Calgary International Airport II

[MasterG]

Originally Posted by MMMBeer

I personally liked CTG. I sat around in lounge and then the bar watching screens for boarding status, then just waltzed over when boarding was announced.

How is this any different before the CTG system?

[Riise]

Originally Posted by MasterG

How is this any different before the CTG system?

As all the bars are concentrated, you have more choice.

[MMMBeer]

Originally Posted by MasterG

How is this any different before the CTG system?

Old system = no live announcements of boarding commencement.

Under "usual" system have to guess whether it's worth to arrive at T-30, or have another quick one and arrive at AC's boarding cutoff, T-20. Based on the stated boarding time.

My gold standard is to arrive just at end of regular boarding if I have no carryon. however if I'm lugging a carryon and am sitting in economy, I want to get there as pre-boarding starts as I get priority boarding and want to snag space for my bag. CTG(in theory) cuts out some of the guesswork, and worked well when I went thru E last week.

Although the CTG in IST was kinda conservative in that they also announced "Go to Gate" and we ended up sitting in a secure holdroom for 30+ mins with zippo to do. Shoulda waited - we in the kick-butt Turkish Airlines lounge.

[Tobuz]

Originally Posted by MMMBeer

I personally liked CTG. I sat around in lounge and then the bar watching screens for boarding status, then just waltzed over when boarding was announced.

Perfect.

I hate standing around at a gate. I fly lots so have little interest in being at gate itself (unless there's lots of cool flight ops viewable from gate, and even then...)

My big beef is with no proper NEXUS line at D/E

Personally, I'm with you on all counts. 100%

YYC's problems are:
(1) A large number of passengers are either totally unaware of or just don't get the CTG system, and so are going straight through the waiting area to wait at their gates (just as most North American fliers are conditioned to do). They're ending up frustrated because they either have to stand or sit on the floor.
(2) Many passengers want to wait at the gate. Even if they understand CTG, they don't want to sit without their departure gate being in sight and in earshot. So, ditto ... they're frustrated by our new airport, because they're left waiting either standing up or sitting on the floor.

At this stage - once design has been completed, and the building has been built and opened - both are pretty tough problems to fix.

For those people who either don't get CTG or don't like doing CTG, the new terminal is giving them a pretty poor user experience.

That's clearly not good when YYC is competing for hub traffic, and when that user experience is compounded by all of the other current issues, i.e. no NEXUS lanes, queue confusion at Customs, and the capacity issues and user confusion at the Connections center.

[mezzanine]

1) couldn't call-to-gate issues be resolved just by installing more seats by the gate?

2) couldn't security issues be resolved with more staffing/signage?

I can't see why this wouldn't work, unless there are physical, hard-product constraints ( lack of space for seating at the gate, waiting area/corridor constraints, major flaws with lay-out, etc.) although I'd be worried about peak constraints on YYC link.

I'd maybe wait a while before you give a verdict. YYC has a great new terminal and IMO there would be a considerable learning curve for passengers and staff to adjust to it. The ball was dropped on the water fountains, but not insurmountable.

[CalgaryCheese]

This might be a bit of a radical idea to fix CTG, but:

What if boarding started as you left the central lounge? Basically, you'd need to wait until boarding time to leave the central lounge, and boarding pass checks would happen as you leave the central lounge?

[Tobuz]

Originally Posted by mezzanine

1) couldn't call-to-gate issues be resolved just by installing more seats by the gate?

2) couldn't security issues be resolved with more staffing/signage?.

Both are probably valid short term fixes ... but there are still issues.

More seats would get Gate-waiters off the floor. But, with the building's design, YYC can't easily abandon CTG (or even just encourage more people to wait at the gates). The amenities in the gate corridors are super sparse. No water. Tiny bathrooms with limited capacity. And the aesthetic at the gates ain't exactly appealing ... it's stark and almost hospital-like. Chairs are only part of the problem.

As for upping security staffing, everybody would love it! But the cost?! Who pays?? YYC now has checkpoints at A, C, Connections, D and E. Arguably all are short-staffed at certain times. But even just adding a team is of 3 people for an 8-hour day at both the D and E checkpoints would probably run an extra $450k annually when all of the costs are added up. I doubt YYC would want to pay, CATSA has their budget set by the Feds, and Garda won't staff it for free.

The bigger issues seem to be at CBSA and the Connections center -- not security. Signs and stanchions would help, but the issues go beyond basic wayfinding when there's any volume of people trying to clear.

[lespoir]

Originally Posted by MasterG

As a non-expert, perhaps someone more educated in airport operations can enlighten me:

Why can't you have CTG and more seats at gate?

It's not as if the new terminal is lacking space for addition seats based on the pictures. People won't know where to go sit until you post the flight on the CTG boards anyways. The Airport Authority will get the captive consumer audience it wants to sit in the common mall area (until they call the gate) and then people will stop complaining about lack of seats.

Actually it is exactly because of lacking space: they did not allocate enough space to the departure gate areas. There is little room they can improve by simply if adding more benches or chairs.

[casper]

Moving back to domestic......

I was catching a flight (WestJet domestic) today. Finished up my meeting early got the westjet people to shift me to an earlier flight.

No shortage of CASTA people standing around. The barcode zapper person at the entry to the queue, two guarding the exit of the queue holding people back to avoid the lineup at the only open lane. This was necessary since most of the bags before me were being run a second time. In my case, they only ran it one, however I stood there for 5 minutes while the person tried different exposure setting to x-ray my notebook eventually calling another agent over to also look at. The x-ray operator was also upset that my toothpaste might be more than 100 ml. Finally went through, but they had to do the chemical swab thing. The chemical swap person looked at my tooth paste and said "Look this is fine its 100 ml, let me take it but I will bring it back after I show the CASTA x-ray person that there is nothing wrong with it. Sorry." The person I was traveling with also had the same problem.

What about the other CASTA people, there 6-7 other CASTA people standing around watching and waiting.

Toothpaste is from a national brand, and I deliberately buy 100 ml size due to the silly security requirement. Notebook computers are Lenovo T-series (what a substantial part of corporate Canada uses).

The person directly in front of me looks like another business traveler, he was starting to get annoyed.

On the good front, I waited in the lounge, without the international flights that place is not going to be very crowded. Nice when it is not overcrowded.

[Doug]

I haven't been through the new terminal but it looks ideally laid out for CTG as the distance from the central waiting area to any gate doesn't seem that far. CTG would never work at airports like DEN where it can take 20 minutes to travel the length of the concourse. As long as the gate assignments are clearly visible and audible, and the gates easy to find, there should be no need to ever wait at the gate.

Is CTG integrated into mobile apps yet? For example, the Singapore Airlines app receives a gate notification at boarding time.

CTG has to be a huge efficiency win. At traditional airports the gate side waiting areas are empty more often than not. A pooled waiting area must save substantial square footage, energy and maintenance. Of course those savings aren't passed on.

[Mazrim]

Originally Posted by Doug

As long as the gate assignments are clearly visible and audible, and the gates easy to find, there should be no need to ever wait at the gate.

In the Transborder area, there were tons of TVs everywhere and the restaurants had departure information on screens inside. The only audible notifications of boarding that everyone could hear was for final boarding or specific passenger callouts for those about to miss their flight. Otherwise you had to be in earshot of your gate to hear any other announcements specific to your flight.

[hoboman27]

http://calgaryherald.com/business/local-...ng-the-helm-at-calgary-airport-authority
The Chair of the Airport says:
"Though Sartor does not have specific aviation or airport experience, Belich said he will bring an “outward-looking, consumer-oriented approach” to YYC’s management team. A significant part of Sartor’s job, Belich said, will be communicating with stakeholders — including governments, transportation agencies, airlines, non-profits and community members."

Seems to suggest that they haven't been doing a good enough job?

[MalcolmTucker]

^ Well, the feds are evaluating on how to 'unlock value' of airports while lowering costs, while the province gave a pretty strong signal to their opposition to these moves ...

A 25, 25, 50 split between board relations, external relations, and internal administration is likely a good thing. There is lots to do that doesn't require even a pretty casual AVGeek's knowledge.

[suburbia]

Originally Posted by MMMBeer

I personally liked CTG. I sat around in lounge and then the bar watching screens for boarding status, then just waltzed over when boarding was announced.

Perfect.

I hate standing around at a gate. I fly lots so have little interest in being at gate itself (unless there's lots of cool flight ops viewable from gate, and even then...)

My big beef is with no proper NEXUS line at D/E

I agree with you. I often will ignore all the zone calls also, andjust slip in at the end of the line, navigate my small carry on under the seat, and we get going ASAP from then. In fact, when they start boarding is when I head to the rest room.

Call to gate is hugely advantageous from a user perspective, improves "quality of time" at the airport, and physically is more efficient for airports also.

We shouldn't be asking YYC to go backwards. It just is a matter of to educate the Trump voters on the basics.

[CrossedTheTracks]

Originally Posted by suburbia

It just is a matter of to educate the Trump voters on the basics.

While airports are not devoid of politics in this country (see: possible privatization), Trump has nothing to do with it. And actual Trump voters are a pretty small segment of YYC users.

Keep it out of this forum, please.

[s211]

I'm curious how CTG works when people are on stand-by, or are wait-listed for upgrades.

If you're only supposed to show up at the gate when it's time to board, how does the gate staff also address the processing of stand-by and upgrading passengers?

[zahav]

You don't need to have a CTG system to have a great central area and attract people. YVR has a big international food court, shopping, and services centrally located past security in the international area, which is packed and serves the area well even though people's gates are assigned already. If people want to relax and wait in the central area until the majority of people have boarded, they can, nothing stopping them. I don't see either system as better than the other, I certainly don't see CTG as better since it prevents "standing around at the gate", that's a personal choice people make still. If someone doesn't want to shop or sit in a food court, they should be able to find seating somewhere else. As so many people have said, this isn't a "stupid traveller" problem, it was a design miss that they have to address. Just trying to 'educate' and 'enlighten' travellers rather than address complaints with changes (ie. more seats), may not come off well... PS I'm the first to be amazed at stupidity of people and get frustrated when seemingly easy things are confusing for some, but that's the way it is, and airports have to provide for the most basic uninformed person's comfort.

[lubicon]

Originally Posted by s211

I'm curious how CTG works when people are on stand-by, or are wait-listed for upgrades.

If you're only supposed to show up at the gate when it's time to board, how does the gate staff also address the processing of stand-by and upgrading passengers?

This part intrigues me as well, but from a different perspective. Is it even possible to stand by for an earlier flight on a transborder route given that you have to pre-clear USCPB? If you do not have a confirmed flight will they even let you through? And if so what happens if you are not given a seat on the flight? You are now in a sterile U.S. area?

[Cage]

[QUOTE=s211;7631479]I'm curious how CTG works when people are on stand-by, or are wait-listed for upgrades. /QUOTE]

Most standby travellers are non revenue poeple. Revenue standbys clear at the check-in counter, even under the old terminal approach.

Wait listed upgrades are usually cleared at check-in if there more people than seats on the aircraft (one or more gets upgraded and then the newly freed up economy seat is allocated to the revenue standby.

For instances where the wait listed upgrade is handled at the gate, this is because the its only a matter of where the person is sitting (economy or business class) rather than whether they will make the flight.

For pax wait listed for an upgrade who clear at the gate, the GA will print the BP and hand the pax the new BP when they board the flight. I routinely get notifications that my upgrade cleared while I am at the lounge, and then go down to the gate and get my new BP.

Originally Posted by lubicon

This part intrigues me as well, but from a different perspective. Is it even possible to stand by for an earlier flight on a transborder route given that you have to pre-clear USCPB? If you do not have a confirmed flight will they even let you through? And if so what happens if you are not given a seat on the flight? You are now in a sterile U.S. area?

Technically you can standby for any flight and still go through pre-clearance. If you don't make your flight then you have to see a CBSA officer before exiting the sterile airside area.

In practice, airlines won't let standby pax through pre-clearance unless they have a seat on the airplane. There are a lot of minor but time consuming logistical problems to arrange getting pax rerouted to CBSA.

[Cage]

Originally Posted by casper

No shortage of CASTA people standing around. The barcode zapper person at the entry to the queue, two guarding the exit of the queue holding people back to avoid the lineup at the only open lane. This was necessary since most of the bags before me were being run a second time. In my case, they only ran it one, however I stood there for 5 minutes while the person tried different exposure setting to x-ray my notebook eventually calling another agent over to also look at. The x-ray operator was also upset that my toothpaste might be more than 100 ml. Finally went through, but they had to do the chemical swab thing. The chemical swap person looked at my tooth paste and said "Look this is fine its 100 ml, let me take it but I will bring it back after I show the CASTA x-ray person that there is nothing wrong with it. Sorry." The person I was traveling with also had the same problem.

What about the other CASTA people, there 6-7 other CASTA people standing around watching and waiting.

Your description matches a CATSA on-the-job training event. It wouldnt surprise me to learn that CATSA is losing a lot of screeners because of the new terminal.

Before the terminal was open screeners were consistently assigned the same checkpoint for all their shifts. With the new terminal, screeners are being rapidly deployed to all checkpoints. There is a lot more walking for the screeners.

Its not that screeners are going between A and E, but with WS stationing some domestic flights at C70-72, screeners are having to be rapidly deployed
to cover the movement of pax.

For the new terminal screeners, they can be rapidly deployed to checkpoint D, E, transborder connections, international connections, domestic connections.

Where I can see the screeners complaining is when they go on break but are told to report at new checkpoint after their break. If its a 15 minute break more than half their break time will be spent walking to the new checkpoint.

Finally, a lot of the screeners were hired at the August job fair. Some likely didnt pass training and were let go, some would go through training only to not like the job for various reasons and then quit after two weeks. Some would like the job but not like the customer interactions so they too would quit after two weeks.

All this means that CATSA is likely looking for another 20-50 screeners.