YVR Airport & Sea Island Developments Discussion

[Denscity]

Thanks Johnny you rock as always.

[hehehe]

I'm surprised it took AI this long to come to YVR. I would've expected them to start YVR a few years ago.
Sometime after the pandemic I think AC could start a YVR-MNL flight.

[thenoflyzone]

Originally Posted by micmiko

I guess I wasn't hyperbolic enough, I should have mentioned that I thought YVR is now out of the top 10 from the way some posters are insinuating.

It wasn't that long ago when YVR was third in total international passengers (2012?), and it won't come as a shock to anyone when YVR regains second place once the pandemic fully recovers.

Thanks @Johnny Aussie for providing actually useful and relevant info related to YVR. To reiterate, if I wanted to find out how other airports are doing relative to YVR, I would visit the Canadian Airport Thread in the Canada forum.

YVR was never 3rd. Always second (at least when you considered intl+transborder).

And YUL was well on its way to overtake YVR in terms of international+transborder pax anyways. The pandemic only accelerated that process.

The gap is now 50% in favor or YUL. That's pretty significant, considering the gap was in YVR's favor by 5% in 2019.

China doesn't seem too eager to open up its borders, and as long as that's the case, YVR will suffer. The cruise industry being on it's knees is another blow against YVR. That traffic wont be rebounding for a while either. You can keep counting all the TPAC planes you want. A lot of it is cargo.

AC launched a plethora of long haul routes out of YYZ and YUL during the pandemic. What have they done out of YVR? Nada.....
But keep seeing things through your rose colored glasses.

P.S I'm hard on every airport, including my own. I talk about my airports' shortcomings quite regularly in fact. I also praise other airports when the numbers they post are impressive. Unfortunately, as far as numbers go, at least by comparison, YVR's intl numbers aren't that great this year. If you can't hear it, that's your problem.

[nname]

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone

AC launched a plethora of long haul routes out of YYZ and YUL during the pandemic. What have they done out of YVR? Nada.....

Want to talk about long-haul route cancellation then...? Yeah, don't forget about Rouge

[nname]

Originally Posted by hehehe

I'm surprised it took AI this long to come to YVR. I would've expected them to start YVR a few years ago.
Sometime after the pandemic I think AC could start a YVR-MNL flight.

Well, AC doesn't have that many planes to start new routes. The current fleet is enough to run their current schedule for S22, but not much more. Once the Asian routes are coming back, it will probably require most of the 3x 787s they just ordered. So unless they reduce or cancel some services or convert shorter routes to 7M8, there aren't that much resource left to run this kind of long and thin routes...

Note, the following routes are still scheduled in 2023 so they are more likely to come back:
YVR-PEK
YYZ-PEK
YUL-PVG
YVR-BNE
YVR-AKL (winter seasonal)

So yeah, that requires about 5 of the 3 new planes... Anything else is likely gone...

[hehehe]

Originally Posted by nname

Well, AC doesn't have that many planes to start new routes. The current fleet is enough to run their current schedule for S22, but not much more. Once the Asian routes are coming back, it will probably require most of the 3x 787s they just ordered. So unless they reduce or cancel some services or convert shorter routes to 7M8, there aren't that much resource left to run this kind of long and thin routes...

Note, the following routes are still scheduled in 2023 so they are more likely to come back:
YVR-PEK
YYZ-PEK
YUL-PVG
YVR-BNE
YVR-AKL (winter seasonal)

So yeah, that requires about 5 of the 3 new planes... Anything else is likely gone...

Thank you for this! China flights will definitely come back by S23, but I could see YUL-PVG being axed to keep the YVR-PEK flight going.

[Johnny Aussie]

Any route to DEL requires a large VFR and/or decent catchment with connections.
Despite YVR having a huge South Asian community it took a long time!
Market conditions only recently would have been strong enough.
Same thing Downunder QF has launched DEL from both SYD and MEL - a similar pattern/demographic here too. And Air India one of the first to resume flights (again both SYD and MEL).

[micmiko]

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone

YVR was never 3rd. Always second (at least when you considered intl+transborder).

And YUL was well on its way to overtake YVR in terms of international+transborder pax anyways. The pandemic only accelerated that process.

The gap is now 50% in favor or YUL. That's pretty significant, considering the gap was in YVR's favor by 5% in 2019.

Since you like to cherrypick statistics to highlight shortcomings: YUL's total int'l pax in 2012 was 8,287,969 vs YVR's 8,199,365. This is easily searchable, it's the same whether you use Statcan or the airport authority's own numbers.

The moral of the story is that airports grow and shrink. YVR was third in the past and outgrew other airports within the past 10 years. Using pandemic numbers as some final indictment on YVR's future is clearly meaningless, but if you like seeing the glass half empty each day, that's your problem.

P.S I'm hard on every airport, including my own. I talk about my airports' shortcomings quite regularly in fact. I also praise other airports when the numbers they post are impressive. Unfortunately, as far as numbers go, at least by comparison, YVR's intl numbers aren't that great this year. If you can't hear it, that's your problem.

The problem isn't that YVR has shortcomings, which you like to continually bring up, but that comparing YUL or any other airport to YVR in the YVR thread achieves nothing useful. I am not going to base my flying decisions when I fly out of YVR on whether YUL has more international passengers, I am going to base it on which destinations YVR flies to and what amenities YVR offers. If I am flying internationally, I will 99% of the time fly out of YVR, YYZ or another non-Canadian international airport. I (and the majority of British Columbians) couldn't care less about any flights out of YUL unless I am flying specifically to Quebec.

It is really baffling how that is hard for some to understand. Does airport X coming in second or third really help you sleep at night?

Anyways, back to the YVR updates!

[casper]

Originally Posted by micmiko

Since you like to cherrypick statistics to highlight shortcomings: YUL's total int'l pax in 2012 was 8,287,969 vs YVR's 8,199,365. This is easily searchable, it's the same whether you use Statcan or the airport authority's own numbers.

The moral of the story is that airports grow and shrink. YVR was third in the past and outgrew other airports within the past 10 years. Using pandemic numbers as some final indictment on YVR's future is clearly meaningless, but if you like seeing the glass half empty each day, that's your problem.



The problem isn't that YVR has shortcomings, which you like to continually bring up, but that comparing YUL or any other airport to YVR in the YVR thread achieves nothing useful. I am not going to base my flying decisions when I fly out of YVR on whether YUL has more international passengers, I am going to base it on which destinations YVR flies to and what amenities YVR offers. If I am flying internationally, I will 99% of the time fly out of YVR, YYZ or another non-Canadian international airport. I (and the majority of British Columbians) couldn't care less about any flights out of YUL unless I am flying specifically to Quebec.

It is really baffling how that is hard for some to understand. Does airport X coming in second or third really help you sleep at night?

Anyways, back to the YVR updates!

These airport comparison tend to miss the mark. The numbers don't matter to an air traveler. What matters is the traveler experience and the network you have access to. So if we want to do a comparison.....

Lounges - YVR has better lounge options in both the international, trans-boarder and domestic area.

Art work and engaging environments - YVR has better art work hands down. From fish tanks to play stations, YVR is just a more interesting airport to be a passenger at.

Transit - YVR has direct transit. YUL is on the way soon to have a direct metro connection.

Ground Transportation - YVR was late to the Uber thing, but now has a good setup. YUL was early to Uber, then decided they did not like Uber, then changed their mind.

Asia connections - YVR is much better.

European connections - Hands down YUL.

Food - Very subjective. I give this one to YUL for in-terminal and on-property. Off property YUL would also have it if they still had Le Beefteque on Cote-de-Liesse. However it is closed. With it gone, there is no reason to stay at any hotels near the airport . YVR has lots of Asian and seafood restaurants off property, and argument could be made. Even two on-property establishments with water side patios. It tough, but I will give to YUL.

Security - No question YVR is more friendly. The only airport where my half-empty 120 mL toothpaste has ever been confiscated in YUL. We don't need CASTA to be that diligent.

There you go YVR wins.

[Johnny Aussie]

^ and for a relatively small population centre on the far flung West Coast of North America YVR actually does have a decent amount of service to Europe.
Of course YVR is Asia Pacific centric but not a bad list of services to Europe.
YVR has always been, and probably will be for a long time, very summer seasonal to Europe.
Next summer YVR will have 10 carriers offering non-stop flights to Europe! Leading the way in Western Canada hands down.
Not too shabby!

Air Canada
LHR - two daily (789 & 788)
FRA - daily 77W
ZRH - 5 weekly 788
DUB - 4 weekly 788

Air France
CDG - daily 789

British Airways
LHR - daily 388

Condor
FRA - 4 weekly 763

Edelweiss
ZRH - 3 weekly 343

Icelandair
KEF - 4 weekly 75W

KLM
AMS - daily 772

Lufthansa
FRA - daily 744
MUC - daily 359

Turkish
IST - 3 weekly 789

Westjet
LGW - daily 789

Not many cities served by A380s and B747s anymore

Pretty impressive eh?

How’s that YUL thread going anyway? Had a quick look and not very active. Could not care less anyway but I had to look

[Calfan12]

Originally Posted by Johnny Aussie

^ and for a relatively small population centre on the far flung West Coast of North America YVR actually does have a decent amount of service to Europe.
Of course YVR is Asia Pacific centric but not a bad list of services to Europe.
YVR has always been, and probably will be for a long time, very summer seasonal to Europe.
Next summer YVR will have 10 carriers offering non-stop flights to Europe! Leading the way in Western Canada hands down.
Not too shabby!

Air Canada
LHR - two daily (789 & 788)
FRA - daily 77W
ZRH - 5 weekly 788
DUB - 4 weekly 788

Air France
CDG - daily 789

British Airways
LHR - daily 388

Condor
FRA - 4 weekly 763

Edelweiss
ZRH - 3 weekly 343

Icelandair
KEF - 4 weekly 75W

KLM
AMS - daily 772

Lufthansa
FRA - daily 744
MUC - daily 359

Turkish
IST - 3 weekly 789

Westjet
LGW - daily 789

Not many cities served by A380s and B747s anymore

Pretty impressive eh?

How’s that YUL thread going anyway? Had a quick look and not very active. Could not care less anyway but I had to look

Yes it’s not too bad,but *changes are still possible* as were still in a pandemic.

1 of the changes that could happen is WestJet cut Vancouver- London Gatwick UK route to 3-4x weekly,instead of daily in Spring/Summer 2022 as both Air Canada & British Airways already have a “stronghold” on the YVR- London UK flights!!

Also it could free up a WestJet 787 to (possibly) start a another new route to Europe (seasonally) from their busier 2 hubs in Calgary YYC or Toronto YYZ.

[casper]

Originally Posted by Calfan12

Yes it’s not too bad,but *changes are still possible* as were still in a pandemic.

1 of the changes that could happen is WestJet cut Vancouver- London Gatwick UK route to 3-4x weekly,instead of daily in Spring/Summer 2022 as both Air Canada & British Airways already have a “stronghold” on the YVR- London UK flights!!

Also it could free up a WestJet 787 to (possibly) start a another new route to Europe (seasonally) from their busier 2 hubs in Calgary YYC or Toronto YYZ.

Best possible outcome would be in WestJet and Virgin Atlantic were to come up with a comprehensive codeshare agreement. Potentially reuse the 787 on a different route and have Virgin operate the YVR-Heathrow route. However we may be a year or two or three off from that happening.

[hehehe]

Originally Posted by Johnny Aussie

^ and for a relatively small population centre on the far flung West Coast of North America YVR actually does have a decent amount of service to Europe.
Of course YVR is Asia Pacific centric but not a bad list of services to Europe.
YVR has always been, and probably will be for a long time, very summer seasonal to Europe.
Next summer YVR will have 10 carriers offering non-stop flights to Europe! Leading the way in Western Canada hands down.
Not too shabby!

Air Canada
LHR - two daily (789 & 788)
FRA - daily 77W
ZRH - 5 weekly 788
DUB - 4 weekly 788

Air France
CDG - daily 789

British Airways
LHR - daily 388

Condor
FRA - 4 weekly 763

Edelweiss
ZRH - 3 weekly 343

Icelandair
KEF - 4 weekly 75W

KLM
AMS - daily 772

Lufthansa
FRA - daily 744
MUC - daily 359

Turkish
IST - 3 weekly 789

Westjet
LGW - daily 789

Not many cities served by A380s and B747s anymore

Pretty impressive eh?

How’s that YUL thread going anyway? Had a quick look and not very active. Could not care less anyway but I had to look

It's more than not bad, it's incredible. American cities on the east coast that are a similar size as YVR don't have as many Europe flights as YVR.

[hollywoodcory]

Originally Posted by Calfan12

Also it could free up a WestJet 787 to (possibly) start a another new route to Europe (seasonally) from their busier 2 hubs in Calgary YYC or Toronto YYZ.

WS doesn't have enough 787s currently to add anything else. They don't even have enough to do its current S22 schedule.

[Johnny Aussie]

Originally Posted by hehehe

It's more than not bad, it's incredible. American cities on the east coast that are a similar size as YVR don't have as many Europe flights as YVR.

So true actually. And the fact YVR is geographically disadvantaged compared to those Eastern cities just makes it that much more impressive. And eight European airlines flying to YVR - mostly full-service carriers too. YVR has gained carriers to Europe not lost them.
Obviously changes can happen (which is always the case and goes without saying) but even BA putting the A380 back on YVR-LHR is a good confidence sign. Shows the O&D market is strong. Certainly less dependent on connecting traffic than other cities.
And Air Canada with 30 weekly YVR-Europe flights - not that long ago one daily YVR-LHR was all they offered.

And looking the other direction YVR is the only airport in Western Canada with ANY direct service to Asia. Looks like it will be that way for awhile still at least. And the list of carriers despite the mainland China carriers being so restricted fails to disappoint.
Again, YVR gained carriers SQ and AI (and QF too Asia/Pacific) whilst the Chinese carriers are in a bit of a holding pattern. The one flight a week to one city rule is NO reflection on YVR’s position as an Asia Pacific gateway. They will return! When and how many is anybody’s guess.

And a bit on the exotic side. There’s an Egyptair Dreamliner on its way to YVR from Cairo as we speak.

[Calfan12]

Calgary Based Lynx Air announced Vancouver YVR is among their 1st start up destinations in Canada starting April 2022:

YVR - Calgary YYC from April 7 7x weekly & 14x weekly from May 20
YVR - Kelowna YLW from April 15 2x weekly
YVR - Winnipeg YWG from April 19 2x weekly
YVR - Toronto YYZ from April 28 7x weekly

That’s what Lynx flights schedule for Vancouver looks like currently, but *changes* to it are possible & were still in a pandemic.

https://www.globenewswire.com/news-relea...ights-to-Five-Canadian-Destinations.html

https://beta.ctvnews.ca/local/calgary/2022/1/19/1_5746140.amp.html

[nname]

So... the schedule for YVR will be...

1 daily early morning arrival from YYC at ~7am
2 daily morning departure to YYC, YYZ at ~8am

Few weekly afternoon arrival and departure from/to YLW/YWG at 12-5pm

2 daily evening arrival from YYC, YYZ at ~8pm
1 daily evening departure to YYC at ~9pm

So one plane each day will remain overnight at YVR, while all other routes fly to/from YYC.

[Calfan12]

Originally Posted by nname

So... the schedule for YVR will be...

1 daily early morning arrival from YYC at ~7am
2 daily morning departure to YYC, YYZ at ~8am

Few weekly afternoon arrival and departure from/to YLW/YWG at 12-5pm

2 daily evening arrival from YYC, YYZ at ~8pm
1 daily evening departure to YYC at ~9pm

So one plane each day will remain overnight at YVR, while all other routes fly to/from YYC.

Yep👍!

[Johnny Aussie]

What a surprise from Lynx.
A big yawn for me.
Ground breaking routes.

[hehehe]

Originally Posted by Johnny Aussie

So true actually. And the fact YVR is geographically disadvantaged compared to those Eastern cities just makes it that much more impressive. And eight European airlines flying to YVR - mostly full-service carriers too. YVR has gained carriers to Europe not lost them.
Obviously changes can happen (which is always the case and goes without saying) but even BA putting the A380 back on YVR-LHR is a good confidence sign. Shows the O&D market is strong. Certainly less dependent on connecting traffic than other cities.
And Air Canada with 30 weekly YVR-Europe flights - not that long ago one daily YVR-LHR was all they offered.

And looking the other direction YVR is the only airport in Western Canada with ANY direct service to Asia. Looks like it will be that way for awhile still at least. And the list of carriers despite the mainland China carriers being so restricted fails to disappoint.
Again, YVR gained carriers SQ and AI (and QF too Asia/Pacific) whilst the Chinese carriers are in a bit of a holding pattern. The one flight a week to one city rule is NO reflection on YVR’s position as an Asia Pacific gateway. They will return! When and how many is anybody’s guess.

And a bit on the exotic side. There’s an Egyptair Dreamliner on its way to YVR from Cairo as we speak.

Whether it's in 2022 or 2023 you're right that Chinese flying will come back. But scoring AI and SQ is such a huge win for the airport authority!