Confederation Line (Stage 1) | In Service 1.0

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Nonsense. The industry consultation they had, that I attended (open to the public), back in 2008 or thereabouts, has bidders who recommended a light metro. Kinkisharyo specifically had a recommendation that was a lot like the REM. The idea that they didn't know what could be done is nonsense. They just automatically dismissed it as overkill for Ottawa. Yet, we're probably going to end up spending nearly as much in the end to get a much worse product. It's not just the politicians of the city. The public here is routinely ignorant and still acts like Ottawa is a mid size metro that doesn't need proper rail. That enables politicians to cheap out.

Having witnessed those consultations and the sheer ignorant public comments in them, is why I'm such a prickly urbanist. The staunch suburban mindset needs to be balanced.

We got what we deserved with all the political interference that occurred between 2006 and 2010 which resulted in underfunding of the Confed Line.

We also bit off more than this city could handle with Phase 1 designed to end all commuter service in one step.

This was never about improving transit in Ottawa, which is shocking. It was more about getting rid of as many buses as possible. Trains designed to run slower than the buses that they replaced should have been a big red flag, but the politicians never understood this when they suggested a 15 minute time saving that was never in the cards. The politicians who approved the Confed Line never understood the capabilities or the lack of same when they approved the design including the trains chosen.

I expect that Phase 2 of the Trillium Line will be a shambles as well.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by phil235

Hopefully not for long. I’d have much higher hopes for anything inside the greenbelt than I would for those stations on the West Island or in the median of the 10.

Ok, but REM will presumably attract TOD in Montreal as well.

[SL123]

Alstom strikes again?? The REM broke down this morning on the first official day, during Rush hour.


GRAND MONTRÉAL
Le REM en panne au premier jour, en pleine heure de pointe

https://www.lapresse.ca/actualites/grand...emier-jour-en-pleine-heure-de-pointe.php

[phil235]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Ok, but REM will presumably attract TOD in Montreal as well.

I'm sure that is the hope, but the massive elevated guideway and elevated stations won't attract that same kind of urban development that the O-Train will, as our stations are much more integrated/integratable into the urban fabric. You can conceivably get an island of towers around the station in the corner of the Fairview Pointe Claire parking lot (likely sitting on 6 stories of above ground parking so no one has to live under the tracks), but everyone else will be driving or taking the bus to the station.

[rakerman]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Nonsense. The industry consultation they had, that I attended (open to the public), back in 2008 or thereabouts, has bidders who recommended a light metro. Kinkisharyo specifically had a recommendation that was a lot like the REM. The idea that they didn't know what could be done is nonsense. They just automatically dismissed it as overkill for Ottawa. ....

It was in 2009. It was called the Light Rail Transit (LRT) Technology Forum. The entire website is gone now.

Here's the main page from the Internet Archive.

https://web.archive.org/web/201111020316...nts/public_consult/tmp/lrt/index_en.html

It's really unfortunate that the full presentations aren't online. I've only been able to find Kinkisharyo in the Internet Archive, but without the audio it's hard to tell what they're recommending just from the deck itself.

https://web.archive.org/web/200912290146...ublic_consult/tmp/lrt/kinkisharyo_en.pdf

There are fragments of the Alstom, Bombardier and City of Toronto presentations online. Ottawa was asking for over 20,000 passengers per hour per direction (pphpd) and Alstom, Bombardier and the City of Toronto all indicate light metro above 20,000 pphpd. Light rail (the kind of vehicles Ottawa specified and purchased) tops out around 10,000 to 12,000 pphpd in their three presentations.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by phil235

Hopefully not for long. I’d have much higher hopes for anything inside the greenbelt than I would for those stations on the West Island or in the median of the 10.

The 10 ones look very similar to the Orleans stations. Malls or SFH with TOD potential close to the stations and highways. Several West Island stops are surrounded by empty land which gives them huge TOD potential. The South Shore stops are also 15-20 minutes from downtown which is even more impressive in Montreal.

Originally Posted by phil235

I'm sure that is the hope, but the massive elevated guideway and elevated stations won't attract that same kind of urban development that the O-Train will, as our stations are much more integrated/integratable into the urban fabric. You can conceivably get an island of towers around the station in the corner of the Fairview Pointe Claire parking lot (likely sitting on 6 stories of above ground parking so no one has to live under the tracks), but everyone else will be driving or taking the bus to the station.

I am not sure why we have such a weird fear of elevated trains. These are not the E train in Queens. They are modern clean and quiet LRT. They can absolutely be integrated and integrated well into development. If suburban Miami can do it I am sure Montreal can.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Coconu...!4d-80.2388589!16zL20vMDQxdGtz?entry=ttu

[phil235]

[QUOTE=YOWetal;10003538]The 10 ones look very similar to the Orleans stations. Malls or SFH with TOD potential close to the stations and highways. Several West Island stops are surrounded by empty land which gives them huge TOD potential. The South Shore stops are also 15-20 minutes from downtown which is even more impressive in Montreal.[QUOTE]

Yeah, I did say inside the greenbelt. The ones on the 10 are similar to Orleans, but they have far more big box/low density retail around them.

I am not sure why we have such a weird fear of elevated trains. These are not the E train in Queens. They are modern clean and quiet LRT. They can absolutely be integrated and integrated well into development. If suburban Miami can do it I am sure Montreal can.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Coconu...!4d-80.2388589!16zL20vMDQxdGtz?entry=ttu

I'm not sure if you have seen the Miami line in real life, but it's hardly a model for good urban development. It's in a sea of low-density development and it runs along a classic stroad. It will be very difficult to integrate into the kind of urban development that we want to see inside the greenbelt.

Elevated trains may be modern, but they still require massive concrete structures that loom over everything around them. The REM is particularly high (including the stations) and will by no means be easy to integrate into good urban developments. Maybe if you have an example of something similar being integrated into a truly urban neighbourhood I would be convinced, but the Miami example ain't it. The Skytrain in Vancouver may be closer, but the truly urban parts aren't above ground and the elevated urban stations are much lower than the REM.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by phil235

I'm not sure if you have seen the Miami line in real life, but it's hardly a model for good urban development. It's in a sea of low-density development and it runs along a classic stroad. It will be very difficult to integrate into the kind of urban development that we want to see inside the greenbelt.

Elevated trains may be modern, but they still require massive concrete structures that loom over everything around them. The REM is particularly high (including the stations) and will by no means be easy to integrate into good urban developments. Maybe if you have an example of something similar being integrated into a truly urban neighbourhood I would be convinced, but the Miami example ain't it. The Skytrain in Vancouver may be closer, but the truly urban parts aren't above ground and the elevated urban stations are much lower than the REM.

Yes many of the Miami stations are well surrounded by very suburban housing but look at the photo I sent. They are building 3 towers right next to the station. The downtown ones have new buildings where you can see into people's living rooms and even buildings built around the trains. Meanwhile Miami isn't a commute to downtown city so any TOD is impressive. There are totally other stops next to autobody shops still so it certainly varies.

Dubai built there above ground next to the highway which filled in nicely but granted a totally different context and it probably would have happened anyway. More relevant Amsterdam has the same train as Montreal and has also seen impressive TOD. Montreal has certainly built some stations in much more far flung locations which will make it more difficult but this is not about the height of the trains.

My point is tunnelling is expensive and a larger network is better. Ottawa didn't need to necessarily spend more money just spend it more wisely. What did we spend to tunnel under Byron Linnear "Park" and what do we get for that?

[phil235]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Yes many of the Miami stations are well surrounded by very suburban housing but look at the photo I sent. They are building 3 towers right next to the station. The downtown ones have new buildings where you can see into people's living rooms and even buildings built around the trains. Meanwhile Miami isn't a commute to downtown city so any TOD is impressive. There are totally other stops next to autobody shops still so it certainly varies.

Dubai built there above ground next to the highway which filled in nicely but granted a totally different context and it probably would have happened anyway. More relevant Amsterdam has the same train as Montreal and has also seen impressive TOD. Montreal has certainly built some stations in much more far flung locations which will make it more difficult but this is not about the height of the trains.

My point is tunnelling is expensive and a larger network is better. Ottawa didn't need to necessarily spend more money just spend it more wisely. What did we spend to tunnel under Byron Linnear "Park" and what do we get for that?

Point taken. I'm not advocating for subways everywhere, but in true urban neighbourhoods, they are much more conducive to real urban growth. And in my opinion, something like the O-Train trench along Scott is preferable to an elevated line. Plus you can cover it at some point in the future when it makes sense.

TOD is positive, but it's not all created equal. If you have a cluster of big towers at a station, but nothing pedestrian-friendly around, you are still going to have a lot of driving happening. I suspect that is the best you'll see around the REM stations on the West Island because of how they have been built.

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by phil235

Point taken. I'm not advocating for subways everywhere, but in true urban neighbourhoods, they are much more conducive to real urban growth. And in my opinion, something like the O-Train trench along Scott is preferable to an elevated line. Plus you can cover it at some point in the future when it makes sense.

TOD is positive, but it's not all created equal. If you have a cluster of big towers at a station, but nothing pedestrian-friendly around, you are still going to have a lot of driving happening. I suspect that is the best you'll see around the REM stations on the West Island because of how they have been built.

Given the highly permissive zoning, and that the consortium captures property tax near REM stations as income, the economic incentives around REM stations will out compete a lot of other potential development areas in Montreal, where projects are becoming less economic due to rising development taxes, fees, and requirements.

REM having secured a permissive regulatory environment is the biggest win for TOD in the country perhaps ever. The cluster of towers will become the pedestrian friendly area, it just needs to be enough. Articles I've read target new builds at 5,000 units PER STATION.

That is enough to get a grocery store, all sorts of neighbourhood retail and things to do.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

Given the highly permissive zoning, and that the consortium captures property tax near REM stations as income, the economic incentives around REM stations will out compete a lot of other potential development areas in Montreal, where projects are becoming less economic due to rising development taxes, fees, and requirements.

REM having secured a permissive regulatory environment is the biggest win for TOD in the country perhaps ever. The cluster of towers will become the pedestrian friendly area, it just needs to be enough. Articles I've read target new builds at 5,000 units PER STATION.

That is enough to get a grocery store, all sorts of neighbourhood retail and things to do.

No doubt we'll see things happening, as the business case for the REM depends on that development. I just hope that you are right about it becoming pedestrian-friendly, and that it actually integrates into the urban area. I have my doubts about that part, as there is less incentive for that to happen.

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by phil235

No doubt we'll see things happening, as the business case for the REM depends on that development. I just hope that you are right about it becoming pedestrian-friendly, and that it actually integrates into the urban area. I have my doubts about that part, as there is less incentive for that to happen.

take a look at this area near one station:
https://www.google.ca/maps/@45.4482285,-...xgJ5VTHepAQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu

Fortunately with such expansive powers, they can push development station by station to get critical mass instead of one tower which sits alone for 5 years near each station.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

take a look at this area near one station:
https://www.google.ca/maps/@45.4482285,-...xgJ5VTHepAQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu

Fortunately with such expansive powers, they can push development station by station to get critical mass instead of one tower which sits alone for 5 years near each station.

That is really positive. I hadn't seen the ground level view there - looks like it has real potential. It's amazing how much development has popped up around the 10-30 interchange. Of course the other side of the highway will be a challenge however, given the current pattern of development (which, in fairness, began long before the REM was announced).

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by SL123

Alstom strikes again?? The REM broke down this morning on the first official day, during Rush hour.


GRAND MONTRÉAL
Le REM en panne au premier jour, en pleine heure de pointe

https://www.lapresse.ca/actualites/grand...emier-jour-en-pleine-heure-de-pointe.php

https://globalnews.ca/news/9867196/montreal-rem-launch-glitch/

[lrt's friend]

R1 Express is so fast, it completes the trip from Blair to downtown faster than the train when it runs. Hmmmm. Just as I said, we built a train that runs slower than the buses that it replaced.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

R1 Express is so fast, it completes the trip from Blair to downtown faster than the train when it runs. Hmmmm. Just as I said, we built a train that runs slower than the buses that it replaced.

Because there's no traffic. You can take any rapid transit line anywhere in the world and if there's no traffic you can beat it in a car.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

Because there's no traffic. You can take any rapid transit line anywhere in the world and if there's no traffic you can beat it in a car.

Oh, no traffic, which means that nobody is going downtown.

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

R1 Express is so fast, it completes the trip from Blair to downtown faster than the train when it runs. Hmmmm. Just as I said, we built a train that runs slower than the buses that it replaced.

Waterloo did this but did it intentionally!

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

We got what we deserved with all the political interference that occurred between 2006 and 2010 which resulted in underfunding of the Confed Line.

I know this is all about bitter spite for you, but the previous project was even further away from the REM standard than the Confederation Line. No grade separation. Smaller trains and smaller stations. I fail to see how any of that would have been better.

I'll add that the previous LRT project is actually part of the problem. All discussion got centered on LRT as the solution. What was supposed to be a clean slate and reboot just became LRT 2.0. And maybe this wouldn't have happened if we didn't propose replacing a suburban rail line with LRT to begin with.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

R1 Express is so fast, it completes the trip from Blair to downtown faster than the train when it runs. Hmmmm. Just as I said, we built a train that runs slower than the buses that it replaced.

Any service is going to be faster if you skip stops. Let's see how you like it if the Trillium stop near you gets picked to be bypassed. I get why they did it, but it doesn't really speak much to the performance of the Confederation Line.

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Oh, no traffic, which means that nobody is going downtown.

Cool. So you should be okay with pedestrianizing Bank St then right? Nobody is going downtown after all?

Your views are always all over the place and ridiculously filled with grievance and glee. Hard to see you as a "friend" to LRT. Apparently the only LRT you're a friend to, is one that would come to your front door.