The Great Canadian Transit Thread

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by someone123

I am open to having my mind changed on this but I have always thought that Montreal has the best and most coherent transit system in Canada and the REM just makes the current gap wider as it's better than the expansions underway in Toronto or Vancouver.

Debatable. I think RER + Ontario Line + Scarborough and Yonge Subway extensions + all the LRTs are about to substantially change GTA transit over a decade or so.

[goodgrowth]

Feel like REM just confirms elevated rail is best?

Easier to construct, higher speeds, no potential for accidents with vehicles....

[niwell]

I feel like RER expansion has gone a bit under the radar even on this site - it will really be transformative. Problem is, it’s not a singular sexy project, but rather massive number of incremental infrastructure improvements. Many of which are already complete. Though this also may be part of the reason it’s survived a change in government! Even as it stands the Lakeshore line with 7 day 30 min minimum frequency is probably the best commuter line in Canada - that’s only going to improve.

I’m being a bit facetious about the labour stuff but I really don’t get the fetishization of driverless tech. It makes sense for new lines of a certain type so when starting from scratch go for it, but I don’t see the need to retrofit legacy systems just for the sake of it. The TTC upgraded line 1 with ATC so it’s basically at this state and only has operator on board, which given vehicle capacity I would still prefer. Also has peak frequencies of as little as 90 seconds, though due to vehicle size and dwell time is more practically 2 mins.

[niwell]

Originally Posted by goodgrowth

Feel like REM just confirms elevated rail is best?

Easier to construct, higher speeds, no potential for accidents with vehicles....

Everything is corridor specific - it works in some contexts but not others where tunnelling is likely best. Low capacity corridors are still probably fine with surface transit. Elevated transit still isn’t exactly cheap, especially stations.

REM hits a bit of a sweet spot where they were able to utilize some existing corridors and tie them together with relatively little (big emphasis on relative, it’s a huge project) work. It’s the type of project more places should be exploring - not so much in the tech or anything but identifying those opportunities to tie things together. The Ontario line seems to be following some of these principles.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by niwell

I feel like RER expansion has gone a bit under the radar even on this site - it will really be transformative. Problem is, it’s not a singular sexy project, but rather massive number of incremental infrastructure improvements. Many of which are already complete. Though this also may be part of the reason it’s survived a change in government! Even as it stands the Lakeshore line with 7 day 30 min minimum frequency is probably the best commuter line in Canada - that’s only going to improve.

Absolutely. I think a huge part of why RER flies under the radar is because it's progressive improvement. Schedules get better. But otherwise, there's no noticeable change. Once we see electrification, it might actually start to catch attention. Especially when rolling stock changes. Till we actually see home buying and work patterns change taking into account the improved service, I don't think people will fully understand how transformative RER is.

Originally Posted by niwell

I’m being a bit facetious about the labour stuff but I really don’t get the fetishization of driverless tech. It makes sense for new lines of a certain type so when starting from scratch go for it, but I don’t see the need to retrofit legacy systems just for the sake of it. The TTC upgraded line 1 with ATC so it’s basically at this state and only has operator on board, which given vehicle capacity I would still prefer. Also has peak frequencies of as little as 90 seconds, though due to vehicle size and dwell time is more practically 2 mins.

It's not about saving labour. It's about what driverless tech enables. It allows for platform screen doors and tight headways. With a fully enclosed platform and smooth operation, it basically turns a metro into an elevator.

[niwell]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

It's not about saving labour. It's about what driverless tech enables. It allows for platform screen doors and tight headways. With a fully enclosed platform and smooth operation, it basically turns a metro into an elevator.

For sure, just the term “driverless” can be a bit misleading and often cited as a cost saving measure. In reality it’s more about signalling and automatic control that allows these things. The “driver” is now more of an operator to make things are going smoothly. Line 1 of the TTC can accommodate screen doors from a train perspective at this point, and has very minimal headways. The biggest challenge with screen doors I believe is actually ventilation - unlike newer systems the tunnel itself is integral to the ventilation system. This is why cost estimates seem so high.

[ssiguy]

Vancouver is doing well with it's SkyTrain extensions and with it's BRT networks. The problem is it has the odd mentality that they can keep expanding SkyTrain into the hinterlands. Vancouver desperately needs to start building a regional rail system out to the Valley as the SkyTrain is simply too slow for longer journeys.

Calgary is doing with with it's CTrain expansions and BRT networks. I think Calgary's transit doesn't get the respect it is due.

[Truenorth00]

Speed is mostly a function of stop spacing. Want to invest speed in outlying areas? Increase the stop spacing in those parts.

[casper]

Originally Posted by niwell

For sure, just the term “driverless” can be a bit misleading and often cited as a cost saving measure. In reality it’s more about signalling and automatic control that allows these things. The “driver” is now more of an operator to make things are going smoothly. Line 1 of the TTC can accommodate screen doors from a train perspective at this point, and has very minimal headways. The biggest challenge with screen doors I believe is actually ventilation - unlike newer systems the tunnel itself is integral to the ventilation system. This is why cost estimates seem so high.

I interviewed with the Bombardier team that commissions these system back around 2000. I did not end up working for them and never ended up going into the industry so by no means an expert. Back then they had a big OS/2 server that ran the signaling and dispatched the trains. It worked well for Skytrain in Vancouver and other systems around the world.

There is no cab on any of the Skytrain cars. There is a locked cover in the passenger compartment that exposes the controls that you could use to manually drive a train if needed.

Skytrain staff don't drive or surprise individual trains they walk around the stations and sometimes on the trains answering question and dealing with customer service issues.

Key advantage of this in you can dynamically dispatch additional trains if demand suddenly changes. A hockey game ends at a stadium and with in minutes you can have extra trains. Once it is over you can take them back out of service. Spacing between trains can be better optimized.

I was in Toronto last month for a conferance at the fair ground and was staying a bit out of the core. So my commute was on a street car and the subway. I was surprised by how the smoke from the forest fires managed to get into subway tunnels. So, yes I can see ventilation being a problem.

[ssiguy]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Speed is mostly a function of stop spacing. Want to invest speed in outlying areas? Increase the stop spacing in those parts.

Yes, stop spacing matters but if the stops become too far spread than it becomes less effective for the local population and by having lines so long you begin to take the rapid out of rapid transit.

Suburban/regional rail and rapid transit are not the same thing. Can you imagine taking the SkyTrain to Abbotsford everyday? Not only would it take too long but due to the seating you would need hip replacement by the time you arrived and God help you if nature calls. Vancouver needs fast regional transit due to it's endless sprawl into the Valley and Vancouver is at an extreme one end of the Metro instead in the middle of it like most cities.

Vancouver is a spread out city made worse by the fact that it is also a very decentralized one with many working in the Ports, post-secondary, and regional town centres none of which are even close to downtown with the exception of the Broadway Corridor so being able to get to those areas fast, comfortably, and reliably requires regional rail. For some unknown reason this is something Vancouver fails to acknowledge.

[casper]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

Yes, stop spacing matters but if the stops become too far spread than it becomes less effective for the local population and by having lines so long you begin to take the rapid out of rapid transit.

Suburban/regional rail and rapid transit are not the same thing. Can you imagine taking the SkyTrain to Abbotsford everyday? Not only would it take too long but due to the seating you would need hip replacement by the time you arrived and God help you if nature calls. Vancouver needs fast regional transit due to it's endless sprawl into the Valley and Vancouver being at an extreme one end of the Metro instead in the middle of it like most cities.

Vancouver is a spread out city made worse by the fact that it is also a very decentralized one with many working in the Ports, post-secondary, and regional town centres none of which are even close to downtown with the exception of the Broadway Corridor so being able to get to those areas fast, comfortably, and reliably requires regional rail. For some unknown reason this is something Vancouver fails to acknowledge.

I agree it is silly to not focus on lower cost rail options in that area.

Logical thing is to extend West Coast Express to Abbotsford. The tracks are already there. Maybe run one or two commuter rail trains from Abbotsford to Waterfront instead of or in addition to Mission City during rush hours. During the day run a DMU from Abbotsford to Coquitlam center where you have a transfer to Skytrain.

Parallel to that run some DMU along the old interurban from Surrey through Langley and Abbotsford on the way to Chilliwack. Surrey and Langley stops could be structured to provide transfer points on Skytrain.

The tracks are there. At least in the case of the interurban they are owned by the province who retains the right to run passenger service over them.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

Suburban/regional rail and rapid transit are not the same thing. Can you imagine taking the SkyTrain to Abbotsford everyday? Not only would it take too long but due to the seating you would need hip replacement by the time you arrived and God help you if nature calls. Vancouver needs fast regional transit due to it's endless sprawl into the Valley and Vancouver is at an extreme one end of the Metro instead in the middle of it like most cities.

Are there a lot of people commuting from Abbotsford? This seems to me a problem addressed by proper regional bus service.

[Wigs]

Originally Posted by nname

Capacity is not limited to the technology. If you build the platform as long and the train as wide as the TTC subway, then it'll have the same capacity.

It'll probably have even more capacity since it is capable for running more frequent train than the current TTC signaling system.

If you had near unlimited money you can do all sorts of things. SkyTrain will never be what the Toronto or Montreal subways are.

At peak times the Toronto subway runs 6 car trains almost 140m (137.82m) long (compared to the max length of 6 car SkyTrain of 76.2m) with 65 at once on Line 1, with 2 minute intervals. I've seen it in person pre covid (when TTC functioned much better) where the train arrived in 90 seconds, and in less than 30 seconds from doors open to taking off. My friend from Buffalo timed it. I think it was 25-26 seconds.

[Wigs]

from the Q1 2023 APTA ridership report

Montreal Metro 935,200
Toronto subway 862,600
SkyTrain 403,000
CTrain 240,300
ETS LRT 76,500

It should be noted ridership is way down across the board from pre-pandemic times. Toronto and Montreal usually have ridership of over 1M/day with Toronto peaking over 1.5M, Montreal 1.4M, Skytrain has been over 500k, and CTrain over 320k.
https://www.apta.com/research-technical-resources/transit-statistics/ridership-report/

[casper]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Are there a lot of people commuting from Abbotsford? This seems to me a problem addressed by proper regional bus service.

There is a core bus from Longhead Skytrain station into the Fraser Valley (Abbotsford and Chilliwack). It is about 90 minutes end-to-end. Runs every 15 to 30 minutes. There is also some buses from Abbotsford that connect to WestCoast Express trains in Mission City. There may be some other connections I don't know about. As Surrey and the rest of the Fraser Valley grow there are more connections.

Given the housing constraints in Metro Vancouver, the next logical place for more affordable housing to be built in places like Abbotsford. Downtown Abbotsford and Chilliwack have a lot of potential to accommodate affordable higher density housing.

[Changing City]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Are there a lot of people commuting from Abbotsford? This seems to me a problem addressed by proper regional bus service.

The majority of people who live in Abbotsford work in Abbotsford, (over 30,000). About 8,800 commute to Surrey and Langley, neither of which have highly concentrated centres, so most would probably continue to drive even if transit was better. Only 500 commute all the way to Vancouver, so the cost of extending a distant connection to Downtown would be far greater than the ridership would warrant.

Abbotsford would have to contribute financiallyt to any expansion of TransLink beyond Metro Vancouver's border, but there's no indication that's their intention. They looked at it a few years ago, and decided to subsidize a better commuter bus service as you suggest. There have been regular studies of the cost/benefit of a rail service from the GVRD to Chilliwack and/or Abbotsford; none have made any economic sense so far.

WestCoast Express leases track time to operate the trains, and CP are unlikely to want to ever increase that. It has also had by far the lowest return to pre-covid usage - under 50% at the start of the year.

[casper]

Originally Posted by Changing City

The majority of people who live in Abbotsford work in Abbotsford, (over 30,000). About 8,800 commute to Surrey and Langley, neither of which have highly concentrated centres, so most would probably continue to drive even if transit was better. Only 500 commute all the way to Vancouver, so the cost of extending a distant connection to Downtown would be far greater than the ridership would warrant.

Abbotsford would have to contribute financiallyt to any expansion of TransLink beyond Metro Vancouver's border, but there's no indication that's their intention. They looked at it a few years ago, and decided to subsidize a better commuter bus service as you suggest. There have been regular studies of the cost/benefit of a rail service from the GVRD to Chilliwack and/or Abbotsford; none have made any economic sense so far.

WestCoast Express leases track time to operate the trains, and CP are unlikely to want to ever increase that. It has also had by far the lowest return to pre-covid usage - under 50% at the start of the year.

Obviously they would need to pay into it.

I would not focus on commuters from Abbotsford to downtown Vancouver. More about connecting Abbotsford to the existing network. Maybe run one or two trains into downtown Vancouver at the most.

Mission has a population of just over 40,000 and is connected by commuter rail. Abbotsford has a population of over 160,000 and is not.

[Bobert]

Any regional rail out to Abbotsford or Chilliwack would have to be done under BC Transit, as I imagine the Fraser Valley probably wont want to pay the transit fuel taxes levied in Metro Van

[NetMapel]

Originally Posted by casper

There is a core bus from Longhead Skytrain station into the Fraser Valley (Abbotsford and Chilliwack). It is about 90 minutes end-to-end. Runs every 15 to 30 minutes. There is also some buses from Abbotsford that connect to WestCoast Express trains in Mission City. There may be some other connections I don't know about. As Surrey and the rest of the Fraser Valley grow there are more connections.

Given the housing constraints in Metro Vancouver, the next logical place for more affordable housing to be built in places like Abbotsford. Downtown Abbotsford and Chilliwack have a lot of potential to accommodate affordable higher density housing.

I absolutely think we need better connections to places like Abbotsford and Chilliwack. However, I would say the housing supply constraints should not mean sprawling more towards those places. We have massive amount of single family houses and their associated zones in GVRD. Getting rid of those first and get rid of parking minimums should be our first priority to begin increasing our housing supplies. We must do everything we can to not perpetuate the destructive suburban sprawling trend. We must densify upward and not outward and provide better public transit to the people of GVRD. We must reduce our complete dependency on car infrastructure in favour of human infrastructure.

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

And let's not forget: in addition to being built fast, and a great service, taxpayers aren't even funding all of it. The private owner is footing half the construction cost.

Montreal easily wins the gold medal on this one.

Hahahahaha.

Yeah, no.

The entire thing is tax increment financed. Basically property taxes in the region will pay for it over the next 100 years.