Broadway Corridor Development Plan

[GenWhy?]

Originally Posted by Vin

There are always plans everywhere in Vancouver, including the Broadway area. It's just that they are terrible plans, especially when compared to the more progressive suburb developments. Therefore I'm afraid this round of new plans won't be too different from the previous ones, and won't be bringing too much economic and density benefits if they keep having restrictive policies. There is also no excuse why the City had been delaying letting Broadway area go higher density until the skytrain is about to be built. The area should have started building bigger even 30 years ago.

Are you referring to Zoning by-laws? And I agree, most of the City has zoning and Community Visions from the 90's City Plan (not a real plan that affects being able to develop) are both outdated (some zoning is 100 years old) and incomplete. Hence where planning is headed lately.

Behind the scenes conversations on Broadway have been very fruitful. It's been good to maintain multiple redevelopable land in the hands of multiple landowners and developers rather than a select few like the suburban TOD's, IMO.

[Changing City]

Originally Posted by Vin

Now that they are going to rezone to make Broadway even higher density, wouldn't those recently constructed buildings be a real waste as they are way underbuilt on prime land to be served by rapid transit? "1,300 units of dwellings" really makes me laugh, especially when they are built over a period of two decades along more than 10 blocks of cross streets of the Broadway corridor. Do you know that four-40-storey apartment or condo buildings can easily achieve 1,300 dwelling? Yeah, just like that. Metrotown alone has probably achieved at least 5,000 new residential units within the last 10 years.

You may think that what's happening there is a major achievement, but you are totally underestimating what this city can achieve, way under.

Why do you have to be so extreme in your comments, and why do you make things up? I didn't say, or suggest 3,800 units (1,300 on West Broadway itself) was a 'major achievement'. I was merely pointing out that, while you might think adding 3,800 units to an already relatively densely developed area is 'almost nothing', the street doesn't look 'about the same' in some places.

The idea that we should have allowed Metrotown heights before there's any idea of when transit will be built would have been irresponsible. And while residential densities on the already developed sites are probably a bit lower than they'll be allowed to go in future, they're around 3 FSR of residential space. I don't know what you think Metrotown is at, but as I read the Plan for that area it maxes out at 5 FSR (and quite a bit less in many parts). There are already buildings like 700 W8th in the Broadway corridor at over 6 FSR, and the West Broadway rental tower, if it's approved, will be over 10 FSR - way more than anything in Burnaby.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Again, given that the entire Metrotown redevelopment so far has only 3,110 units even with two metro stations and almost twice the FSR, Broadway is pretty impressive.

[misher]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Again, given that the entire Metrotown redevelopment so far has only 3,110 units even with two metro stations, Broadway is pretty impressive.

Its the second biggest employment centre in BC, our next transit corridor, and is connected to our biggest employment centre by a short walk over the bridge. Its also beside our biggest hospital and is relatively centre to the entire city. Its clear to most that Broadway has massive potential, unlike downtown its not a traffic gridlock and the city actually has a chance to plan its growth instead of coming in after the fact. Plus many buildings are 1-3 storey commercial which few will miss. Also there is a number of retail spaces along connecting streets like Granville.

The idea that we should have allowed Metrotown heights before there's any idea of when transit will be built would have been irresponsible. And while residential densities on the already developed sites are probably a bit lower than they'll be allowed to go in future, they're around 3 FSR of residential space. I don't know what you think Metrotown is at, but as I read the Plan for that area it maxes out at 5 FSR (and quite a bit less in many parts). There are already buildings like 700 W8th in the Broadway corridor at over 6 FSR, and the West Broadway rental tower, if it's approved, will be over 10 FSR - way more than anything in Burnaby.

I completely agree that we should build before the skytrain is done, not after. Why wait when you have a housing crisis? It also seems dumb that the stations are rezoning under the old rules when we all know they will have to go through the process again once the new rules come out. Unfortunately this seems to be an argument that has already lost. Major development on Broadway is predicted, but it likely won't be seen for another decade.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Commuted on Cambie recently? Massive backups due to individual projects shutting off three lanes at once. We're going to need the Millennium to handle all the traffic while the corridor gets built out.

As for South Granville station, it's a placeholder application. Smart move - instead of waiting a year for a rezone that may or may not cramp their final plan, they can roll out a temp plan and interest buyers early on.

[Changing City]

Originally Posted by misher

I completely agree that we should build before the skytrain is done, not after. Why wait when you have a housing crisis? It also seems dumb that the stations are rezoning under the old rules when we all know they will have to go through the process again once the new rules come out. Unfortunately this seems to be an argument that has already lost. Major development on Broadway is predicted, but it likely won't be seen for another decade.

OK. I'm GenWhy?, and I have a potential development site on West Broadway between two stations. How big a building can I build, how tall can it go, and what proportion of non-market housing am I expected to develop (if any)? Oh, and what are the winning Lotto 6/49 numbers for next week? Thanks.

[Vin]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

There is every excuse. If you're fearful of carmageddon when the viaducts are gone, you should be even more so about extending downtown's density without the people-moving infrastructure to support it.



Try reading, not skimming and guessing; 1,300 on Broadway plus 2,500 off Broadway is 3,800 units. That's more than Metrotown - as of October 2019, Station Square has 1,800 and Concord Metro has 1,310, or 3,110.

Same article has 7,500+ units planned for Cambie (to say nothing of the off-site zoning), and the same can be expected of Broadway. The idea that Vancouver is lagging isn't supported by the numbers.

On the other hand, if Broadway were much denser 30 years ago, the skytrian line extension would probably have been built there already, as there wouldn't be a need for skytrain extension so far out to the suburbs. It's all about the priority of where funding should go for the last 3 decades. You just highlight how Vancouver is always falling behind, so much so that the suburbs are catching up so quickly.

Hah! 3,800 units? Again big deal. It could've been 20,000 units.

[Vin]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Again, given that the entire Metrotown redevelopment so far has only 3,110 units even with two metro stations and almost twice the FSR, Broadway is pretty impressive.

I don't know how you twist the truth to show that there are only 3,110 units in Metrotown, remembering that it is only a suburban bedroom community. You only consider Station Square and Concord Metrotown developments? What about the 10 to 20 towers recently built in Metrotown, have you considered those too?

Your desperate grasp at straws for this argument is actually pretty hilarious.

[misher]

https://vancouversun.com/opinion/columni...plan-could-result-in-provincial-pressure

Horgan has made it clear that if Vancouver fails to densify around Broadway stations he will force the issue. So we know density is coming all Vancouver can do is delay.

The last point in the plan commits to working with “TransLink and local governments in Metro Vancouver to increase density and improve the availability of affordable housing around transit stations.”

What if good intentions aren’t enough to expedite project approvals and get things built? Premier John Horgan was asked Thursday....

As for the other side of the equation, said Horgan, “bringing on more supply has been a challenge for a number of years and we need to address that.

“I believe we have a mandate to do what we can to get people off the street and into affordable accessible housing, and we’re going to do that.”

He’d prefer it be accomplished through co-operation: “We’re going to also work as much as we can with local representatives to make sure that can happen. But in the case of Maple Ridge, the obstruction was beyond what I believe to be reasonable.”

On density, Horgan acknowledged some reluctance from local governments.

“The challenge is some municipal councils want to have it both ways,” he conceded Thursday. “They want to demand provincial participation, provincial dollars, whether it be on SkyTrain or other forms of transit — but not make the same choices about how do we take advantage of those significant transit investments to building housing around that transportation corridor.”

He also noted the changing political landscape at the local level. In the advance of last fall’s civic elections, Horgan endorsed the SkyTrain extension in Vancouver and light rail in Surrey.

Then along came new councils, which in Surrey meant a shift to SkyTrain and in Vancouver a call for extending the line all the way to UBC.

“People are finding their way, new councils, new mayors have to find out what they can and can’t do,” said the premier. “We are committed to building housing, we are committed to building transit, (and) they really do go together.”

What if local government balks at provincial priorities on housing while still wanting the province to pay for the transit?

Vancouver’s chief city planner recently told the Globe and Mail how “we have held the line” against pressure for increased density as a way to help pay for the SkyTrain extension.

“We are not funding the line through charges on extra density,” Gil Kelley told reporter Frances Bula. “We’ve been pushing back pretty hard.”

At what point, I asked Horgan, does the province tie its transit dollars to specific targets for density and types of housing?

It is too soon for that, with newly elected mayors and councils all over Metro Vancouver, indicated the premier.

“It’s reasonable for us to wait that out and see, those who want to work with us, will work with us and those who don’t, well we’ll have to find another way.”

[logan5]

Originally Posted by Vin

You just highlight how Vancouver is always falling behind, so much so that the suburbs are catching up so quickly.

The numbers speak for themselves. Between the 2011 and 2016 census, Burnaby grew by 9 535, while Vancouver grew by 27 990. It's not even close.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by Vin

I don't know how you twist the truth to show that there are only 3,110 units in Metrotown, remembering that it is only a suburban bedroom community. You only consider Station Square and Concord Metrotown developments? What about the 10 to 20 towers recently built in Metrotown, have you considered those too?

10-20? Wasn't aware we were counting mid-90's development. But fair's fair, adding seven-odd completed projects to the mix is roughly 1,700 more units (out of courtesy, I'll exclude Olympic Village, which is well within the equivalent catchment range). I will concede that Metrotown at its fastest has moderately outdone than Broadway at its slowest. Still not sure where "at least 5,000 new residential units" comes from.

This suburban bedroom community has been repeatedly touted as Burnaby's new downtown, set to rival Vancouver. Burnaby Council was intent on catching up to Vancouver, evictions be damned; Vancouver Council is intent on planning a healthy city that includes both current residents and newcomers.

Originally Posted by Vin

On the other hand, if Broadway were much denser 30 years ago, the skytrian line extension would probably have been built there already, as there wouldn't be a need for skytrain extension so far out to the suburbs. It's all about the priority of where funding should go for the last 3 decades. You just highlight how Vancouver is always falling behind, so much so that the suburbs are catching up so quickly.

Hah! 3,800 units? Again big deal. It could've been 20,000 units.

That's a chicken-or-egg argument, and an unfounded one. The reason for the lack of SkyTrain on Broadway is politics - what really would've happened in this scenario is Gordon Campbell & Christy Clark still screwing Vancouver on transit, and Broadway now having tens of thousands of residents with no way to move them except buses and cars.

20,000 units? Even counting the pre-millennium towers, and building as fast as possible, Metrotown has 12,000 today. Seems clear that your opinion isn't based on urbanism or even ambition, but 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵 envy.

[squeezied]

I've got to say... Vin is by far my favorite person in this forum (not for the reasons he'd like though). May the #VinLogic continue!

[Vin]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

10-20? Wasn't aware we were counting mid-90's development. But fair's fair, adding seven-odd completed projects to the mix is roughly 1,700 more units (out of courtesy, I'll exclude Olympic Village, which is well within the equivalent catchment range). I will concede that Metrotown at its fastest has moderately outdone than Broadway at its slowest. Still not sure where "at least 5,000 new residential units" comes from.

This suburban bedroom community has been repeatedly touted as Burnaby's new downtown, set to rival Vancouver. Burnaby Council was intent on catching up to Vancouver, evictions be damned; Vancouver Council is intent on planning a healthy city that includes both current residents and newcomers.

That's a chicken-or-egg argument, and an unfounded one. The reason for the lack of SkyTrain on Broadway is politics - what really would've happened in this scenario is Gordon Campbell & Christy Clark still screwing Vancouver on transit, and Broadway now having tens of thousands of residents with no way to move them except buses and cars.

20,000 units? Even counting the pre-millennium towers, and building as fast as possible, Metrotown has 12,000 today. Seems clear that your opinion isn't based on urbanism or even ambition, but 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵 envy.

Not counting 90s at all. If I were to include that, the number would be way more. Just to casually name a few completed and currently under construction in Metrotown within the last 5 years:

*Element Hotel and Residences
*Moda
*Silver
*Gold House (2 blocks under construction)
*Modello
*Metroplace
*Sun Towers (2 blocks under construction)
*Station Square (3 blocks completed, 3 more coming online)
*Nelson Ave neighbourhood (4 completed towers, 2 - 3 under construction)
*Central Park Place
*Sussex (under construction)

These ones alone would provide way more than 5,000 residential units, and I'm not even mentioning about the huge development at the Sears site, or the other ones recently approved.

Metrotown (even Surrey Central) is fast becoming Metro Van's second downtown only because of Vancouver's inept urban planning and development policies, nothing more. I don't think you know the definition of 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵 envy.

Originally Posted by squeezied

I've got to say... Vin is by far my favorite person in this forum (not for the reasons he'd like though). May the #VinLogic continue!

Troll

[Vin]

Originally Posted by logan5

The numbers speak for themselves. Between the 2011 and 2016 census, Burnaby grew by 9 535, while Vancouver grew by 27 990. It's not even close.

What are you quoting? You mean the number of Nimbies in action? That I believe.

And provide source please.

[Vin]

Originally Posted by misher

https://vancouversun.com/opinion/columni...plan-could-result-in-provincial-pressure

Horgan has made it clear that if Vancouver fails to densify around Broadway stations he will force the issue. So we know density is coming all Vancouver can do is delay.

So I don't why these forumers are still denying it.

[GenWhy?]

Originally Posted by Vin

So I don't why these forumers are still denying it.

That more development is coming whether a Plan were to happen or not? Or that a Plan is being developed in one of the most dense housing and job areas of the Lower Mainland?

The workings of the Plan are quite positive. More so than the booting of hundreds from their apartments in Metrotown with hardly anywhere to do and sub-standard tenant relocation and protection policies. Which changed because of that level of displacement from the Plan.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by Vin

Not counting 90s at all. If I were to include that, the number would be way more. Just to casually name a few completed and currently under construction in Metrotown within the last 5 years:

These ones alone would provide way more than 5,000 residential units, and I'm not even mentioning about the huge development at the Sears site, or the other ones recently approved.

Metrotown (even Surrey Central) is fast becoming Metro Van's second downtown only because of Vancouver's inept urban planning and development policies, nothing more.

So we've moved the goalposts to incompletes and concepts. Okay: 2538 Birch, 130 West Broadway, 1780 East Broadway, Canada Earth, South Granville Station, and dozens of >20-storeys that are invisible to you but nevertheless provide thousands of homes. Even Cornwall and Alma are getting in on the action, whereas low to midrise development outside of the SkyTrain catchments is practically nonexistent. Where's the walkups on Willingdon? Or does Burnaby's forward planning only apply to easy spot zonings like malls and warehouses?

The town centres can and should develop; the old spoke-hub paradigm where everybody lives in the suburbs and works/shops/plays downtown is unsustainable, and we need other downtowns in the region.
What we don't need is a mayor like Corrigan, greedy for construction fees, clear-cutting functioning urban centres like the Metrotown Mall and the community around it just because. Future generations won't marvel at the (no longer) shiny new towers, they'll ask Burnaby Council why the hell they didn't try to balance new with old like Vancouver Council did with Broadway.

Originally Posted by Vin

I don't think you know the definition of 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵 envy.

"The little girl notices the strikingly visible and well-proportioned 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵 of a brother or playmate, immediately recognizing it as the superior counterpart of her own small and hidden little organ and from then on she is subject to 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵 envy. She has seen it, knows that she does not have it, and wants it." Sure sounds like you and megatowers.

Originally Posted by Vin

So I don't why these forumers are still denying it.

You need to stop using "denial" for "any forum consensus you 'digress' with."

Horgan wants density, and he'll get it; everybody save the NIMBYs acknowledges that much of the corridor will reach some kind of streetscape in between OV's and Yaletown's. Assuming that he'll impose 40+ zoning on the corridor if City Council doesn't is simply delusional.

[misher]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

The little girl notices the strikingly visible and well-proportioned 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵 of a brother or playmate, immediately recognizing it as the superior counterpart of her own small and hidden little organ and from then on she is subject to 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵 envy... Horgan wants density, and he'll get it; everybody save the NIMBYs acknowledges that much of the corridor will reach some kind of streetscape in between OV's and Yaletown's. Assuming that he'll impose 40+ zoning on the corridor if City Council doesn't is simply delusional.

You assume Horgan doesn't have 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵 envy

In all honesty if we don't see 30+ and FSR's of 8+ (not just 1 or 2 buildings but in general) I expect a lot of criticism.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by misher

You assume Horgan doesn't have 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵 envy

In all honesty if we don't see 30+ and FSR's of 8+ (not just 1 or 2 buildings but in general) I expect a lot of criticism.

Naw, Horgan has a need to be liked by his voters and get reelected. Very different Freudian theory.

The Birch apartment has a good chance of being approved, but City staff have repeatedly had to assure people that there wouldn't be a canyon of 28-floor buildings from Arbutus to Main. I'm guessing at a patchwork quilt of 15-30s on Broadway, 3-10 on the side streets, and possibly a couple of 30-40s in the office district. That should be plenty of density for the pen-pushers in Victoria.

[logan5]

Originally Posted by Vin

What are you quoting? You mean the number of Nimbies in action? That I believe.

And provide source please.

Census is my source. It says right there in my post. I realize those numbers are unbelievable to you, but they are correct. The downtown peninsula alone is adding more people than Metrotown. You can look that up in the census too, by adding up census tracts, as well as adding about 100x more office space.

There's no way Burnaby or any other suburb can compete with Vancouver. SE False Creek has grown at a rampant rate, now we are seeing the beginning of a new high density neighbourhood at Oakridge, and the the rest of the development along Cambie. Now Broadway redevelopment is on the horizon.

Vin, it's not even close. Vancouver is adding people at 3 x the rate of Burnaby. The suburbs are actually falling further behind Vancouver in growth.