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  #1  
Old Posted Jul 31, 2014, 3:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Berklon View Post
I'm curious who the star NFL players were that were busts in the CFL. I haven't followed the CFL in a while, so I don't know.
Don't have time to look them up but there have been a lot of them. He's not pulling your leg.

I mean, the field size and rules are different. Most players can adapt well but some cannot.

Obviously this situation would not occur if the CFL and NFL had the exact same rules.
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  #2  
Old Posted Jul 31, 2014, 4:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Berklon View Post
I'm curious who the star NFL players were that were busts in the CFL.
Off the top of my head:

Vince Ferragamo
Mark Gastineau
Dexter Manley
Ricky Williams
Andre Rison


I think the only measurable difference between CFL and NFL players are the size of the players, not their skills or speed. Smaller guys have more of a struggle on the smaller NFL field, and larger guys struggle more on the larger CFL field. There are players in the CFL today who can catch the ball and run circles around NFL players, but just lack the size.

Plus, the NFL is in the business of marketing and making money. There are a lot of politics involved in US football. There are a lot of teams who would rather sign a big name "celebrity" player to a huge contract, and take the bigger TV ratings, and more jersey and merchandise sales by playing him a lot, than sign some no-name from Canada who would actually do a better job on the field.

I watch both CFL and NFL. I just think football is a great sport, and it's an absolute sin that the CFL doesn't get more respect.
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  #3  
Old Posted Jul 31, 2014, 5:59 PM
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Originally Posted by MrOilers View Post
Off the top of my head:

Vince Ferragamo
Mark Gastineau
Dexter Manley
Ricky Williams
Andre Rison
Really?

Vince Ferragamo had troubles with interceptions and was a bust in the CFL after being decent in the NFL. But when he came back to the NFL he wasn't as good anyway.

The others were washed up ex-NFL stars when they came to the CFL. If they were still good, they would've still been playing in the NFL. A true comparison would be to bring a current star NFL player (ie. Aaron Rogers, Calvin Johnson, Adrian Peterson, etc) to the CFL to see how they fair. The problem is no CFL team can afford to pay what a star player would be willing to come over for.

I hope you're also not considering Chad Johnson a star player as well.

Last edited by Berklon; Jul 31, 2014 at 6:41 PM.
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  #4  
Old Posted Jul 31, 2014, 4:07 PM
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NFL would have zero impact on the Argos. The Argos took a blow when the Blue Jays came and many say they never recovered from it but the NFL and CFL are two different products. It's Leas and Marlies, families will go to an Argos game and get good value while the Bay Street and suits will go to the NFL games. You would get some marginal tourist traffic also. Canadians whom are fans of X team would travel here to see the Toronto NFL team play them. When the Falcons where here a bunch of Canadian Falcon fans made the trip for that game here.

NFL is strange though. I still don't understand the obsession with London as the WFL/NFL Europe flamed out there. They could have a division in Germany and it would actually perform well since Germans and the Dutch were the only ones whom actually embraced the American product with support and money. If I was the NFL I would just take the Super Bowl international first. Play a game at Wembley one year and squeeze cooperate money out of the Brits, go to Amsterdam, next Berlin, and cycle these European cities in 4 cycles with American cities each other year. The NBA flirted with having all-star weekend in Paris, which makes sense. I never understood why they don't export they showcase events instead of silly ideas to have franchises which are a overnight flight away.

Cart before the horse with the NFL. Ignoring the grassroots money they poured into grass roots football in Germany which has still to this day a well run domestic league. The London domestic league looks like a glorified senior beer league versus the professional German one. Roger Goddell to me seams clueless in chasing this London fetish.
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  #5  
Old Posted Jul 31, 2014, 4:14 PM
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If I was the NFL I would just take the Super Bowl international first. Play a game at Wembley one year and squeeze cooperate money out of the Brits, go to Amsterdam, next Berlin, and cycle these European cities in 4 cycles with American cities each other year. The NBA flirted with having all-star weekend in Paris, which makes sense. I never understood why they don't export they showcase events instead of silly ideas to have franchises which are a overnight flight away.

.
This is actually a really good idea. At first I thought that the NFL would get crapped from the owners and mayors who will be deprived of hosting the Super Bowl in their cities but in reality less than half a dozen American or NFL cities really get to host the Super Bowl with any regularity. It's always a back and forth between Miami, New Orleans, and a few others.

Most NFL cities never have and never will host a Super Bowl.
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Old Posted Jul 31, 2014, 4:25 PM
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Most NFL cities never have and never will host a Super Bowl.
Super Bowls will continue to be used as inducements to get cities to build new stadiums. For instance, Minneapolis-St. Paul and SF will each host one in their new venues, and Atlanta likely will too when the time comes.

But yeah, for the most part it will keep doing the warm weather Miami-New Orleans-Tampa circuit.
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  #7  
Old Posted Jul 31, 2014, 5:10 PM
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Originally Posted by esquire View Post
Super Bowls will continue to be used as inducements to get cities to build new stadiums. For instance, Minneapolis-St. Paul and SF will each host one in their new venues, and Atlanta likely will too when the time comes.

But yeah, for the most part it will keep doing the warm weather Miami-New Orleans-Tampa circuit.

Warm weather, or northern cities with covered/retractable roof stadiums (Detroit, Indy). The last one in NJ was a one-off (thanks from Roger for building a $1.6billion stadium!).
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Old Posted Jul 31, 2014, 6:59 PM
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Wait, are you guys saying that there are people in Niagara that cheer for the Sabres? I would have thought absolutely everybody right to the border would be a Leafs fan.
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  #9  
Old Posted Jul 31, 2014, 7:06 PM
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As far as I know the Leaf's fanbase doesn't extend too far away from the GTA. My mom always said growing up in Sarnia that the Redwings were more popular anywhere west of London.
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  #10  
Old Posted Jul 31, 2014, 7:13 PM
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As far as I know the Leaf's fanbase doesn't extend too far away from the GTA. My mom always said growing up in Sarnia that the Redwings were more popular anywhere west of London.
Depends in which direction you go.

North it extends pretty far, though many cities with large Franco-Ontarian populations are a mix of Leafs and Habs fans.

It also extends east to the fringes of Ottawa's zone of influence and even into the Senators' backyard in the Upper Ottawa Valley.
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  #11  
Old Posted Jul 31, 2014, 7:07 PM
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Wait, are you guys saying that there are people in Niagara that cheer for the Sabres? I would have thought absolutely everybody right to the border would be a Leafs fan.
I remember seeing ads for Sabres tickets in St. Catharines. The Sabres clearly market to the area east of Hamilton on the Niagara Peninsula.

It isn't exactly surprising considering a) that Buffalo is closer than Toronto, b) tickets are readily available for Sabres games, and c) the Sabres have been around for over 40 years so they have had time to develop a solid fanbase.
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  #12  
Old Posted Jul 31, 2014, 7:20 PM
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As far as I know the Leaf's fanbase doesn't extend too far away from the GTA. My mom always said growing up in Sarnia that the Redwings were more popular anywhere west of London.
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Originally Posted by esquire View Post
I remember seeing ads for Sabres tickets in St. Catharines. The Sabres clearly market to the area east of Hamilton on the Niagara Peninsula.

It isn't exactly surprising considering a) that Buffalo is closer than Toronto, b) tickets are readily available for Sabres games, and c) the Sabres have been around for over 40 years so they have had time to develop a solid fanbase.
It's just surprising because the Sabres play in another country. To use a Vancouver example, while the Mariners definitely have a presence here, the Blue Jays are still much more popular, despite being way farther. People want to cheer for Canadian teams.
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  #13  
Old Posted Jul 31, 2014, 7:25 PM
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It's just surprising because the Sabres play in another country. To use a Vancouver example, while the Mariners definitely have a presence here, the Blue Jays are still much more popular, despite being way farther. People want to cheer for Canadian teams.
Not all Canadians regard that place over there as being another country. At least not in the way "another country" is meant to most people around the world.
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  #14  
Old Posted Jul 31, 2014, 7:33 PM
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It's just surprising because the Sabres play in another country. To use a Vancouver example, while the Mariners definitely have a presence here, the Blue Jays are still much more popular, despite being way farther. People want to cheer for Canadian teams.
The regional pull can't be underestimated. I'd say that the most popular MLB team in Manitoba is basically whichever of the Twins or Blue Jays has been better over the past few years.

I'm actually surprised that there would be more Jays fans than Mariners fans in BC. If there was a MLB team a couple of hours away in North Dakota I'd probably be behind them 100%.

Besides, not everyone wants to cheer for a Canadian team... Toronto cheers for the Bills instead of their own football team
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  #15  
Old Posted Jul 31, 2014, 7:48 PM
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Not all Canadians regard that place over there as being another country. At least not in the way "another country" is meant to most people around the world.
Yeah I guess it's not quite the same but it's just what I've found here. Most non bandwagoning basketball fans I know cheer for the Raptors, even when they were bad, despite the Trailblazers and earlier, the Supersonics being much closer. I think that's why it's hard for me to wrap my head around Niagara cheering for the Sabres. Every time it's been brought up that a Hamilton team would steal Buffalo's fan base I thought they were just talking nonsense, I was so sure nobody watched them in Ontario. I had no idea it'd be a number as high as 15% of their attendance.

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Originally Posted by esquire View Post
The regional pull can't be underestimated. I'd say that the most popular MLB team in Manitoba is basically whichever of the Twins or Blue Jays has been better over the past few years.

I'm actually surprised that there would be more Jays fans than Mariners fans in BC. If there was a MLB team a couple of hours away in North Dakota I'd probably be behind them 100%.

Besides, not everyone wants to cheer for a Canadian team... Toronto cheers for the Bills instead of their own football team
I don't know, the fact that all the Blue Jays games are on TV probably has something to do with it, but I'd say that if you were talking to a baseball fan here, 9 times out of 10 they'll root for the Blue Jays.
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  #16  
Old Posted Aug 1, 2014, 1:58 AM
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Here is my contribution from a source that would know, re the NFL/CFL debate. He has forgotten more about football than anyone here would know. Doug Flutie played in the CFL almost 20 years ago when Canadian talent was nowhere near as good as it has become due to the "professionalizing" of many Canadian college football programs since his heyday, so the caliber of the Canadian trained player has gotten better

‘You couldn’t tell me winning a Super Bowl would feel any nicer’
In eight CFL seasons, Doug Flutie was named Most Outstanding Player six times. He played in four Grey Cups, winning three. TSN voted him the greatest player of all time. Here’s why Canada’s brand of football is No. 1 in his heart
Doug Flutie SI MMQB July 2014

I miss playing in the CFL, no doubt about it. Boy, it was a lot of fun. People in America have no clue what goes on up there, or about the quality of football we had. That’s what made the experience for me. Most of the guys were NFL-caliber talent, but were undersized or just didn’t fit the mold in one way or another.

My CFL career started in 1990, with the BC Lions, and I didn’t know what to expect. But I could tell I was going to be viewed as a backup in the NFL, and you only have so many years to play this game, and I wanted to play. So I figured I’d give the CFL a whirl. When I first went up to Canada, I thought I’d put in two years up there and then try to get back to the NFL. But I enjoyed it so much, I wound up making a career out of it.

The game in Canada was more exciting, more explosive, more wide open. It was what the NFL is now becoming. We were going no huddle, over the ball, from the time I got up there. No-back sets, six wide receivers, throwing the ball all over the field. There is a 20-second clock between plays rather than 40. It just creates a pace that the NFL is now realizing to be more exciting—and actually more effective. The NFL is turning into a no-huddle, up-tempo, fast-paced, throw-the-football type of game now. The CFL has been that for the past 30 years.

By the time I finished up in the CFL, I was basically my own offensive coordinator, calling all the plays on the field. We had our playbook, but I had my ideas from watching film during the week of game-planning and seeing things on the field. My whole theory at quarterback was to keep my receivers from having to think too much. Let them just be full speed and go. Rather than making them read everything on the fly and then adjusting, I would give them a route and they would just run it. I told them, “I’ll deal with the pressure, I’ll deal with the hot reads, I’ll build something in where I’ll get rid of the ball quickly.”

When I played in Toronto, we were playing a regular-season game against Edmonton, and I called a quarterback draw. The running back, Robert Drummond, was going to run a swing route to try to pull a linebacker with him. But the linebacker lined up on the edge, and it was an all-out blitz, so there was nothing in the middle of the field. It was either going to be a touchdown or we were going to be stopped at the line of scrimmage. Drummond was faster than I was, so just before the ball was snapped, in the middle of my cadence, I said, “Hey, just jump in and take the snap direct and run the draw.” He busted it for like a 70-yard touchdown.

Another time, we were going into the Grey Cup against Saskatchewan in 1997, and they had been giving us headaches with their zone blitzes. Instead of changing all of our pass protections and really worrying about it, I built in a hitch screen. Every time they came with a blitz from one side of the field, I would just turn and throw the hitch screen. They tried to zone blitz three or four times in the first quarter, and we averaged like 18 yards a catch off this silly little hitch screen to a back or wide receiver. And they quit doing it. We just lit them up. We scored a mess of points and had a really efficient day.

To do that in the NFL, though, it would probably have to be a coordinator’s idea. And then you would have to clear it with the offensive line coach, to make sure you can block all this stuff. Then you would have to execute it a couple of days in practice, and if it looked OK, it would make its way into the game plan. In the CFL, I was in a position where if I saw something in the middle of the game, I could just put it in without having to ask anybody. As long as you keep it simple enough, guys can just react and go. The NFL, for years, has been a copycat league. A coach would have to see something be successful elsewhere before he was willing to try it—and the league has been very slow to change because of that.

I’ll tell you what drove me nuts more than anything: I went from calling my own plays in the CFL, then back to the NFL for eight seasons, where I had a radio in my helmet and as soon as one play ended, the coaches were talking to you in the helmet for 20 seconds. It took so long to get a play call in, and your first thought was, What is the coach looking for? rather than, What do I want to do here?

During my days with the Buffalo Bills, we were a running, play-action team that played really good defense in low-scoring games. You adapt, and you do it that way. But boy, the mindset was different. When I was in the CFL, I was very aggressive. Aggressive in my play-calling; aggressive in my decision-making. In the NFL, I became much more passive, trying to do what I thought the coaches wanted me to do all the time.

Of course, when you’ve got a Peyton Manning, a Tom Brady or a Drew Brees—a guy who has been in an offense for a number of years—the trust factor goes up. The coaches start letting go of the reins and let quarterbacks have much more of a say. But I never got to that point with an NFL team, where I was there long enough (or starting long enough) to gain that trust. In the NFL, with what’s at stake money-wise and the pressure on coaches, they want total control because their necks are on the line.

In the CFL, it was more of a game. And it was a lot more fun. The length of the workday really helped with that, too. By CBA rule, they could only keep us there 4½ hours. In the NFL, it’s 10- to 12-hour days, every day, and it becomes a grind. I know the NFL is a big business, and it’s getting more complicated and tougher, but the burnout level, especially for quarterbacks, is crazy. I just wish there were some way around that, to somehow keep the fun in the game.

I was actually, for a while, making more money in the CFL working a 4½ hour workday than I would have in the NFL with a 12-hour workday. And I was in total control of the offense. You can see why I enjoyed it so much. I’d go in around 10 a.m., watch some film on my own and do some game-planning, grab lunch, and then start the day with the team at 1 p.m. We’d end by 5:30.

I’m pretty sure the trajectory of my career would have been different today. I would have been in a position to be more successful in the NFL running some of these current styles of offenses, and I think an NFL team would have been more open to turning me into a franchise guy if things went well. I was always viewed by NFL teams as a band-aid: A guy who could help us win, keep us competitive, and while he’s doing that, we’re going to go find our franchise quarterback. It has turned into a little bit different mentality now with the success of guys like Brees and Russell Wilson, and the success of the spread offenses in the NFL.

But the CFL gave me so much. When I left Toronto for Buffalo, I was 35 and I was ready to retire. I figured I’d come back to the NFL for maybe a year or two, just to prove I could do it. I ended up playing another eight years. That was just crazy. The CFL gave me the opportunity to be a starter, regain my confidence, and then come back and be a starter in the NFL. And, I got to play eight games with my younger brother, Darren. We were both with the BC Lions in 1991.

Another thing I’ll always remember is how fanatical the fans are up in Canada. Especially in some of the smaller markets, this is their football and they love their teams. You can draw a parallel with just about every city to a team in America. Saskatchewan reminds me a lot of Green Bay. They live for their team. Hamilton, with its blue-collar fans, is Pittsburgh. Calgary would be Denver—you’re at an altitude, and everybody who goes into Calgary to play is out of breath.

Calgary is where I won my first CFL championship, in 1992. We played against Edmonton in the Western final to go to the Grey Cup, and we had to drive the length of the field, into the wind, in the last seconds to win that game. I ended up running the ball in from a few yards out for the winning score. That was my shining moment that season.

Then we played the Grey Cup in Toronto, and I just remember dominating the game against Winnipeg. The last minute or two, I was standing on the sideline with Dave Sapunjis, my receiver and best friend on the team, putting on our Grey Cup champions hats, and playing to our crowd behind our bench. It was just a moment in time for me. You couldn’t tell me winning a Super Bowl would feel any nicer.

Last edited by elly63; Aug 1, 2014 at 2:08 AM.
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  #17  
Old Posted Aug 1, 2014, 9:30 PM
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Apropos of nothing, it is currently August and the Blue Jays hold a playoff spot. Just thought that needed to be said.
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  #18  
Old Posted Aug 4, 2014, 12:59 AM
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Score Golf came out with their Top 100 for 2014. While it is far from a great way to rank courses and is really a ranking on how good a lot of GMs are at buttering up the rankers, it's always fun to talk about.

http://scoregolf.com/the100/2014-top-100-ranking/

Of the Top 10 only two courses didn't have any 'Canadian Content' in their design (National GC by the Fazio's and Hamilton GC by Colt)and 18 of the top 25 were also Canadian designs. Plus 5 of the top 10 are public, which is nice for people trying to see some of Canada's most unique courses..unless you're in Ontario anyway where you have more options than you know what to do with, but all the best ones are private.
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  #19  
Old Posted Aug 4, 2014, 9:02 AM
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Score Golf came out with their Top 100 for 2014. While it is far from a great way to rank courses and is really a ranking on how good a lot of GMs are at buttering up the rankers, it's always fun to talk about.
Stanley Thompson sure got around didn't he?
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  #20  
Old Posted Aug 4, 2014, 5:52 PM
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Score Golf came out with their Top 100 for 2014. While it is far from a great way to rank courses and is really a ranking on how good a lot of GMs are at buttering up the rankers, it's always fun to talk about.

http://scoregolf.com/the100/2014-top-100-ranking/

Of the Top 10 only two courses didn't have any 'Canadian Content' in their design (National GC by the Fazio's and Hamilton GC by Colt)and 18 of the top 25 were also Canadian designs. Plus 5 of the top 10 are public, which is nice for people trying to see some of Canada's most unique courses..unless you're in Ontario anyway where you have more options than you know what to do with, but all the best ones are private.
It's nice to see my favourite course Greywolf (Panorama, BC) finally getting some love on this list:


The one problem I still have with the list is that it's still so Ontario heavy. Obviously there are more golf courses there due to the population and I'm assuming the majority of the people who do the ratings live in Ontario, but so many of the courses there don't compare with the natural setting and terrain variation that we see out west or on the east coast.
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