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  #16941  
Old Posted Aug 2, 2023, 8:22 PM
lrt's friend lrt's friend is offline
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It was listed as a development that is not TOD. lrt's friend suggested that since 4 towers were being built at Billings Bridge, the transitway station is inducing TOD. Sure someone who lives there might be able to use transit, but you can't say that because it is close to transit it is therefore TOD.
Not exactly what I meant. I was saying there are a number of factors that induce development. Rail transit is not the only factor.

I guess to be exact, TOD is really development immediately adjacent to rapid transit stations. So, we can't say that towers going up 1 km away from a station is TOD. I would expect that few would walk that distance on a daily basis.
     
     
  #16942  
Old Posted Aug 2, 2023, 8:51 PM
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Not exactly what I meant. I was saying there are a number of factors that induce development. Rail transit is not the only factor.

I guess to be exact, TOD is really development immediately adjacent to rapid transit stations. So, we can't say that towers going up 1 km away from a station is TOD. I would expect that few would walk that distance on a daily basis.
Thanks for the clarification. I still say that TOD is development strategy by the city to encourage denser development closer to transit stations and not a label that can be applied to any one building (or group of buildings).
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  #16943  
Old Posted Aug 3, 2023, 1:04 AM
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Thanks for the clarification. I still say that TOD is development strategy by the city to encourage denser development closer to transit stations and not a label that can be applied to any one building (or group of buildings).
Sure, I am in agreement.
     
     
  #16944  
Old Posted Aug 3, 2023, 3:12 AM
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How do you spell frustration? Transit riders offer entries for the Ottawa Light Rail Thesaurus
“I have friends around the world who say, ‘Oh, yeah. We hear about you guys and your wonderful transit system that doesn't work.’”

Bruce Deachman, Ottawa Citizen
Published Aug 02, 2023 • Last updated 8 hours ago • 4 minute read


“We know this will be frustrating to our customers,” City of Ottawa transit services GM Renée Amilcar said as the LRT shutdown entered its third week on Monday.

Ottawa Transit Commission chair and Stittsville Coun. Glen Gower likewise described the situation as “frustrating.”

In a recent interview with the Kitchissippi Times, former mayor Jim Watson described the city’s public transit woes as “a frustrating experience for everyone,” while current mayor Mark Sutcliffe went one step further, sort of, saying he found it “incredibly frustrating.”

I’m sensing a pattern here.

Transit riders, meanwhile, agree that things are frustrating. But most of them, or at least those with whom I spoke on Tuesday, wouldn’t stop there. In fact, you don’t have to talk with very many before you find yourself compiling a decent-sized thesaurus entry to describe the public’s irritation.

Eunnaro Cho, whose daily commute to Tunney’s Pasture from Centretown usually takes 30 minutes, said she couldn’t give an accurate estimate of how long it took these days because the service was so unreliable. “Today was pretty good because they started running the R1 Express, but other days it’s been an hour. And sometimes I just end up waiting for the bus that never comes.

“It’s beyond frustrating,” she added. “We’re beyond the point of disappointment. It’s ridiculous, and we feel helpless.”

Conrad Uniacke added his own transit trifecta: “It’s embarrassing, appalling and a shit-show,” he said. And Uniacke doesn’t even use the LRT portion of Ottawa’s public transit system.

“It’s internationally embarrassing,” he added. “I have friends around the world who say, ‘Oh, yeah. We hear about you guys and your wonderful transit system that doesn’t work.’”

Uniacke lives in Kanata South and works at Tunney’s Pasture, so, when he does take public transit, an option he says he’s increasingly disinclined to choose, especially over the past two weeks, it’s all by bus. But, with R1 replacement bus service adversely affecting other regular bus routes, he won’t take the chance.

“I would take a bus,” he noted, “because it goes right by my door and drops me off here at Tunney’s. So I would take it normally, if I could trust it. It’s all a matter of trust.”

Uniacke listed other cities where he’s ridden LRT without incident, including London, Toronto, Seoul, Washington, New York, Edmonton and Vancouver, before another word for the Ottawa Light Rail Thesaurus popped into his head. “Catastrophic,” he said. “The failures of implementing a system in the nation’s capital have been catastrophic.”

Marc Plamondon, meanwhile, hopped outside the Tunney’s Pasture station for a quick smoke before returning to catch a bus to work. Who could blame him? He lives in Orléans and works as a chef at the Canadian Tire Centre. It’s normally about a 75-minute one-way trip, but during the LRT shutdown has taken as long as three hours each way.

“So some days I’ve spent six hours on the bus,” he said. “I’ve been reading a lot of books, but I have no other choice. An Uber would be $40, one way, so I’m not doing that.

“It’s frustrating, and expensive as well,” he added. “I’m paying $125 a month to spend six hours a day on the bus? It’s bullshit. It’s chaos.”

One woman I spoke with, meanwhile, who asked that her name not be published, said she figured it may simply be time for her to learn to drive a car.

A Hintonburg resident, she works at three music schools: one downtown, one in the west end and one in the east. What should be a 45-minute commute home from the east end has taken two and a half hours during the LRT shutdown.

“I would use darker words than frustrating,” she said. “My husband lost his job because of this because he couldn’t get to work on time.”

She explained that, because the R1 replacement service was pulling drivers from regular routes and canceling some of those trips, the bus that her husband, who works in metal fabrication, usually takes at 6 a.m. wasn’t available.

“It’s f—ing annoying. It’s disorganized, unbelievable. The city and OC Transpo, they don’t care. Nobody gives a damn about the public. This is what it feels like.

“I’m sort of stuck with what OC Transpo is feeding us right now,” she added. “I guess I’ve got to learn how to drive. That’s kind of my only option.”

Stories like these are remarkable not just for how much people are affected by the LRT failure, but also because they seem all too common. When I interviewed riders earlier in this shutdown, I met a woman who failed to get a work contract after she arrived late for a meeting with a potential client. This time I met a woman whose husband lost his job.

Frustrating doesn’t begin to aptly describe it.

https://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-new...ries-for-the-ottawa-light-rail-thesaurus
     
     
  #16945  
Old Posted Aug 3, 2023, 1:24 PM
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Just read the stories about the newly opened REM. They have buses and drivers on standby by design in case REM shuts down (which it has).

Ottawa had R1 planned since 2019, but did not have buses or drivers available without removing service (randomly) from the rest of the bus network. The end result is an unreliable transit network. What was worse, the city sold off buses within days of the opening of Confed Line and offered packages that had too many drivers leave the transit system. We have had a driver shortage ever since.

Given the current situation, the Phase 2 opening while exciting is also scary. How do we maintain any semblance of transit service if Phase 2 shuts down? I have said this before Phase 1 opened, that we do not have enough built-in redundancy. Too much of our transit system is dependent on just one line. If it goes down, then what? The above article gives us an indication of real life impacts. When I first brought up lack of redundancy, it was only theoretical. It is now reality.

This really points to how crucial it is to find a permanent solution now. The current problems are not sustainable when Phase 2 opens. We cannot have the full Confed Line shutting down at that time. It is also time to consider a few more bus routes that run into downtown, perhaps express routes to provide a bit of every day redundancy. For example, extending Route 97 and 85 into downtown like they used to.

Last edited by lrt's friend; Aug 3, 2023 at 1:52 PM.
     
     
  #16946  
Old Posted Aug 3, 2023, 2:38 PM
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Originally Posted by lrt's friend View Post
Ottawa had R1 planned since 2019, but did not have buses or drivers available without removing service (randomly) from the rest of the bus network. The end result is an unreliable transit network. What was worse, the city sold off buses within days of the opening of Confed Line and offered packages that had too many drivers leave the transit system. We have had a driver shortage ever since.
That was the plan, but I don't think it materialized that quickly or to the levels they were planning. They kept a fleet of buses on standby complete with R1 branding in the Baseball stadium parking lot for quite awhile during the initial rough phases.
     
     
  #16947  
Old Posted Aug 3, 2023, 2:53 PM
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That was the plan, but I don't think it materialized that quickly or to the levels they were planning. They kept a fleet of buses on standby complete with R1 branding in the Baseball stadium parking lot for quite awhile during the initial rough phases.
Agreed. It also isn't clear if Montreal plans to keep the busses on reserve in perpetuity or if it is just to get through their teething pains.
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  #16948  
Old Posted Aug 3, 2023, 3:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lrt's friend View Post
Just read the stories about the newly opened REM. They have buses and drivers on standby by design in case REM shuts down (which it has).

Ottawa had R1 planned since 2019, but did not have buses or drivers available without removing service (randomly) from the rest of the bus network. The end result is an unreliable transit network. What was worse, the city sold off buses within days of the opening of Confed Line and offered packages that had too many drivers leave the transit system. We have had a driver shortage ever since.

Given the current situation, the Phase 2 opening while exciting is also scary. How do we maintain any semblance of transit service if Phase 2 shuts down? I have said this before Phase 1 opened, that we do not have enough built-in redundancy. Too much of our transit system is dependent on just one line. If it goes down, then what? The above article gives us an indication of real life impacts. When I first brought up lack of redundancy, it was only theoretical. It is now reality.

This really points to how crucial it is to find a permanent solution now. The current problems are not sustainable when Phase 2 opens. We cannot have the full Confed Line shutting down at that time. It is also time to consider a few more bus routes that run into downtown, perhaps express routes to provide a bit of every day redundancy. For example, extending Route 97 and 85 into downtown like they used to.
Worse, OC delivered pink slips before the system was even open. They just assumed the delivery dates RTG gave them was correct, even though it was a moving target. The transition was extremally miss-managed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by llatch View Post
That was the plan, but I don't think it materialized that quickly or to the levels they were planning. They kept a fleet of buses on standby complete with R1 branding in the Baseball stadium parking lot for quite awhile during the initial rough phases.
Took them months to figure that out. Don't know for sure, but even that probably bled regular service as well.

Props to them for figuring out the R1Xpress and ParaR1, years later than they should, but it's still unacceptable that we need to drain regular service to provide R1.

I would hope that they learn from Stage 1 when Stage 2 gradually opens, keeping their drivers and buses (though we're still seeing fire sales of older buses to this day, and layoffs of maintenance staff).

On redundancy, Carling and Baseline would go a long way, but the City and politicians continue today their feet on these.
     
     
  #16949  
Old Posted Aug 3, 2023, 4:03 PM
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Low-floor LRT was partially due to the possibility of a shared street system in the burbs, but we've seen in Edmonton and Calgary (amongst others) that high floor LRT can run on the street as well. Mostly, the City was just obsessed about low-floor LRT, they absolutely wanted that because "Ottawa's too small for a metro", and no one could convince them otherwise.
Hmmm, I was under the impression that low floor meant accessible and so they didn't have to invest in improvements/expansion of ParaTranspo and could argue that the money not invested in Para was actually not needed because the LRT would provide transit for those with mobility devices.
     
     
  #16950  
Old Posted Aug 3, 2023, 4:12 PM
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Hmmm, I was under the impression that low floor meant accessible and so they didn't have to invest in improvements/expansion of ParaTranspo and could argue that the money not invested in Para was actually not needed because the LRT would provide transit for those with mobility devices.
High floor can also be accessible if the platform height matches the floor height. Low floor is only needed for accessibility if you want to reuse standard city sidewalks.
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  #16951  
Old Posted Aug 3, 2023, 4:13 PM
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Originally Posted by SidetrackedSue View Post
Hmmm, I was under the impression that low floor meant accessible and so they didn't have to invest in improvements/expansion of ParaTranspo and could argue that the money not invested in Para was actually not needed because the LRT would provide transit for those with mobility devices.
Low floor or high floor irrelevant to user experience in purpose built stations. They simply build platforms for high floor metros. On streets low floor trams would be more accessible than high floor with stairs (if they even build these anymore) but we are using them only on grade separated with full stations anyway.
     
     
  #16952  
Old Posted Aug 3, 2023, 4:16 PM
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Low floor or high floor irrelevant to user experience in purpose built stations. They simply build platforms for high floor metros. On streets low floor trams would be more accessible than high floor with stairs (if they even build these anymore) but we are using them only on grade separated with full stations anyway.
They do!


Siemens S200 Doors Open in the San Francisco Evening

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  #16953  
Old Posted Aug 3, 2023, 4:40 PM
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Look at those trains carefully, they have steps.
     
     
  #16954  
Old Posted Aug 3, 2023, 4:44 PM
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Worse, OC delivered pink slips before the system was even open. They just assumed the delivery dates RTG gave them was correct, even though it was a moving target. The transition was extremally miss-managed.



Took them months to figure that out. Don't know for sure, but even that probably bled regular service as well.

Props to them for figuring out the R1Xpress and ParaR1, years later than they should, but it's still unacceptable that we need to drain regular service to provide R1.

I would hope that they learn from Stage 1 when Stage 2 gradually opens, keeping their drivers and buses (though we're still seeing fire sales of older buses to this day, and layoffs of maintenance staff).

On redundancy, Carling and Baseline would go a long way, but the City and politicians continue today their feet on these.
Carling and Baseline don't really add redundancy because they just replace existing bus routes, and neither are designed to access downtown. In other words, they both are simply feeders for Confed and Trillium Lines. If the Carling Line went into downtown, or the Baseline Line went to Blair or further, then we would see some redundancy.
     
     
  #16955  
Old Posted Aug 3, 2023, 4:58 PM
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Originally Posted by lrt's friend View Post
Look at those trains carefully, they have steps.
Oh could read that both ways.

Here is Denver's R-Line which is a mishmash of design. Even low floor trains would require special accessible ramps at many stations and here is a special ramp for level access.
https://www.google.ca/maps/@39.7353538,-...u1rz8i7Y14Q!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu
     
     
  #16956  
Old Posted Aug 3, 2023, 4:59 PM
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Originally Posted by SidetrackedSue View Post
Hmmm, I was under the impression that low floor meant accessible and so they didn't have to invest in improvements/expansion of ParaTranspo and could argue that the money not invested in Para was actually not needed because the LRT would provide transit for those with mobility devices.
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Originally Posted by roger1818 View Post
High floor can also be accessible if the platform height matches the floor height. Low floor is only needed for accessibility if you want to reuse standard city sidewalks.
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Originally Posted by YOWetal View Post
Low floor or high floor irrelevant to user experience in purpose built stations. They simply build platforms for high floor metros. On streets low floor trams would be more accessible than high floor with stairs (if they even build these anymore) but we are using them only on grade separated with full stations anyway.
With that, the City still tried to sell low-floor as more "accessible", even though that is complete B.S. If anything, it's less accessible because of narrow aisles and bumps.

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Originally Posted by lrt's friend View Post
Carling and Baseline don't really add redundancy because they just replace existing bus routes, and neither are designed to access downtown. In other words, they both are simply feeders for Confed and Trillium Lines. If the Carling Line went into downtown, or the Baseline Line went to Blair or further, then we would see some redundancy.
They would offer some redundancy. By having reliable and frequent bus routes on Carling and Baseline, fewer people would have to be bused to the Confederation Line. If someone from Algonquin needed to go home along the SE Transitway, but Line 1 was out, they could use Baseline, which would be a bit slower, but still a good option. Or if someone who lives near LF is going to the Civic or the Adult High School, they would have the option of Line 1 to Bayview and Line 2 to Dow's (or Croso) OR Carling (and Line 2), instead of Line 1/2.

So yeah, they would provide some redundancy. Not as good as an actual line that goes Downtown, but for any trip not Downtown. It would also relieve R1s by not having everyone use it if they don't need to.
     
     
  #16957  
Old Posted Aug 3, 2023, 5:02 PM
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Carling and Baseline don't really add redundancy because they just replace existing bus routes, and neither are designed to access downtown. In other words, they both are simply feeders for Confed and Trillium Lines. If the Carling Line went into downtown, or the Baseline Line went to Blair or further, then we would see some redundancy.
Baseline BRT will likely go to Hurdman, at least on one branch (there will likely be another branch that continues on Hurdman/Walkley).
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  #16958  
Old Posted Aug 3, 2023, 5:04 PM
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Didn't the Baseline BRT plans go Hurdman to Bayshore?
     
     
  #16959  
Old Posted Aug 3, 2023, 5:16 PM
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Didn't the Baseline BRT plans go Hurdman to Bayshore?
That's the idea.

Here's another idea... why the frig would we even need redundancy if we had a transit system that worked?

Literally sounds like the equivalent of just one more lane bro.

This is only a complicated matter because we made it so.
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  #16960  
Old Posted Aug 3, 2023, 6:07 PM
Uhuniau Uhuniau is offline
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Baseline BRT will likely go to Hurdman, at least on one branch (there will likely be another branch that continues on Hurdman/Walkley).
It really ought to continue past Hurdman as well.
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