PHILADELPHIA | Highrise Development Thread X

[Mtphilly]

Originally Posted by Sir610Jawnman

Forget about Eataly or any overrated chains. Let other struggling major cities have them as tourist traps since their cities don't offer the cultural amenities Philly has, and it's not just CC. We're the best food city in the US, and even if nobody considers Philly the official culinary capital, I do and currently I'm both glad and overwhelmed to live in the finest 135 sq. mi. of the USA.

OK, enough boostering, but seriously Reading Terminal Market should be advertised and better known to outsiders. This is indisputably the greatest urban market in the country and should serve as a paragon of how to create vibrant public spaces. How many other cities do you have an urban market so close to a convention center, a main street, a train station, a Greyhound station, and a short walk from so many world-class attractions?

Again I apologize for hyper-praising Philly but I can't help it to learn and realize this city is changing so fast the last few years it feels like it's too good for me to live in and what have I done to deserve such a classy place to call home. I'm truly humbled by Philly and I want to rescind any negative opinions I might have about this city before. Unlike many newcomers, I've been in this region since the 90s and I've seen the worst days and when it WAS dangerous to walk around Center City after dark or on weekends.

I don’t think people are saying Philly’s food scene isn’t great or that it needs Eataly. My concern is that when given the option, a popular national chain would rather go to King of Prussia than Center City. It’s not the end of the world but it shows that some national chains have reservations about opening their business in Philadelphia and we should try to figure out why that is.

[skyhigh07]

Originally Posted by Mtphilly

I don’t think people are saying Philly’s food scene isn’t great or that it needs Eataly. My concern is that when given the option, a popular national chain would rather go to King of Prussia than Center City. It’s not the end of the world but it shows that some national chains have reservations about opening their business in Philadelphia and we should try to figure out why that is.

Agreed. Well said.

[thoughtcriminal]

Originally Posted by Mtphilly

I don’t think people are saying Philly’s food scene isn’t great or that it needs Eataly. My concern is that when given the option, a popular national chain would rather go to King of Prussia than Center City. It’s not the end of the world but it shows that some national chains have reservations about opening their business in Philadelphia and we should try to figure out why that is.

I think, I hope, that the "problem" is that national chains can't compete with the local, individual restaurants in Center City that make the food scene so great. Who would want to eat at a chain restaurant when there are so many cool, unique places to eat?

[Skintreesnail]

Originally Posted by Jayfar

There had been off and on talk of expanding RTM across Filbert St into the Reading headhouse. That’s a thing that should happen.

Yeah, I've been wondering what ever happened to that idea, if it stalled or what. There used to be some culinary education aspect to it i think too. In any case i think expansion to the headhouse makes perfect sense, and just shut filbert to cars already. A small outdoor section of vendors would be cool. Or dream bigger and do something like this:
47 Via dell'Ariento
https://maps.app.goo.gl/CZqdLA9yGqi443Wg7
The fabric workshop is nearby. I guess it would have made more sense if the textile industry was still big here. In any case, RTM is a great asset and it really should be marketed more.

The Eataly thing I think is dumb, it really should be in center city. Maybe they wanted strawbridges (wasn't that the location in the rumor?) but heirloom got there first. I wonder what that old gimbels space would be like as a market.

[Frontst17]

Nah Eataly definitely belongs in KOP. We don’t need it or have the real estate to waste on something like that. Never even heard that place mentioned outside of this forum. Currently in Athens and it makes me realize Philly is exactly what I want it to be and it continues to grow on organically as it should be. Again too many people want Disney land when in reality to attract the international clientele we desire so much we need to stay unique and genuine as this city is now. We just need more than of what we already have. Great bars, restaurants, shops, parks, museums, and quality schools. We don’t need to change we just need to keep growing.

[PHLtoNYC]

Originally Posted by Frontst17

Nah Eataly definitely belongs in KOP. We don’t need it or have the real estate to waste on something like that. Never even heard that place mentioned outside of this forum. Currently in Athens and it makes me realize Philly is exactly what I want it to be and it continues to grow on organically as it should be. Again too many people want Disney land when in reality to attract the international clientele we desire so much we need to stay unique and genuine as this city is now. We just need more than of what we already have. Great bars, restaurants, shops, parks, museums, and quality schools. We don’t need to change we just need to keep growing.

Center City has a retail vacancy rate of ~18%, so yes, there is room for more high-quality commercial tenants to join the fun. It's Eataly, not a rehab center... the pushback from some on here is bizarre...

And again, their chosen location is what it is, but your logic is off...

[Frontst17]

As I said we need more of the great things we already offer. More = reduced vacancy. The desire for this place as some status symbol is even more bizarre

[PHLtoNYC]

Originally Posted by Frontst17

As I said we need more of the great things we already offer. More = reduced vacancy. The desire for this place as some status symbol is even more bizarre

Give me a break. No one suggested that.
Myself and others said that a reputable, large, long-term retailer that generates a lot of foot traffic like Eataly would have been a nice addition to Center City and one less commercial vacancy. It's no different than another supermarket or department store opening... which is a net positive.

Local shops (which I agree are great and important) and national retailers can peacefully co-exit, and make for a healthy mixed-use downtown, it's not a foreign concept.

It's like talking to a brick wall sometimes...

[Frontst17]

What’s the square footage on one of these? I just don’t know where it would go and not cannibalize what we already have. It’s going to be hugely successful in KOP I don’t see a place for it in CC

[ColdJay64]

Originally Posted by Frontst17

What’s the square footage on one of these? I just don’t know where it would go and not cannibalize what we already have. It’s going to be hugely successful in KOP I don’t see a place for it in CC

Like 50,000 square ft. I thought the old Barnes and Noble space would've been awesome, though it is very near DiBruno and I don't know the size of that building.

There's a huge, historic industrial building at 22nd and Washington that would've been an awesome location and OCF is currently rehabbing it to become retail. On the edge of Grad Hospital, walkable from Rittenhouse, and in an area without many grocery options - I actually think it could work there. I went to Eataly in Munich, I don't think it's any pricier than Sprouts.

[PurpleWhiteOut]

Originally Posted by Frontst17

As I said we need more of the great things we already offer. More = reduced vacancy. The desire for this place as some status symbol is even more bizarre

I agree. I've never heard of this place. The hand wringing here over everything is insane. How many more pages are we going to shout into the void over this on the highrise topic.

[summersm343]

While I do agree that the desire to have big national chains and brands is certainly a more American thing, and European’s typically desire more authenticity and local brands/restaurants in their cities, we need to remember that the good majority of visitors to Philadelphia is and always will be American’s, even if we do up our international recognition.

Eataly is more of an urban brand. The city of Philadelphia and the metropolitan area are both plenty big enough to support two of many of these stores. A lot of stores in KOP should have a presence in the city as well. Market East should be a mini Times Square type of area with national brands and chains just like Eataly, Lego, Disney, Hershey, etc. It should be our city’s suburban visitor entertainment district.

Am I going to lose sleep over it? No. But, it’s still important to continue to strive for a better Philadelphia in all facets.

[BroadandMarket]

Originally Posted by ColdJay64

Like 50,000 square ft. I thought the old Barnes and Noble space would've been awesome, though it is very near DiBruno and I don't know the size of that building.

There's a huge, historic industrial building at 22nd and Washington that would've been an awesome location and OCF is currently rehabbing it to become retail. On the edge of Grad Hospital, walkable from Rittenhouse, and in an area without many grocery options - I actually think it could work there. I went to Eataly in Munich, I don't think it's any pricier than Sprouts.

22nd and Washington in Point Breeze is one of the last places Eataly would ever pick haha. They want tourists and a downtown environment, both of which don't exist in a gritty post industrial Point Breeze. Market East and Rittenhouse would be the only spots they'd pick in Philly. If the Fashion District and surrounding area wasn't a mess, they'd probably be there.

[therealdawk]

Originally Posted by Frontst17

What’s the square footage on one of these? I just don’t know where it would go and not cannibalize what we already have. It’s going to be hugely successful in KOP I don’t see a place for it in CC

I was kinda thinking along these lines. If a building was built on 8th & market, wouldn't that be too close to the RTM?
There's probably room somewhere on north Broad but would people actually go there?
I know that there's big plans for the future development of the Navy Yard but it isn't ready for something like Eataly yet, I wouldn't think.

[summersm343]

Outside of Rittenhouse or Market East, I can think of a few places that could accommodate some of these types of tenants in the future. Schuylkill Yards, Penn’s Landing, Northern Liberties/Fishtown/“SoNo”, South Street if it continues to change and reinvent itself into a more upscale strip, The Navy Yard and maybe even around the Stadiums if the city finally wises up and entices developers to build up the Stadium District. None of these places are ready today for big national brands, but if these areas/neighborhoods continue to build up, then Philadelphia is going to be a drastically different city 5-10 years from now with all of these new areas.

[skyhigh07]

Originally Posted by summersm343

While I do agree that the desire to have big national chains and brands is certainly a more American thing, and European’s typically desire more authenticity and local brands/restaurants in their cities, we need to remember that the good majority of visitors to Philadelphia is and always will be American’s, even if we do up our international recognition.

European cities tend to have a healthy mix of local, independent brands and upscale international retailers - one of the reasons their retail corridors are attractive and vibrant.

[skyhigh07]

Originally Posted by PHLtoNYC

Give me a break. No one suggested that.
Myself and others said that a reputable, large, long-term retailer that generates a lot of foot traffic like Eataly would have been a nice addition to Center City and one less commercial vacancy. It's no different than another supermarket or department store opening... which is a net positive.

Local shops (which I agree are great and important) and national retailers can peacefully co-exit, and make for a healthy mixed-use downtown, it's not a foreign concept.

It's like talking to a brick wall sometimes...

Exactly. I don’t understand why people on here are getting defensive - it doesn’t have anything to do with “status”. I don’t really shop at high end retail chain brands but I can appreciate the vibrancy and variety they offer to the streetscape. And tbh a lot storefronts east of Broad could definitely use some help. Not to mention, several large retail spaces on Walnut have sat vacant for quite some time. Maybe I’m just insane for wanting to see a beautiful building like the Drexel Building activated again with a quality tenant lol

[nemesisinphilly]

I've only been to the Eataly in Flatiron and it's a nice bland touristy place which is always packed. The food at least a few years ago was pretty good as well. It's much less hectic then RTM and really it's not a good comparison.

Something like Eataly or Time Out Market would do very well to replace the Bourse. The current situation at the Bourse has been an abject failure. This space should be packed with tourists every day of the week. Instead they're down to what, like 6 or 7 food vendors? It's embarrassing honestly.

A Time Out Market would be the ideal tenant here. Focusing on established local restaurateurs like they do in every other city. We have plenty here to sustain an above average food hall.

The best one of these I've been to is in Lisbon which had high quality outposts of most of that city's best dining options. No reason we can't do that here.

[UrbanRevival]

Originally Posted by nemesisinphilly

The current situation at the Bourse has been an abject failure. This space should be packed with tourists every day of the week. Instead they're down to what, like 6 or 7 food vendors? It's embarrassing honestly.

That's a shame. I mean, I remember going to the revamped Bourse pre-pandemic, and it was very crowded, and I remember thinking they did an awesome job with revitalizing the space. Felt like a "bougier" version of RTM, and I do think the pricing reflected that. Obviously, the timing of the pandemic meant that it didn't find enough footing (many were startup business, too, so they didn't have enough financial cushion).

But I think you're probably right; many tourists get jazzed about brands they can identify and recognize as "hip," even if that goes against the fiercely independent sensibilities of most Philadelphians.

[nemesisinphilly]

Originally Posted by UrbanRevival

That's a shame. I mean, I remember going to the revamped Bourse pre-pandemic, and it was very crowded, and I remember thinking they did an awesome job with revitalizing the space. Felt like a "bougier" version of RTM, and I do think the pricing reflected that. Obviously, the timing of the pandemic meant that it didn't find enough footing (many were startup business, too, so they didn't have enough financial cushion).

But I think you're probably right; many tourists get jazzed about brands they can identify and recognize as "hip," even if that goes against the fiercely independent sensibilities of most Philadelphians.

It can be both hip and local independent. The Time Out Markets I've been to have outposts of hip local places, think like Goldie/Federal Donuts, Fiorella, Middle Child, Mike's BBQ, etc. Not national chains, just fast casual versions of the best Philly has to offer. The one in Lisbon has casual options from multiple Michelin starred chefs.