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  #5501  
Old Posted Nov 2, 2016, 3:53 PM
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^Red Arrow connection... so much better than flying

I don't mind the 67, especially with 2 of us A/C seating.
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  #5502  
Old Posted Nov 2, 2016, 5:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coldrsx View Post
^Red Arrow connection... so much better than flying

I don't mind the 67, especially with 2 of us A/C seating.
Red Arrow's great, agreed so much better than flying when going between yyc and yeg.

Oh and don't forget to bring a bottle of water
     
     
  #5503  
Old Posted Nov 2, 2016, 6:03 PM
Tobuz Tobuz is offline
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This pretty much sums up the past 24 hours of passenger feedback.

Sigh.














Wow.

People just aren't getting it, and it's causing frustration -- all in a beautiful, brand new terminal.

I wonder what the YYC team and their designers are thinking as they see this?
     
     
  #5504  
Old Posted Nov 2, 2016, 6:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LO 044 View Post
(1) I am not a versed traveller as most of you and i have only had one experience with CTG which was at LHR. It was before the new terminal that AC uses. I don't really care to sit in a North American food court with no view to the outside before making my way to a 30 seat departure area used to board a 767. Everyone was basically lined up in a hallway and the hold room looked like it used to be a maintenance room at some point. I will always avoid LHR compared to any other airport in Europe. I'm not saying YYC's central area is exactly the same but i just don't like this type of "customer experience".

(2) Congrats on the new digs though.
(1) T3 LHR is a windowless hole that reminds me of an interior food court at A mall. The only place worse than LHR T3 was YYZ T2 from the 80s when there was only four windows in the whole building.

The best aircraft viewing location in the new terminal is at the central food court. Viewing aircraft at the gate areas is difficult as airplanes are stacked close together and there are connecting walkways before getting to the air bridge.

(2) on behalf of Calgarians, thanks.
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  #5505  
Old Posted Nov 2, 2016, 6:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Acey View Post
I'm also doubting the existence of gate 77, well there certainly is not a lead-in nor bridge for it... and are gates 96 and 97 ground loading gates? Because there's no bridges there either.
There is indeed no actual gate 77. While in the terminal there is a sign for it, it will never be used airside to park aircraft. Gate 76 has two bridges and will be used mainly for wide body aircraft. I believe gates 96 and 97 are ground loading gates, but I haven't seen them used yet.

A couple other things that have come up at work:

Wide bodies parked at Gate 70 are actually lined up closer to Gate 71 and use 70B. If a wide body is at a gate, the twin gate (70/71 etc) cannot be used.

Someone mentioned the B/C concourse use after the ITB opening. I've only seen gate 32 used for a WS to YYJ and then gate 35 used for AC to YVR. Other than that it has been entirely empty.

For ATC in the first couple days it was generally smooth. We had a lot of training and updated a lot of things for the new flow of aircraft. This is the last of the big changes that YYC Tower has undergone in the last 5 years. We've had the new tower, Alberta Airspace project, new runway, and finally the ITB. It'll be nice to have some normalcy for once after we get used to the new setup. Our operation is unrecognizable from when I transferred to YYC nearly 7 years ago!
     
     
  #5506  
Old Posted Nov 2, 2016, 7:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tobuz View Post
People just aren't getting it, and it's causing frustration -- all in a beautiful, brand new terminal.

I wonder what the YYC team and their designers are thinking as they see this?
Not having a sense of how large the central waiting area is, is there a potential inflection point at which it isn't large enough to house all passengers waiting for gates?
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  #5507  
Old Posted Nov 2, 2016, 7:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick View Post
There is indeed no actual gate 77. While in the terminal there is a sign for it, it will never be used airside to park aircraft. Gate 76 has two bridges and will be used mainly for wide body aircraft. I believe gates 96 and 97 are ground loading gates, but I haven't seen them used yet.

A couple other things that have come up at work:

Wide bodies parked at Gate 70 are actually lined up closer to Gate 71 and use 70B. If a wide body is at a gate, the twin gate (70/71 etc) cannot be used.

Someone mentioned the B/C concourse use after the ITB opening. I've only seen gate 32 used for a WS to YYJ and then gate 35 used for AC to YVR. Other than that it has been entirely empty.

For ATC in the first couple days it was generally smooth. We had a lot of training and updated a lot of things for the new flow of aircraft. This is the last of the big changes that YYC Tower has undergone in the last 5 years. We've had the new tower, Alberta Airspace project, new runway, and finally the ITB. It'll be nice to have some normalcy for once after we get used to the new setup. Our operation is unrecognizable from when I transferred to YYC nearly 7 years ago!
It was a massive amount of change, kudos to you ATC'ers for handling it all so well and professionally.
     
     
  #5508  
Old Posted Nov 2, 2016, 7:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tobuz View Post

People just aren't getting it, and it's causing frustration -- all in a beautiful, brand new terminal.

I wonder what the YYC team and their designers are thinking as they see this?
Can't really blame the passengers if the screens are displaying the gate number. Naturally many would proceed to the gate even if boarding hasn't started
     
     
  #5509  
Old Posted Nov 2, 2016, 7:52 PM
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I'm going to set up a kiosk selling these before security at the new terminal and make a killing:

http://www.crazycreek.com/original-chair/
     
     
  #5510  
Old Posted Nov 2, 2016, 7:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadian74 View Post
Can't really blame the passengers if the screens are displaying the gate number. Naturally many would proceed to the gate even if boarding hasn't started
They should keep the gate number until about 15- 20 minutes before boarding THEN announce it. The process in which they are doing currently is confusing and frustrating to anyone who doesnt know or hasnt used call to gate before.
     
     
  #5511  
Old Posted Nov 2, 2016, 8:50 PM
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Now for something completely different.

In reviewing the Westjet quarterly conference call I questioned which was larger, WS Encore or WS 763 operation on the overall cost calculation.

Here are the assumptions:

Encore:
- 78 seats per Q400,
- 210 flights per day (from the quarterly call),
- 600 miles per segment (generous),

Widebody:
- 262 seats per 763,
- 6 flights per day (LGW to YVR, YYC, YYZ daily),
- 14000 miles per day (according to gcmap.com)

Run the results through a massive 2 line excel spreadsheet.
Encore ASMs per day: 9,828,000
Widebody ASMs per day: 22,008,000

So Encore with 32 airplanes and 210 flights per day is not not even material impact on operations compared to 3 763s operating 6 flights per day.
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  #5512  
Old Posted Nov 2, 2016, 8:55 PM
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When I’ve been at call to gate in Europe (MAD and IST) I recall that it was the way they used their monitors - and the info on those monitors - that made the system intuitive and easy to follow. (It's been years, mind you, and I never thought to take pictures!) From what's happening here this week, that may be lacking at YYC.

If I recall, it was something along the lines of :
  • Before boarding: Message on screen would alternate between “Wait here” and “Gate available at xx:xx”
  • Just prior: Message on screen would change to “Gate available in XX minutes”
  • Call to gate: Message would switch to “Go to gate XX now”

Nice and clear. And, visually, people would understand the system when they see multiple flights displaying those status messages consistently.

And, just as important, the CTG screens that I’ve seen elsewhere were not the typical flight info screens that we see at most airports. They need to look different so users understand that they're conveying different information.

The CTG screens that I've seen had a much smaller number of flights much more prominently displayed – which makes the info bigger and that much easier to see and digest. Six or eight flights on a screen, rather than 30.

The screens and their layout were sufficiently different that it was clear that they were actually providing instructions – not just the usual flight info. If they look like regular flight info screens, most people would never bother to read the 'comments' field for instructions. They'll just be doing a quick glance at it to see if it's on time, and then keep on walking by.

I haven’t seen photos of the monitor screens used for the D or E gates at YYC, but my hunch they’re nowhere near as clear and concise. (Otherwise, there wouldn't be this level of confusion and frustration.) And they probably look like regular ol' flight info screens, meaning people would never think that the screens are providing them with instructions to follow (and would just ignore what seems to be extraneous info).

But as simple as those other CTG monitor screens seemed, they’d need to be automated. And YYC undoubtedly has already sunk buckets of money and countless hours of vendors’ programming time on creating the existing D and E screens … i.e. the ones that are confusing people and creating anger over the perceived faults of not having seats to wait in at the gates! Unfortunately that makes it tough to re-do them, and really tough to fix them quickly!

(YYC's current response to the complaints is, well, unfortunate. They're responding to every complaint about lack of gate seating by directing the person - after they've already left, naturally - to a page of CTG instructions on their website. That ain't gonna work in the long term. And really won't do much in the short term, either. People won't read instructions about how to 'use' an airport.)
     
     
  #5513  
Old Posted Nov 2, 2016, 9:03 PM
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Well this doesn't look right...

http://forum.calgarypuck.com/showpost.php?p=5986109&postcount=1042

Quote:
So... I'm sure people can understand this map, but the orientation of the terminal map bugs me... that's not how it looks.

     
     
  #5514  
Old Posted Nov 2, 2016, 9:23 PM
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At least they got north right....
     
     
  #5515  
Old Posted Nov 2, 2016, 9:25 PM
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OK, another dumb question.

How do they manage the juxtaposition of "all rush to the gate at once" with "boarding by zone"?
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  #5516  
Old Posted Nov 2, 2016, 9:47 PM
CrossedTheTracks CrossedTheTracks is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joborule View Post
What the ??? How did they ??? OMG.

Well, I guess you can hold up a mirror to it.....
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  #5517  
Old Posted Nov 2, 2016, 10:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tobuz View Post
When I’ve been at call to gate in Europe (MAD and IST) I recall that it was the way they used their monitors - and the info on those monitors - that made the system intuitive and easy to follow. (It's been years, mind you, and I never thought to take pictures!) From what's happening here this week, that may be lacking at YYC.

If I recall, it was something along the lines of :
  • Before boarding: Message on screen would alternate between “Wait here” and “Gate available at xx:xx”
  • Just prior: Message on screen would change to “Gate available in XX minutes”
  • Call to gate: Message would switch to “Go to gate XX now”

Nice and clear. And, visually, people would understand the system when they see multiple flights displaying those status messages consistently.

And, just as important, the CTG screens that I’ve seen elsewhere were not the typical flight info screens that we see at most airports. They need to look different so users understand that they're conveying different information.

The CTG screens that I've seen had a much smaller number of flights much more prominently displayed – which makes the info bigger and that much easier to see and digest. Six or eight flights on a screen, rather than 30.

The screens and their layout were sufficiently different that it was clear that they were actually providing instructions – not just the usual flight info. If they look like regular flight info screens, most people would never bother to read the 'comments' field for instructions. They'll just be doing a quick glance at it to see if it's on time, and then keep on walking by.

I haven’t seen photos of the monitor screens used for the D or E gates at YYC, but my hunch they’re nowhere near as clear and concise. (Otherwise, there wouldn't be this level of confusion and frustration.) And they probably look like regular ol' flight info screens, meaning people would never think that the screens are providing them with instructions to follow (and would just ignore what seems to be extraneous info).

But as simple as those other CTG monitor screens seemed, they’d need to be automated. And YYC undoubtedly has already sunk buckets of money and countless hours of vendors’ programming time on creating the existing D and E screens … i.e. the ones that are confusing people and creating anger over the perceived faults of not having seats to wait in at the gates! Unfortunately that makes it tough to re-do them, and really tough to fix them quickly!

(YYC's current response to the complaints is, well, unfortunate. They're responding to every complaint about lack of gate seating by directing the person - after they've already left, naturally - to a page of CTG instructions on their website. That ain't gonna work in the long term. And really won't do much in the short term, either. People won't read instructions about how to 'use' an airport.)
Great post.

I would just suggest additionally the signs should also flash DO NOT GO TO GATE in addition to WAIT HERE just to make it extra obvious.

Quote:
Originally Posted by s211 View Post
OK, another dumb question.

How do they manage the juxtaposition of "all rush to the gate at once" with "boarding by zone"?
In an ideal world the CTG system would also handle zone boarding at the gate and flash "Now boarding Zone X" on all the screens. I personally would love to know exactly when to head out from the lounge or bar to the gate and not a second before.
     
     
  #5518  
Old Posted Nov 2, 2016, 10:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Acey View Post
Will people get the idea and just go for a stroll to find the big blue plane if they're off to AMS, for example, or try abiding by the system? I just so strongly hate the concept of call to gate that maybe it's only me that would do that, or just get the gate from any number of sources.
It's not just you Acey, I'm the same way. I guess I'll reserve judgement on how it all works until I actually use the new terminal but the way I am envisioning this I am absolutely going to hate the new CTG process.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cyeg66 View Post
Does this spotter's handle rhyme with Figtime?
My (educated) guess is YYC had some photogs strategically in place on 35L. The B789 sure is purty, especially compared to the stubby -8.
Aren't they all green and 1/4" long to you?
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  #5519  
Old Posted Nov 2, 2016, 10:50 PM
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Let's face it CTG is all about maximising revenue for the retailers/airport. Having all the stores/cafes/restaurants/kiosks in one central place avoids some operations being left out depending on where the gates for the flights are. If your venture is located next to a gate that is only used once or twice a day, you lose out.
However, having said that, it still sucks to have such little seating at the gates. There is plenty of room to build.
Even our new T4 in MEL for budget carriers has plenty of seating at the gates even with a CTG system.
As it stands now, there are just too few International flights to spread the shops and services over the interntional terminal... so just educate the travelling public, "Beyond this point there are no retail or food services." Then let them decide if they want to use the services or just go plunk themselves down at the gate early.

Last edited by Johnny Aussie; Nov 3, 2016 at 9:58 PM.
     
     
  #5520  
Old Posted Nov 2, 2016, 11:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Tobuz View Post
Bottlenecked at CATSA?!? Really interesting. Can you explain what exactly the bottleneck is? My understanding was that domestic>transborder and domestic>intl passengers would not need to be re-screened ... and either go straight to the departure concourse (if intl) or straight to US CBP clearance (if transborder). Is that not the case??
I was just about to ask this too. Also, how do international-USA connections work? Is it similar to the process at YYZ where they bypass CBSA screening and go straight to USCBP? And International-international connections?
     
     
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