17th Street is maybe setback an extra 2' for whatever reason.

No part of Downtown Denver is chaotic, at least not comparatively with other large cities. For one, it's only remotely busy for 3 hours per day, half in morning and half at night. Two, 17th Street has almost no traffic for a big city downtown street. Many areas of the western world are much busier with vehicles AND pedestrians and manage to get by with all smorgasbord or curb cuts, loading zones, buses, trains, and LOTS of vehicles/people interfacing.

Do you work for DOTI?!?! My apologies in advance.

Originally Posted by laniroj

You could submit a CORA (colorado open records act) request to DOTI - to release their emails regarding the curb cut. That would certainly stir some feathers.

Mid-block curb cuts as a standard, as Ryan D referred to, are not allowed. Even when redevelopment occurs on properties which have an existing mid-block curb cut or existing curb cut too close to an intersection, DOTI will require they be eliminated to meet current "standards". As Ryan eludes to "absolutes" are the new way of governing at any expense.

Ugh was hoping someone would say it's attached to the site development plan review and you can access it at some place I wasn't aware of (don't do development). Will look into submitting one over the weekend.

Don't get me wrong I wholeheartedly agree with that standard on curbcuts. I've lived overseas and travelled extensively, so Ive seen the value in limiting them, and when allowing them putting them on low volume low speed streets where possible. As I stated previously my inclination would be to support DOTI on this particular site as well. But they should at a minimum be giving deviations from the standard real consideration.

[TakeFive]

With respect to 650 17th St

I did see where Greystar is out of the deal. I had assumed they were considering being a developer-partner but in any case they clearly decided it wasn't worth chasing. My guess is that Harbinger isn't really interested in developing the site either (at this point). I'm assuming they want to secure entitlement approval to be in a better position to sell the property-project.

The one happy party attached to that site is Buzz Geller's investment group.

Originally Posted by COtoOC

If it moves out there to the hail/tornado zone, hopefully they can expand it to be more like a Six Flags-sized amusement park. I still love the current location though.

And hopefully they get that unicorn trail to the airport installed to help manage the traffic problems on Pena before a new Elitch's opens.

That's a good question. What kind of amusement park are they even interested in. Given that Kroenke is involved I'm guessing they would also be interested in additional development opportunities along with the new Elitch's (but maybe not).

I did see where the anti-car crowd thinks people should use buses to the airport - if not the train. It's as though they assume everybody on Pena Blvd is going to the airport. Apparently a growing amount of traffic is NOT; it's local traffic. With business travelers few would have any interest in taking a bus; they want door-to-door rideshare service both for its convenience and reliability.

[Robert.hampton]

9 months in Denver has a website to let you know how high your absurd sidewalk fees will be. But they have no idea how much it will cost to implement. No idea when they’ll start implementing. No idea when the plan for implementation will be created. No idea how long it will take to implement. And every property owner has ceased to maintain their sidewalk in the city.

What a cluster fuck and a stupid ass counter productive ballot initiative.

[RyanD]

Originally Posted by laniroj

I've made my fair share of DOTI comments on this forum and appreciate you pointing this entity out for what it has become - which is a static entity with no employee empowerment to make reasonable decisions which leads to DOTI singlehandedly killing projects and/or making them worse. DOTI is the biggest obstacle to development in Denver, hands down, after lack of appropriately zoned land.

Originally Posted by bobg

Do you know where I can find a link to the details on that back and forth? I only know what's been mentioned on this forum

Generally the curb cuts and curb space downtown is chaotic, and adding to that chaos isn't good (especially on a road people routinely speed on like 17th). There's a very busy bus stop on 17th/california adjacent to an even busier 17th st bus lane, and of course the light rail on California which makes it hard to find an obvious place for a curb cut. Having had an office on the other side of the alley I know that alley is very wide already to accommodate the angled loading zone.

I'd be inclined to agree with DOTI on the surface, but the devil is always in the details.

Originally Posted by rds70

The plan for this building does show a curb cut directly adjacent to the alley. However, this proposal does not have access to the alley like the previous version. I don’t know if that will make a difference?

All of the correspondence is in e-Permits. If you create an account (free) you can access all of the documents. The particular record is 2022-TRAN-0000159. I see it's approved now so maybe there was a change or heart but this was lingering for months before moving on.. Here's a link to the full response letter that I found if you are curious:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1KXJDmm7tzZ6KpjummLf1pirdwgJTa0ux/view?usp=sharing

I agree that adding curb space is chaotic but because of deliveries in the alley, it does leave it blocked for access. Remember, there's a Target there that gets regular deliveries. They have the traffic study in the records showing exactly that, two trucks blocking the alley for a length of time that would not allow access to the building. Unfortunately, we don't live in a perfect city where people don't need cars, we can only wish. So, Greystar wanted to curb cut right next to the alley so... you know... their building wouldn't get blocked by deliveries, but it didn't seem like DOTI was budging on it. Rumor has it that's what killed that project, which is completely unacceptable.

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by RyanD

All of the correspondence is in e-Permits. If you create an account (free) you can access all of the documents. The particular record is 2022-TRAN-0000159. I see it's approved now so maybe there was a change or heart but this was lingering for months before moving on.. Here's a link to the full response letter that I found if you are curious:

Fascinating read; I was surprised that I was able to follow along for the most part considering the level of detail.

Couldn't help but think about at least two properties that have curb cuts for valet service - but not resident parking access - although one's a hotel. Tons of rideshare and/or van drops/pickups though. Being in downtown - old town Scottsdale there tons of traffic but not as much transit certainly.

I agree with you that a curb cut is necessary and I doubt it will be that much of an issue in reality.

[bobg]

Originally Posted by RyanD

All of the correspondence is in e-Permits. If you create an account (free) you can access all of the documents. The particular record is 2022-TRAN-0000159. I see it's approved now so maybe there was a change or heart but this was lingering for months before moving on.. Here's a link to the full response letter that I found if you are curious:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1KXJDmm7tzZ6KpjummLf1pirdwgJTa0ux/view?usp=sharing

I agree that adding curb space is chaotic but because of deliveries in the alley, it does leave it blocked for access. Remember, there's a Target there that gets regular deliveries. They have the traffic study in the records showing exactly that, two trucks blocking the alley for a length of time that would not allow access to the building. Unfortunately, we don't live in a perfect city where people don't need cars, we can only wish. So, Greystar wanted to curb cut right next to the alley so... you know... their building wouldn't get blocked by deliveries, but it didn't seem like DOTI was budging on it. Rumor has it that's what killed that project, which is completely unacceptable.

Thank you so much for the link, explanation, and how to access for future reference (and saving me from wasting money on a Cora request). You are awesome.

I knew Target was using that alley, I didn't know to what extent they monopolized it. That would be tough if not impossible to work around, and for Greystar to use that as access.

It sounds like they were pushing for moving the Z bus stop closer to Welton but DOTI was a little apprehensive due to the turning movements with the now two way Welton(which
IIRC was done at the request of Target). I was wondering about that the other day because of the routine bus bunching and the 0 being articulated, space would likely be insufficient with another curbcut, and the other side of the alley should be a turn lane.

Tough nut to crack for sure, but I get where you're coming from on it.