CHICAGO | General Discussions

[marothisu]

Originally Posted by thegoatman

Where is Wicker Park at? So many multi developments in that neighborhood. Reminds me of Williamsburg in Brooklyn.

It's not as dense as you're thinking - between Division, North, Ashland, and Hoyne it's 25,950 ppsm

Now, we were talking about Lakeview before...The area of Lakeview East between Diversey, Broadway, Addison, and LSD has a density of 82,985 ppsm for 26,102 people. That is 3.2X denser than Wicker Park. That area of LVE is on par with some areas of Williamsburg today in terms of density and greater than other parts. Wicker Park density wise at least in the area detailed above is more on par with some of the densest parts of Staten Island.

Also in Edgewater between Thorndale, Sheridan (right south of main part of Loyola campus), Broadway, and the lake is 73,548 ppsm.

[Investing In Chicago]

Originally Posted by marothisu

I mean, there already are pockets that are as dense as Manhattan already..

* The area of South Loop between Roosevelt, 14th, Wabash, and the Metra tracks near LSD is now 131,932 ppsm as of the 2020 Census.

* Streeterville between Michigan, LSD, Ohio, and the River is about 95,000 ppsm as of the 2020 Census. Perhaps next Census it'll be over 100,000 ppsm

* For Gold Coast, the Census Tract between Division, State, Dearborn, and Chicago Ave is over 105K ppsm as of the 2020 census. The tract next to that between Chicago, Division, Wells, and Dearborn is about 76K ppsm too and there's room for growth there too in the next decade.

The tract between Chicago Ave, the river, State, and Dearborn was nearly 84K ppsm as of the 2020 Census. This includes One Chicago which just opened up a few months ago. So if we say the 812 (or so) units would be 90% occupied at 1.5 people per unit, then that alone would push the density over 100K ppsm for that.

* Near Printers Row in South Loop between Harrison, Wells, Roosevelt, and Clark is over 72,000 ppsm. This actually includes the land next to Roosevelt Collection on the river, so it's possible that it's over 80,000 or 90,000 ppsm already even with Dearborn Station nearby. This isn't even including the newly opened Imprint building there and very close by is Riverline, where there's multiple buildings now and probably not all counted in the 2020 Census and especially one with over 400 units U/C right now.

This will probably be over 100K ppsm pretty soon.

It's seems pretty disingenuous to compare density of Manhattan to anywhere in Chicago. Manhattan is essentially an island of 3M people crammed into like 25 sq miles. On daily basis, only 1 in 3 people on the island are residence, I can't imagine anywhere in Chicago (especially the south loop) with density numbers like that.

Even Williamsburg and East Lakeview doesn't pass the sniff test for me. I haven't been to Williamsburg since covid, but I can't think of anything in East Lakeview like the area around Bedford Ave Subway.
I actually find the Southport Corridor to be more vibrant than Broadway in East Lakeview, despite the obviously scaled back built environment.

[marothisu]

Originally Posted by Investing In Chicago

It's seems pretty disingenuous to compare density of Manhattan to anywhere in Chicago. Manhattan is essentially an island of 3M people crammed into like 25 sq miles. On daily basis, only 1 in 3 people on the island are residence, I can't imagine anywhere in Chicago (especially the south loop) with density numbers like that.

Even Williamsburg and East Lakeview doesn't pass the sniff test for me. I haven't been to Williamsburg since covid, but I can't think of anything in East Lakeview like the area around Bedford Ave Subway.
I actually find the Southport Corridor to be more vibrant than Broadway in East Lakeview, despite the obviously scaled back built environment.

I'm not sure why the word "pocket" would evoke such a large response apart from implying something that was completely not said.

We are talking about residential density too, not vibrancy. They're related but separate things. It's a simple formula - numbers of residents divided by the land area in square miles.

Now with that that being said, that POCKET (small) of South Loop I detailed with over 130K ppsm is completely a Manhattan density level. 3 years ago where we lived in Upper West Side had a nearly identical density. But again, it's a pocket, it's small. I never said there's big areas like this. That much is obvious if you know the boundaries.

Regarding Williamsburg. Sure you haven't been there in awhile. I have. We lived 2.5 miles from there for the 3 previous years up until the end of September. I didn't just pull numbers out of my ass. Officially via the 2020 US Census, that part of Williamsburg by Census Tract ranges from 50k ppsm to 90K ppsm which is exactly in line with the official 2020 Census densities for the section of LVE that I half painstakingly calculated with 58 Census Blocks to get its actual true density.

Now whether an area has more visitors hanging out there and how the built environment is/makes one feel is another story, which is what you are talking about and you alone because that's not wholly the same thing as the simple calculation of people(residents) per square mile. But via the 2020 US Census no they're actually pretty similar in terms of residential density between Williamsburg and LVE east of Broadway.

[Briguy]

Originally Posted by thegoatman

Crazy Chicago could have a neighborhood as dense as the ones in Manhattan. Great to see.

Parts of e lake view and Gold Coast are over 100,000ppsm

[thegoatman]

Originally Posted by Briguy

Parts of e lake view and Gold Coast are over 100,000ppsm

Lakeview has too many single family homes, no way any of it has Manhattan density. Same with gold coast. Although gold coast has some high rises.

[marothisu]

Originally Posted by thegoatman

Lakeview has too many single family homes, no way any of it has Manhattan density. Same with gold coast. Although gold coast has some high rises.

Literally the densest true census tract in the entire city is in Gold Coast. I already detailed that in the post before. There are large parts of Lakeview East over 80,000 ppsm right now. Your view of LV is small if you think it's just a bunch of SFH. The eastern part is pretty dense.

[Briguy]

Originally Posted by thegoatman

Lakeview has too many single family homes, no way any of it has Manhattan density. Same with gold coast. Although gold coast has some high rises.

Yeah that’s why I said parts. Lake view east of Broadway north of diversey and south of Addison is probably very close to 100k
Possibly edge water too east of Broadway.

[marothisu]

^ I could see it happening. Fulton Market is the cool new area for people with some disposable income with ample amount of entertainment. It's the most New NYC area that Chicago has and will just continue to attract these types of people as well as startups and the like. It's interesting how much some of these areas in and around downtown have added density. There's some parts of the South Loop now that are 75K - 90K ppsm for example.

[ardecila]

I believe that's based on 2010 data... the "Manhattan density" will likely show up on the 2030 census. It's crazy that Fulton Market will go from being the lowest density to the highest in just 20 years.

Side note, I wish there were a middle scale between census tract and community area to sort the data. A lot of the community areas don't always line up with hard edges in the city - like Near West Side that straddles both sides of the Eisenhower - so it's not enough resolution to see growth areas. But census tracts are too small so you just get a patchwork effect and noise.

[the urban politician]

If a "pocket" of the South Loop has such high residential density, then grocers and bodegas obviously haven't gotten the message yet. Trader Joe's and Jewel still have surface parking

[marothisu]

Originally Posted by the urban politician

If a "pocket" of the South Loop has such high residential density, then grocers and bodegas obviously haven't gotten the message yet. Trader Joe's and Jewel still have surface parking

It's because there's multiple towers that which were only completed in the last small handful of years (or even newer) but have been leased up pretty well. That area though today feels quite a bit denser than it was even 5 years ago, though. From a downtown perspective this might be the densest pocket now or maybe top 3 (there might be a smaller section of Streeterville which is slightly denser IIRC).

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.8644...7i16384!8i8192

[Investing In Chicago]

Originally Posted by marothisu

It's because there's multiple towers that which were only completed in the last small handful of years (or even newer) but have been leased up pretty well. That area though today feels quite a bit denser than it was even 5 years ago, though. From a downtown perspective this might be the densest pocket now or maybe top 3 (there might be a smaller section of Streeterville which is slightly denser IIRC).

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.8644...7i16384!8i8192

At what point is an area so small that it doesn't matter? What you linked is like 15 buildings in 2 linear blocks, i'd wager almost every large city with residential highrises has something similar to that. If you go east or west of that block, the residential density drops significantly.

Again, my point is that comparing density to Manhattan is disingenuous because:
1. the density isn't including all of the people in the neighborhood
2. the area is so tiny that it is basically meaningless

This isn't a better or worse scenario, as I much prefer the scale/pace of Chicago overall, but it just isn't all that meaningful.

[ardecila]

Originally Posted by the urban politician

If a "pocket" of the South Loop has such high residential density, then grocers and bodegas obviously haven't gotten the message yet. Trader Joe's and Jewel still have surface parking

Jewel is behind the times for sure, but Trader Joe's sees equal numbers of walk-ins vs drivers. The drivers are people like me that live a few miles away from South Loop, but it's still the closest TJ's location.

With Jewel having two other locations on Roosevelt (at Canal and Ashland) I wonder if they will look to redevelop this site at some point. I assume there is some CRE landlord in the mix as well.

[marothisu]

Originally Posted by ardecila

Jewel is behind the times for sure, but Trader Joe's sees equal numbers of walk-ins vs drivers. The drivers are people like me that live a few miles away from South Loop, but it's still the closest TJ's location.

With Jewel having two other locations on Roosevelt (at Canal and Ashland) I wonder if they will look to redevelop this site at some point. I assume there is some CRE landlord in the mix as well.

Hopefully Jewel does to that location what it did in the Gold Coast a handful of years ago by allowing a developer to build a tower on it and just put the Jewel back in the ground floor.

2015:
https://www.google.com/maps/@41.9037...7i13312!8i6656

2021:
https://www.google.com/maps/@41.9037...7i16384!8i8192


Also what happened to Treasure Island in LVE recently is promising too - getting rid of that and its parking lot and building something dense from a people and also built environment perspective.

Originally Posted by Investing In Chicago

At what point is an area so small that it doesn't matter? What you linked is like 15 buildings in 2 linear blocks, i'd wager almost every large city with residential highrises has something similar to that. If you go east or west of that block, the residential density drops significantly.

Again, my point is that comparing density to Manhattan is disingenuous because:
1. the density isn't including all of the people in the neighborhood
2. the area is so tiny that it is basically meaningless

This isn't a better or worse scenario, as I much prefer the scale/pace of Chicago overall, but it just isn't all that meaningful.

If you go east of that area? You mean into Soldier Field, Shedd Aquarium, and the lake? Not sure why you would mention EAST of there. Of course it drops in density - nobody lives there!. In any case, it's pretty easy to have a big drop off of density when you're already at 135K ppsm. But the area west of that is still dense by most any standard. Between Roosevelt, State, Michigan, and 15th st (train tracks) is 72,031.6 ppsm.


The following area is 69,748 ppsm. I didn't include Dearborn Park in this and keep in mind this includes the vacant land west of Roosevelt Collection along the river. I can think of 3 high rises currently U/C in this area and another that opened after the census was taken. If we assume 90% of the units will be taken and all things equal and literally no other developments happening, then the area would be at 75k - 80k ppsm density. Given the development going on here in the last handful of years and how there's still multiple vacant lots left, it wouldn't surprise me at all to see this area approaching 100k ppsm or over it in 2030.

No i'm not saying this is Manhattan (though Manhattan as a WHOLE is around 75K ppsm) but this is fairly dense by any standard.

[Investing In Chicago]

Originally Posted by marothisu

Hopefully Jewel does to that location what it did in the Gold Coast a handful of years ago by allowing a developer to build a tower on it and just put the Jewel back in the ground floor.

2015:
https://www.google.com/maps/@41.9037...7i13312!8i6656

2021:
https://www.google.com/maps/@41.9037...7i16384!8i8192


Also what happened to Treasure Island in LVE recently is promising too - getting rid of that and its parking lot and building something dense from a people and also built environment perspective.




If you go east of that area? You mean into Soldier Field, Shedd Aquarium, and the lake? Not sure why you would mention EAST of there. Of course it drops in density - nobody lives there!. In any case, it's pretty easy to have a big drop off of density when you're already at 135K ppsm. But the area west of that is still dense by most any standard. Between Roosevelt, State, Michigan, and 15th st (train tracks) is 72,031.6 ppsm.


The following area is 69,748 ppsm. I didn't include Dearborn Park in this and keep in mind this includes the vacant land west of Roosevelt Collection along the river. I can think of 3 high rises currently U/C in this area and another that opened after the census was taken. If we assume 90% of the units will be taken and all things equal and literally no other developments happening, then the area would be at 75k - 80k ppsm density. Given the development going on here in the last handful of years and how there's still multiple vacant lots left, it wouldn't surprise me at all to see this area approaching 100k ppsm or over it in 2030.

No i'm not saying this is Manhattan (though Manhattan as a WHOLE is around 75K ppsm) but this is fairly dense by any standard.

Well east of what you posted isn't the lakefront, it would be Indiana and Prairie, which are relatively low density.

My point is, even the area Between Roosevelt, State, Michigan, and 15th st is pretty tiny. I'm not arguing that it isn't dense, because it is dense.

[marothisu]

Originally Posted by Investing In Chicago

Well east of what you posted isn't the lakefront, it would be Indiana and Prairie, which are relatively low density.

My point is, even the area Between Roosevelt, State, Michigan, and 15th st is pretty tiny. I'm not arguing that it isn't dense, because it is dense.

You misread what I wrote as far as the boundaries. I included to the Metra Tracks which is east of Indiana

Originally Posted by marothisu

..
The area of South Loop between Roosevelt, 14th, Wabash, and the Metra tracks near LSD is now 131,932 ppsm as of the 2020 Census.

..

It's definitely a small area relatively (hence why I used the word "pocket" and not "neighborhood" but still pretty dense. Regardless, removing at least the weirdness of Dearborn Park down to 14th st, South Loop is already at 70k ppsm. Give it 10 years and don't be surprised if that area is > 100k ppsm by then.

[the urban politician]

^ Totally!

The Jewel and the BP station near Roosevelt/Wabash are ABSOLUTE PRIME sites for some serious density

[Chi-Sky21]

We can never be inferior to New York, we have alleys and do not leave our garbage on the street.

[left of center]

Originally Posted by Chi-Sky21

We can never be inferior to New York, we have alleys and do not leave our garbage on the street.

Alleys, while very useful from an urban planning perspective, are not the only defining feature making a city great. By your logic, St. Louis is a superior city to NYC because it has alleys while most of NYC does not.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by Chi-Sky21

We can never be inferior to New York, we have alleys and do not leave our garbage on the street.

Textbook.