CHICAGO | General Discussions

[killaviews]

Originally Posted by IrishIllini

People talk like Uptown is such a rough neighborhood and I've never felt uncomfortable there. I'd say it's already a neighborhood at the "up" of "up and coming". It's just less of the big ten crowd and more alternative type. Increasingly gay too.

The thing that’s taking so long is Uptown’s retail. I imagine the income demographics aren’t so dissimilar from Logan Square, yet where are the restaurants? To keep this topic development related, Cedar’s street 5050 N Broadway has a construction permit for restaurant with outdoor terrace - I assume rooftop. That would be a first for Uptown. Anything north of Montrose doesn’t draw the big restaurant groups. Parson’s Chicken and Fish in Andersonville is the first major Chicago restaurant group to venture north of Montrose, maybe Irving Park. Not that big restaurant group means anything, but it’s just a sign of big investments.

[F1 Tommy]

Originally Posted by galleyfox

Ah, well, two years of NASCAR rumors talking about how racing officials really want to host a street course in the Loop; here’s the first solid evidence. iRacing has been used to model and simulate courses before an actual race is run.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.aut...iracing-event/

They were talking about an F1 or Indy race many years ago, and it never happened. E Formula has raced in NYC I believe, but that has no issue with crowd control (although if you live within 2 miles of the race you are a considers a spectator).

Maybe a bicycle race would be a better idea for Chicago. Run it in January to show what's possible

[OrdoSeclorum]

Originally Posted by the urban politician

Illinois' Rent control preemption act repeal just got out of committee for the first time ever.

Hold your horses...... we may not see the "pop" happen after all

I hate rent control. But the effect would likely be a big increase in condo construction and effectively an artificial decrease in apartment availability, which would increase the demand for condos. But it would also damage Chicago's affordability, increasing the cost of rent for new leases and condo prices. Affordability is an advantage that we don't want to lose.

[OrdoSeclorum]

Originally Posted by Handro

I never hear anyone talk about Uptown like it’s rough... maybe 15+ years ago? I felt no qualms about living there back in 2010-12 and it’s not like I’m some brave urban explorer. But for its location and potential density it’s pretty sleepy. A historic lakefront neighborhood with easy downtown access on the redline, dense prewar architecture, and relatively cheap rent seems like a pretty simple equation; i would have expected to see it become one of the more sought after neighborhoods than Logan Square, for instance. It always feels like Uptown is just... there. An afterthought. But it’s easily one of the most beautiful hoods in the city.

I like Uptown and Rogers Park a lot. But they are really far from the Loop. The reason Uptown exists as a midrise environment is that it was becoming a second "downtown" due to its distance from the Loop. The commute keeps a lot people from moving there. Pilsen, Bridgeport, East Garfield Park and McKinley park are also affordable and probably closer to school or business. And if someone "just needs to be by the lake", many of those folks are turned off by Uptown's charming grit.

Until a few years ago the Alderman, New York transplant Helen Shiller, spent decades actively trying to make Uptown difficult to develop and less appealing to middle class Chicagoans. That momentum is reversing, but it's going to take a while.

[Via Chicago]

Originally Posted by F1 Tommy

Maybe a bicycle race would be a better idea for Chicago

theres an annual cup held in Fulton market

http://intelligentsiacup.com/

Originally Posted by OrdoSeclorum

I like Uptown and Rogers Park a lot. But they are really far from the Loop. The reason Uptown exists as a midrise environment is that it was becoming a second "downtown" due to its distance from the Loop. The commute keeps a lot people from moving there. Pilsen, Bridgeport, East Garfield Park and McKinley park are also affordable and probably closer to school or business. And if someone "just needs to be by the lake", many of those folks are turned off by Uptown's charming grit.

rogers park is far. uptown? its 30 minutes to the loop on the red line. its really not that bad. honestly i dont think its even that much different than coming in from logan square.

edgewater is the real hidden gem of the city. it has tons more restaurants/dining compared to uptown (and has easy proximity to the Argyle stretch on the north end), plus less grit, cheap rent, low crime, excellent transit, tons of grocery stores at all price points, and amazing lake access. the only "con" is its not a nightlife area (i actually see that as a positive, but it keeps it quiet and sedate).

[Mr Downtown]

Originally Posted by brian_b

do any of you know the history around Special Service Area 12 ("downtown circulator")? It still shows up on Cook County tax bills, but as far as my digging goes, it has never collected any revenue and the City of Chicago DPD does not list it as an active SSA. What's the deal with it?

That pretty much sums it up. The taxing authority was put in place for the Circulator, and never has been removed.

https://chicago.suntimes.com/2016/6/...tower-tax-bill

[ardecila]

Originally Posted by OrdoSeclorum

I hate rent control. But the effect would likely be a big increase in condo construction and effectively an artificial decrease in apartment availability, which would increase the demand for condos. But it would also damage Chicago's affordability, increasing the cost of rent for new leases and condo prices. Affordability is an advantage that we don't want to lose.

Rent control or no, I think the number of people looking to make a long-term bet on Chicago real estate isn't huge. People have understandable hesitation to buy property in the city given the trends in crime, taxes, schools, etc.

I don't know that rent control would shift people into condos - I think it's more likely we just get a lot of deadweight loss as people re-discover the suburbs or just never move to Chicago at all.

[west-town-brad]

Originally Posted by ardecila

Rent control or no, I think the number of people looking to make a long-term bet on Chicago real estate isn't huge. People have understandable hesitation to buy property in the city given the trends in crime, taxes, schools, etc.

Feb 2021 was the strongest month in Chicago residential real estate in 16 years, so apparently people are willing to make that bet.

https://www.chicagobusiness.com/resi...ebruary-record

[OrdoSeclorum]

Originally Posted by ardecila

Rent control or no, I think the number of people looking to make a long-term bet on Chicago real estate isn't huge. People have understandable hesitation to buy property in the city given the trends in crime, taxes, schools, etc.

I don't know that rent control would shift people into condos - I think it's more likely we just get a lot of deadweight loss as people re-discover the suburbs or just never move to Chicago at all.

Chicago is great. It was adding college grads like crazy in the 90's, started adding them faster in the 2000's and it's adding them even faster now. I remember stories in Tribune in the early 2000's about "3,000 new apartments are coming online in the next couple years? Is that too many for Chicago? Will that many people move to the Loop?"

There are cranes all over the city and I think only Seattle and New York have more? People have been wringing their hands about schools, taxes and crime in every city in the U.S. for 80 years. It would be better if schools were better, crime was lower and taxes were optimized to maximize prosperity and well being. But Chicago is in a great situation and if I listened to people who said the same thing to me in '97, 2007 or 2017 and moved to some boring house with a big yard in front and no sidewalks, my life would be a lot worse.

Regardless, my claims about the effects of rent control are not my guesses but based upon analysis from other places that enacted rent control. Here's a good recent piece: https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/ar...ster-we-feared

[marothisu]

Originally Posted by bcp

It's not that people hesitate to invest in Chicago or buy property in Chicago - no t..at..all

People hesitate to STAY in the city once children reach a certain age, unless you live in the 1/10th of the city that has great schools (or isn't crime ridden)

Pretty much - at least this hits home. We're planning on having children and also moving back to Chicago (one of the main reasons - affordability with children). Definitely been looking at properties and the rankings of schools in the areas. We don't want to live in the suburbs, but holy crap is moving to somewhere like Naperville in an area with schools with all 8-10 ratings going to be attractive at some point.

I'm very interested to see how this plays out in some of the north side areas though. I've noticed some decent or good rankings in Lincoln Park, Lakeview, etc. For some of the areas that are still gentrifying, curious to see how the school rankings follow.

There are also many people who cannot afford a 3 bedroom in the city in a neighborhood with good schools so there's that too. I'm not talking about people who aren't making a lot of money but there's also going to be people who have a household income of $150K and 2 children who still cannot reasonably afford with all of their other costs/financial goals to live in Lincoln Park or Lakeview in a 3 or 4 bedroom. So will they just end up going to another part of town, getting school ratings up or..? Here in NYC I think there's been shades of that - there's some schools with ratings now that are in those types of overflow areas that are improved from 10 or 15 years ago quite a bit.


Chicago though has absolutely no trouble attracting people to move to the city/region, contrary to popular belief. It's basically the churn that kills it and makes it look stagnant. If you actually look at the county data, Cook County is really no different than some of the top growing areas of the country with inflow. The issue is retention and outflow. However, I think it's more complex than that. I maintain that the region has been replacing its type of work force for a long time. There's a reason why you see $1M+ homes and condos with not much issue selling and then 10 miles away in Englewood people emptying out. Not that much different than what other cities went through previously. I still see Chicago heading down this path and nothing is stopping it yet.

https://flowsmapper.geo.census.gov/

[ardecila]

Originally Posted by west-town-brad

Feb 2021 was the strongest month in Chicago residential real estate in 16 years, so apparently people are willing to make that bet.

https://www.chicagobusiness.com/resi...ebruary-record

Yes, Covid has produced a boom in people looking to move from apartments into houses since they can't spend disposable income on travel and bars/restaurants. The condo market is still lukewarm.

Once Covid ends, things should go back to "normal" but if we get a rent control ordinance it will seriously impact our rental market which currently produces plenty of mid-priced housing. That affordable housing market is a big part of what makes the city a draw for talent. It's certainly not our natural beauty, climate, or dominance in a particular industry...

[west-town-brad]

Originally Posted by bcp

It's not that people hesitate to invest in Chicago or buy property in Chicago - no t..at..all

People hesitate to STAY in the city once children reach a certain age, unless you live in the 1/10th of the city that has great schools (or isn't crime ridden)

Well so this is a cost/price/affordability issue and not a desirability or willingness to invest issue.

the original statement was that people are not investing in Chicago because of crime, schools suck, taxes too high whatever pick an issue

but in reality it's expensive to live well here and maybe its less expensive to live well some other places

it all depends on how much money you have an what you want: florida is great on paper but you still have to live in florida

[Handro]

Originally Posted by marothisu

Pretty much - at least this hits home. We're planning on having children and also moving back to Chicago (one of the main reasons - affordability with children). Definitely been looking at properties and the rankings of schools in the areas. We don't want to live in the suburbs, but holy crap is moving to somewhere like Naperville in an area with schools with all 8-10 ratings going to be attractive at some point.

I'm very interested to see how this plays out in some of the north side areas though. I've noticed some decent or good rankings in Lincoln Park, Lakeview, etc. For some of the areas that are still gentrifying, curious to see how the school rankings follow.

There are also many people who cannot afford a 3 bedroom in the city in a neighborhood with good schools so there's that too. I'm not talking about people who aren't making a lot of money but there's also going to be people who have a household income of $150K and 2 children who still cannot reasonably afford with all of their other costs/financial goals to live in Lincoln Park or Lakeview in a 3 or 4 bedroom. So will they just end up going to another part of town, getting school ratings up or..? Here in NYC I think there's been shades of that - there's some schools with ratings now that are in those types of overflow areas that are improved from 10 or 15 years ago quite a bit.


Chicago though has absolutely no trouble attracting people to move to the city/region, contrary to popular belief. It's basically the churn that kills it and makes it look stagnant. If you actually look at the county data, Cook County is really no different than some of the top growing areas of the country with inflow. The issue is retention and outflow. However, I think it's more complex than that. I maintain that the region has been replacing its type of work force for a long time. There's a reason why you see $1M+ homes and condos with not much issue selling and then 10 miles away in Englewood people emptying out. Not that much different than what other cities went through previously. I still see Chicago heading down this path and nothing is stopping it yet.

https://flowsmapper.geo.census.gov/

My GF and I have a combined income of ~$175K and there is no way in hell we can afford a place large enough to have kids in Lincoln Park, North Center, Lakeview, etc. The type of dense, walkable neighborhood that we both want are basically off limits to us unless we take some big financial risks in the next few years and they all pay off. If my options were a place like Gladstone Park, I'd rather just live in a pre-war suburb with a dense downtown and a Metra stop. As such, we have no plans for kids right now and there are no children in our medium term plans. People like us certainly aren't helping the city grow, I know that.

[marothisu]

Originally Posted by bcp

Good points - there are some gentrifying areas (we live in Pilsen) that can have school improvements and safety improvements that progress the way NYC does (fast). But the worst area here are worse and slower than NYC to improve on average income / schools / safety. It's an infrastructure issue - swaths of vacant land, dilapidated main streets, few businesses / jobs, busted sidewalks, and more that make (unfortunately) some of the areas close to transit, near the lake, with parks, and with old housing stock are probably the very slowest to improve. You've got to be a serious urban adventurist to move to 63rd and Vernon:
https://www.google.com/maps/place/S+...!4d-87.6144212

Yeah that's for sure. I'm actually interested to see what happens in some areas like Auburn Gresham. Lately there's been a surge in developers buying old homes, usually for pretty cheap and renovating into something pretty decent. These sell anywhere from $225K to $300K. Many of these have gone above their sale price too. Some of these houses are over 2000 sq ft too. Now you don't have to be rich to buy a $250K place but with kids, saving, etc you do. It just seems like low level "gentrification "..I out that in quotes because it's not like a bunch of $600K+ properties being built in Bronzeville or Woodlawn, but this is almost more interesting that seems to not get much press at all. Other areas I've noticed with this are Roseland, South Shore, Chatham, GGC...but there is a bit of a concentration I noticed in Auburb Gresham. Really interested to see what the outcome of this will be.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by Handro

My GF and I have a combined income of ~$175K and there is no way in hell we can afford a place large enough to have kids in Lincoln Park, North Center, Lakeview, etc.

On that income you can easily afford a family-size home in Lincoln Square, just due north of North Center.

We got a 3 bed/3 bath 2,300 SF duplex-down a block away from an excellent CPS elementary school (waters), a block away from a brown line stop, and a 6 minute walk to giddings plaza (the heart and soul of LS) for only $420K (+$300/month assessment, $8K/year in property taxes).

You'll be just fine to raise your family very comfortably in an awesome, safe, and extremely family-friendly city neighborhood like LS on a household AGI of $175K.

Now, if you absolutely demand to have a detached SFH to raise a family in, that will be a tougher mission in any of the city's more urban areas, because the more urban areas (obviously) have much fewer of them on a relative basis, so the supply/demand curve for detached SFH gets a lot steeper (and the property taxes get a lot more onerous).

[OrdoSeclorum]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

On that income you can easily afford a family-size home in Lincoln Square, just due north of North Center

We got a 3 bed/3 bath 2,300 SF duplex-down a block away from an excellent CPS elementary school (waters), a block away from a brown line stop, and a 7 minute walk to giddings plaza (the heart and soul of LS) for only $420K.

You'll be just fine to raise your family very comfortably in an awesome, safe, and extremely family-friendly city neighborhood like LS if you move back to chicago.

Now, if you absolutely demand to have a detached SFH to raise a family in, that will be a tougher mission.

One thing I've observed is that people in Chicago tend to underestimate how much house they can "afford". There are many folks in California earning $175,000 who buy houses that are over a million dollars and don't think twice. I'm not saying that's the way it should be, but some of this is cultural.

If you earn $175,000 a year, keep 80% of that after taxes and spend 30% of the remainder on a house payment, insurance and taxes, that would get you about a $750,000 home, if you could afford to put 20% down. In pleasant Old Irving Park, that would get you a lawn, 2-car garage and maybe a sewing room in a spire, as long as you didn't require a contemporary kitchen with Italian marble.

If you don't want the creaky Victorian, the payment on this brand new five bedreem place would be under $3,000 including taxes https://www.realtor.com/realestatean...1_M77847-72634

One thing about Chicago that I think posters here consistently get wrong are Chicago schools. The average school in Chicago isn't great, but it's also not gangland. But there are LOTS of good schools here. My nephew attended the Disney Charter in Uptown, which he walked to with his mom from their two bedroom apartment. It seemed wonderful and they greatly preferred it to what they went to in Dewitt, Michigan a few years later, which has some of the highest rated schools in the state. In East Village where I used to live, I wouldn't hesitate to send kids to the local public elementary there, Talcott. It seemed pleasant and joyful.

Every person I know who's in Chicago who's professional with a stable household hasn't had a hard time getting their kids into a good public school here. It might take a little organizing effort from the parents and it helps if the child is a good student, but that's honestly not too much to expect from the type of family that would fit in Naperville.

Honestly the people I know that have moved to the suburbs for their kids schools are by no means racist. But I just always get the feeling that in their hippocampus or amygdyla or whatever they feel "I went to a good school in suburban Grand Rapids and that was mostly white. My kids should go to a mostly white school too, because that's what the expectation is."

[galleyfox]

Originally Posted by marothisu

Yeah that's for sure. I'm actually interested to see what happens in some areas like Auburn Gresham. Lately there's been a surge in developers buying old homes, usually for pretty cheap and renovating into something pretty decent. These sell anywhere from $225K to $300K. Many of these have gone above their sale price too. Some of these houses are over 2000 sq ft too. Now you don't have to be rich to buy a $250K place but with kids, saving, etc you do. It just seems like low level "gentrification "..I out that in quotes because it's not like a bunch of $600K+ properties being built in Bronzeville or Woodlawn, but this is almost more interesting that seems to not get much press at all. Other areas I've noticed with this are Roseland, South Shore, Chatham, GGC...but there is a bit of a concentration I noticed in Auburb Gresham. Really interested to see what the outcome of this will be.

Funny you should say that.

I just bought a $230K house by Eckersall Park for my family. No children yet, but my father and grandmother are moving in from South FL. These are the only neighborhoods in the city where you can find nice renovated large single family homes for an affordable price with reasonably safe streets.

The Obama Presidential Library, the large brick houses, and lakeshore and CTA access were the main factors that tipped the scales in favor of taking a gamble on the neighborhood.

[SIGSEGV]

Originally Posted by ardecila

Yes, Covid has produced a boom in people looking to move from apartments into houses since they can't spend disposable income on travel and bars/restaurants. The condo market is still lukewarm.

Once Covid ends, things should go back to "normal" but if we get a rent control ordinance it will seriously impact our rental market which currently produces plenty of mid-priced housing. That affordable housing market is a big part of what makes the city a draw for talent. It's certainly not our natural beauty, climate, or dominance in a particular industry...

Have rents even been going up anywhere faster than would be allowed by rent control? I guess probably edge areas that turn from rough to desirable maybe...

[SIGSEGV]

Originally Posted by Handro

My GF and I have a combined income of ~$175K and there is no way in hell we can afford a place large enough to have kids in Lincoln Park, North Center, Lakeview, etc. The type of dense, walkable neighborhood that we both want are basically off limits to us unless we take some big financial risks in the next few years and they all pay off. If my options were a place like Gladstone Park, I'd rather just live in a pre-war suburb with a dense downtown and a Metra stop. As such, we have no plans for kids right now and there are no children in our medium term plans. People like us certainly aren't helping the city grow, I know that.

You can easily afford a 3br condo on that income in a desirable area, which should be large enough unless you plan on having a large number of kids.

[Handro]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

On that income you can easily afford a family-size home in Lincoln Square, just due north of North Center.

We got a 3 bed/3 bath 2,300 SF duplex-down a block away from an excellent CPS elementary school (waters), a block away from a brown line stop, and a 7 minute walk to giddings plaza (the heart and soul of LS) for only $420K (+$300/month assessment, $8K/year in property taxes).

You'll be just fine to raise your family very comfortably in an awesome, safe, and extremely family-friendly city neighborhood like LS on a household AGI of $175K.

Now, if you absolutely demand to have a detached SFH to raise a family in, that will be a tougher mission in any of the city's more urban areas, because the more urban areas (obviously) have much fewer of them on a relative basis, so the supply/demand curve for them gets a lot steeper (and the property taxes get a lot more onerous).

I dunno, maybe it's down to personal budget priorities, but I'd feel pretty house-poor based on the math we've done together paying more than 350, with a major stretch up to 400. We (currently) would have about 20k to put down based on a moderate estimate of the potential sale price of our current (tiny) North Center condo.