Downtowns are back

[Derek]

Originally Posted by mhays

DT. Portland has boomed if you include the Pearl District, and to a lesser extent Goose Hollow. Some would add the South Waterfront which is basically new.

Agreed, not sure what’s officially considered “downtown” for the purposes of this thread, but the “downtown” Portland numbers are very misleading.

[Yuri]

Originally Posted by Derek

Agreed, not sure what’s officially considered “downtown” for the purposes of this thread, but the “downtown” Portland numbers are very misleading.

If we google "Downtown Portland". The vast majority of entries show pretty much the same definition I used here. Not sure what's "misleading" about it. From Wikipedia:

"The downtown neighborhood extends west from the Willamette to Interstate 405 and south from Burnside Street to just south of the Portland State University campus (also bounded by I-405)"

[Derek]

Originally Posted by yuriandrade

If we google "Downtown Portland". The vast majority of entries show pretty much the same definition I used here. Not sure what's "misleading" about it. From Wikipedia:

"The downtown neighborhood extends west from the Willamette to Interstate 405 and south from Burnside Street to just south of the Portland State University campus (also bounded by I-405)"

Because that’s a super small area that’s nearly entirely commercial, as opposed to some of the broader definitions of other city’s downtown areas. Semantics, really. As the other poster said, if you included The Pearl and Goose Hollow areas, which in most cities would probably be considered part of “downtown”, the numbers would increase dramatically.

[Yuri]

Originally Posted by Derek

Because that’s a super small area that’s nearly entirely commercial, as opposed to some of the broader definitions of other city’s downtown areas. Semantics, really. As the other poster said, if you included The Pearl and Goose Hollow areas, which in most cities would probably be considered part of “downtown”, the numbers would increase dramatically.

We can talk about other neighbourhoods too, but this thread is focused on Downtowns.

About the size, New Orleans that I just posted above, is only slightly larger (2.6 km² vs 2.1 km²). Or Pittsburgh posted few pages back with only 1.4 km², Kansas City (2.3 km²), Denver (2.3 km²), Tampa (1.9 km²).

Originally Posted by SIGSEGV

If I had to guess, airbnb.

I wonder how is like to live there. It's definitely not an ordinary place to live in.

[SIGSEGV]

Originally Posted by yuriandrade

I wonder how is like to live there. It's definitely not an ordinary place to live in.

Probably like living in Venice or Sighisoara or Zermatt I would guess.

[Yuri]

Originally Posted by SIGSEGV

Probably like living in Venice or Sighisoara or Zermatt I would guess.

I thought it was different as I imagined the French Quarter was mostly party-oriented, but it seems it has quiet streets as well.

And racial divide is very stark: on French Quarter, Whites outnumber Blacks in a 11:1 ratio. On tracts immediatelly northwest of it, Blacks are the vast majority.

[mhays]

Originally Posted by yuriandrade

If we google "Downtown Portland". The vast majority of entries show pretty much the same definition I used here. Not sure what's "misleading" about it. From Wikipedia:

"The downtown neighborhood extends west from the Willamette to Interstate 405 and south from Burnside Street to just south of the Portland State University campus (also bounded by I-405)"

That's an ok definition. But there's a ton of variation between cities in this thread.

Cleveland getting 7.8 sk and Portland getting 2.1 sk?

[Yuri]

Originally Posted by mhays

That's an ok definition. But there's a ton of variation between cities in this thread.

Cleveland getting 7.8 sk and Portland getting 2.1 sk?

Each city/community define their Downtowns according to their realities and they're definitely not worried about on how another city thousands of kms away will do it.

Specifically about Cleveland, it actually takes less census tracts than Portland. It's only 3 whether Portland's comprises 5. Their domestic airport and their massive docks are all contained there.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by yuriandrade

Specifically about Cleveland...... Their domestic airport and their massive docks are all contained there.

Cleveland's Burke Lakefront airport isn't a "domestic airport", it's really much more of a general aviation airport, with the only scheduled passenger service being twice daily flights to Cincinnati-Lunken on Ultimate Air Shuttle (which flies little 30-seater regional jets).

99% of Cleveland's commercial air passenger traffic goes through the city's main airport, Hopkins.

[SIGSEGV]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

Cleveland's Burke Lakefront airport isn't a "domestic airport", it's really much more of a general aviation airport, with the only scheduled passenger service being twice daily flights to Cincinnati-Lunken on Ultimate Air Shuttle.

99% of Cleveland's commercial air passenger goes through the city's main airport, Hopkins.

Yeah, it's kind of ridiculous that it takes up so much land with such little use.

[Yuri]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

Cleveland's Burke Lakefront airport isn't a "domestic airport", it's really much more of a general aviation airport, with the only scheduled passenger service being twice daily flights to Cincinnati-Lunken on Ultimate Air Shuttle (which flies little 30-seater regional jets).

99% of Cleveland's commercial air passenger traffic goes through the city's main airport, Hopkins.

Originally Posted by SIGSEGV

Yeah, it's kind of ridiculous that it takes up so much land with such little use.

I didn't know that. It's a prime location, the airport site is huge, why not open for general traffic or close it altogether.

Rio de Janeiro has its domestic airport Downtown, like half mile away from the tall office buildings, but it handles 11 million passengers/year, cornerstone of the "air bridge" between Rio and São Paulo. It functions pretty much as those central stations in European cities.

Originally Posted by badrunner

Yeah I would definitely add the Pearl District. There's no reason it shouldn't be included as part of downtown for the purposes of this thread. ​It would add 11019 people in 0.4 square miles, almost doubling the downtown population.

It's a bit misleading to say "Downtown Portland hasn't followed the national trend, posting a rather modest growth and slower than its own metro area." That statement is intuitively wrong to anyone familiar with Portland. It's actually been a trendsetter for smaller urbanizing cities.

My comments on Downtown Portland might have been a bit off mark, specially as I've never been to the US, but I guess any forumer here talking compiling data for a second/third tier Brazilian city would probably be off as well (not that anyone would dare trying to do such a thing).

In any case, most cities saw substantial increases in their very core, not relying on booming adjacent districts: Chicago, Los Angeles, Seattle, Denver, San Diego, Houston, Atlanta, Pittsburgh, Cleveland, just to mention a few. Downtown Portland didn't behave the same.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by yuriandrade

I didn't know that. It's a prime location, the airport site is huge, why not open for general traffic or close it altogether.

a local clevelander would have to tell you about those details. my guess is that the lakefront airport lacks the terminals and other infrastructure to make it feasible as a commercial passenger airport. but yes, it does take up an egregious amount of precious lakefront real estate right in the core of the city.

chicago once had a very similar general aviation airport on its lakefront just south of downtown called Meigs Field. after the city engaged in a decades long battle with state officials to close it, King Richard II infamously sent in bulldozers to literally tear up the runaway in the middle of the night roughly 2 decades ago in the name of "homeland security". today the former airport is now ~50 acres of additional publicly-accessible lakefront parkland called Northerly Island Park, and is also home to a 30,000 capacity outdoor concert venue.

[Derek]

Originally Posted by yuriandrade

My comments on Downtown Portland might have been a bit off mark, specially as I've never been to the US, but I guess any forumer here talking compiling data for a second/third tier Brazilian city would probably be off as well (not that anyone would dare trying to do such a thing).

In any case, most cities saw substantial increases in their very core, not relying on booming adjacent districts: Chicago, Los Angeles, Seattle, Denver, San Diego, Houston, Atlanta, Pittsburgh, Cleveland, just to mention a few. Downtown Portland didn't behave the same.

I think you’re misunderstanding. The Goose Hollow and Pearl neighborhoods are part of Portland’s “downtown” core, despite having a distinct name.

[mhays]

Originally Posted by yuriandrade

Each city/community define their Downtowns according to their realities and they're definitely not worried about on how another city thousands of kms away will do it.

Specifically about Cleveland, it actually takes less census tracts than Portland. It's only 3 whether Portland's comprises 5. Their domestic airport and their massive docks are all contained there.

Cities don't define their downtowns in any way relevant to this thread.

That's a fantasy among fan boards. It's not how cities work in real life.

[badrunner]

Originally Posted by mhays

DT. Portland has boomed if you include the Pearl District, and to a lesser extent Goose Hollow. Some would add the South Waterfront which is basically new.

Yeah I would definitely add the Pearl District. There's no reason it shouldn't be included as part of downtown for the purposes of this thread. ​It would add 11019 people in 0.4 square miles, almost doubling the downtown population.

Originally Posted by yuriandrade

If we google "Downtown Portland". The vast majority of entries show pretty much the same definition I used here. Not sure what's "misleading" about it.

It's a bit misleading to say "Downtown Portland hasn't followed the national trend, posting a rather modest growth and slower than its own metro area." That statement is intuitively wrong to anyone familiar with Portland. It's actually been a trendsetter for smaller urbanizing cities.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by Derek

Agreed, not sure what’s officially considered “downtown” for the purposes of this thread, but the “downtown” Portland numbers are very misleading.

Right, Portland definitely has a ton of new residential construction. The Pearl District and whatever they call that highrise corridor along the river south of downtown are pretty impressive.

This exercise, while fun and somewhat illustrative of trends, is hardly definitive. There's no definition of city centers, and census tracts aren't apples-apples.

Also, I'm not even sure that a high population growth is necessarily a sign of prosperity. The most high-value downtown office cores, places like Midtown Manhattan and Downtown DC, had limited population growth. This is because the highest and best use of land is for commercial uses. If the highest and best use shifted to residential, and former trophy office space were converted to apartments, that would arguably be a sign of relative weakness, not strength.

[SIGSEGV]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Also, I'm not even sure that a high population growth is necessarily a sign of prosperity. The most high-value downtown office cores, places like Midtown Manhattan and Downtown DC, had limited population growth. This is because the highest and best use of land is for commercial uses. If the highest and best use shifted to residential, and former trophy office space were converted to apartments, that would arguably be a sign of relative weakness, not strength.

Typically it's older office buildings converted to residential (like my building!), where the alternative is knocking them down and building a new building (but often that's uneconomical due to lot size).

[Quixote]

Everything (or just about) on the table (under construction, approved, proposed):


SSP/DoctorBoffin

3X-large:
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...56f38eb_3k.jpg


That's the view from the 110 at MLK Blvd., so the foreground isn't DTLA. The cluster of brown high-rises to the far right are a project along Mesquit (between 6th and 7th) in the Arts District. The taller set of skyscrapers to its left are part of a project proposed for 6th/Alameda.

Like I said, a lot of room for a lot more than 200K.

[Labtec]

Originally Posted by Quixote

Everything (or just about) on the table (under construction, approved, proposed):


SSP/DoctorBoffin

3X-large:
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...56f38eb_3k.jpg


That's the view from the 110 at MLK Blvd., so the foreground isn't DTLA. The cluster of brown high-rises to the far right are a project along Mesquit (between 6th and 7th) in the Arts District. The taller set of skyscrapers to its left are part of a project proposed for 6th/Alameda.

Like I said, a lot of room for a lot more than 200K.

Hopefully, those are built out, LA's skyline is very underwhelming for the 2nd largest city in the US. Also, whenever I visit there's nothing really to do besides around the LA Live area.

[LA21st]

Originally Posted by Labtec

Hopefully, those are built out, LA's skyline is very underwhelming for the 2nd largest city in the US. Also, whenever I visit there's nothing really to do besides around the LA Live area.

It sounds like you don't know where to go.
Little Tokyo? Arts District? Historic Core? Chinatown? Fashion District?
These places don't exist in another sunbelt city downtown.