Winnipeg Retail

[esquire]

Originally Posted by CoryB

^^ The condos on Waterfront are likely as far from a major grocery store as the Selkirk Ave area is from the McGregor and Mountain Safeway. Often when people talk about the "food desert" they are really saying "there is no 60,000+ sq ft, major chain grocery store that is within a walkable distance from my condo on Waterfront". I know there was lots of outcry over the closure of the Extra Foods on Main St when the then Safeway, now Coop, immediately next door remained open. It often gets wrapped up as being about inner city poverty though.

I think you're right. There is no conventional supermarket downtown ever since the Zellers store closed, but even then downtown is still fairly well served by grocers... you have the smaller grocers that still do a good job of providing the basics like the one at Broadway and Donald (which is deceptively large... the small streetfront presence makes it look like a convenience store), the ethnic grocers near Chinatown and the alternative places like Giant Tiger. And if that's not enough there are full-service supermarkets just a short hop away from downotwn, like the Osborne Village Safeway, the Sargent Safeway, No Frills and the Marion Extra Foods. Downtown is not really hurting for grocers, especially in relation to the population living there.

Originally Posted by CoryB

In terms of the former Polo Park Target location, Shindico, the leasing agent for the site, posts this on their site:

Source

Their leasing site also lists the size on that location as being 140,000 sq ft which rules out virtually every retailer with established operations in Canada that would be willing to consider a new location in Winnipeg. My guess is that you could perhaps talk Sears into moving their from Polo Park but you would be throwing out some pretty heavy concessions to make that happen. The Sear space in the mall is of course far more attractive but the mall as a whole would likely see long term benefit in having Simons move into that space. Having waited out the Winnipeg market for many years I doubt that Simons would be interested in trying to anchor the free standing Plaza site instead.

Whatever ends up occupying that site has to be a strong draw in its own right... I'm not sure that Simons fits the bill. I think they'd sink like a stone if they weren't connected to the mall and the traffic it would bring. I remember going there before Christmas and there was hardly anyone in there... and that's for Target, which was a known quantity. Imagine how barren the aisles would be for something like Simons.

As to residential on the stadium site, I recall the original housing plan was shot down because of flight path issues, but was housing prohibited on the site in general, or is it only residential buildings of a certain height that are banned? If they could build, for example, a couple of 4 or 5 storey mixed use buildings along Empress, Maroons and St. Matthews, it could be a nice antidote to all of the retail around there.

[CoryB]

Originally Posted by Riverman

Airport zoning does not allow any more residential development in the Polo Park area.

Sorry I find that hard to believe. The multi-story office building on the arena site, the approximately ten story apartment building at St James and Ness, the height of CanadInns Polo Park, the height of the old stadium grand stand and even the hotel proposed for the Plaza at Polo Park development all suggest some form of residential development on that site was indeed possible. The developer plain and simple did not want to use what they view as valuable land suitable for commercial development with higher revenue potential on residential development. You really expect the average joe to believe they couldn't get approval for a four story condo development on the site?

Originally Posted by esquire

Whatever ends up occupying that site has to be a strong draw in its own right... I'm not sure that Simons fits the bill. I think they'd sink like a stone if they weren't connected to the mall and the traffic it would bring. I remember going there before Christmas and there was hardly anyone in there... and that's for Target, which was a known quantity. Imagine how barren the aisles would be for something like Simons.

I really can't see Simons opening there. The closest we have in Winnipeg to them would be Hudsons Bay. Being a new and relatively unknown name coming to town they would have an up hill fight pulling in the type of shopper they line themselves up with. If Sears were to vacate their Polo Park anchor position though that seems like the type of location Simons is looking for. The question become though could you talk Sears into moving into the Target space at Polo Park? With the rate they are shedding leases in Canada I wouldn't dismiss it as Polo Park is their most valuable lease in Winnipeg but what type of concessions would be needed to get them into the Target space? Might they consider moving out of the mall and flipping the banner on their Ellice Home store instead of the Target site? Could they leave the Polo area altogether? Sears itself is a huge question mark on when they will go bankrupt.

I am a little surprised Shindico let Target call the shots like they did. If they had instead done a centre entrance it wold have made splitting the space easier if needed. That said, finding two parties interested in 70,000 sq ft wouldn't be a lot easier than finding one interested in 140,000.

[Pegoise]

It's not a question of height - It's a question of ears. Adding residential near the airport increases the possibility of noise complaints to NavCan, this increases the threat to the 24-hour operation of the Airport. They would fight new residential - thus the Airport Vicinity Protection Area.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by CoryB

Sorry I find that hard to believe. The multi-story office building, the approximately ten story apartment building at St James and Ness, the height of CanadInns Polo Park, the height of the old stadium grand stand and even the hotel proposed for the Plaza at Polo Park development all suggest some form of residential development on that site was indeed possible. The developer plain and simple did not want to use what they view as valuable land suitable for commercial development with higher revenue potential on residential development. You really expect the average joe to believe they couldn't get approval for a four story condo development on the site?

Turns out that Riverman's right... residential is a no-go in the entire airport zone. Bartley Kives lamented this earlier this year in a column:

http://www.thecarillon.com/provincia...290031091.html

Seems unreasonable, really... I mean, I can understand why new residential would be prohibited directly under a flight path, but the AVDP seems to cover a substantial part of the city. Under the rules in place, new residential is a no go anywhere in the Polo Park area, despite the fact that thousands of people already live nearby in SFHs, walkup apartments and highrises. Maybe the old stadium grounds are not the place for huge skyscrapers, but you would think a few more low/midrise buildings would work there.

If all those people lived right by the flight paths during all those years when aircraft were noisy as hell, I'm not sure why it's suddenly such a big deal when they are far, far quieter. YWG is surrounded by fairly dense city on two sides and now the city is starting to surround it on the north side too... the horse is already out of the barn on protecting the surrounding lands.

[Riverman]

Originally Posted by Pegoise

It's not a question of height - It's a question of ears. Adding residential near the airport increases the possibility of noise complaints to NavCan, this increases the threat to the 24-hour operation of the Airport. They would fight new residential - thus the Airport Vicinity Protection Area.

This. No more residential development.

[vjose32]

I see some work going on at the old Bargain Shop at Main and Jefferson, anyone know what is replacing it?

[Riverman]

Whoops Esquire got there first!

[cllew]

Is that restriction on development being enforced more now? I thought that condo's were put up on part of the old CN Oak Point lands in River Heights which I believe is under the noise abatement area.

Or is it just because the old stadium site is closer to the airport and might be be louder as the jets get lower?

[Cyro]

Originally Posted by esquire

Turns out that Riverman's right... residential is a no-go in the entire airport zone. Bartley Kives lamented this earlier this year in a column:

http://www.thecarillon.com/provincia...290031091.html

Seems unreasonable, really... I mean, I can understand why new residential would be prohibited directly under a flight path, but the AVDP seems to cover a substantial part of the city. Under the rules in place, new residential is a no go anywhere in the Polo Park area, despite the fact that thousands of people already live nearby in SFHs, walkup apartments and highrises. Maybe the old stadium grounds are not the place for huge skyscrapers, but you would think a few more low/midrise buildings would work there.

If all those people lived right by the flight paths during all those years when aircraft were noisy as hell, I'm not sure why it's suddenly such a big deal when they are far, far quieter. YWG is surrounded by fairly dense city on two sides and now the city is starting to surround it on the north side too... the horse is already out of the barn on protecting the surrounding lands.

Accurate to a degee, saying any residential contruction in the airport zone is a no go would be false. Kives article does explain tight restrictions but he does not say it could not happen or will not happen.

Article quote:

Housing planned for the second phase of the development had to be scrapped, but not because of the developers. As it turns out, zoning rules governing the use of land around Richardson International Airport preclude the possibility of any large-scale new residential development within the highly desirable Polo Park area.


In the outer fringes of this area -- parts of Tyndall Park, Weston, the West End, River Heights, Tuxedo, Charleswood and St. James -- single-family homes are allowed to rise. Closer to the airport, in Polo Park and eastern St. James, the development restrictions are tighter.

Immediately around the airport, no new residential homes or apartments can go up unless they replace existing ones, though "minor residential infilling" could be approved by the city as a conditional use.

Larger scale new development will likely never happen, will residential development happen, yes.

[biguc]

Why does the city require the WAA's approval to change its zoning? Disallowing residential development in an area where thousands of people already live is the height of stupidity.

[cllew]

Originally Posted by biguc

Why does the city require the WAA's approval to change its zoning? Disallowing residential development in an area where thousands of people already live is the height of stupidity.

See in here.

http://www.waa.ca/waa/noise/mitigation

And the noise complaint stats are here

http://www.waa.ca/waa/noise

It appears the numbers are trending down but that is probably due to new modern quieter aircraft.

[cllew]

I just found a clause in the 2011 zoning agreement for the CN Oak Point condo project that is interesting:

That the Developer and all successors in title to the lot shall register and
maintain in perpetuity by way of caveat or master or declaratory easement
against the titles to the lot, a clause stating that the property is located
within the Winnipeg Airport Vicinity Protection Area and as such, the
Developer and its successors in title may be exposed to nuisance levels of
noise generated by the Winnipeg International Airport from time to time.
The Developer acknowledges and saves harmless the Winnipeg
International Airport and the City from any liability resulting from
nuisance levels of noise which may interfere with the comfort, well-being,
livelihood, and enjoyment of life by the Developer and its successor or
successors in title. The Developer and its successors must submit the
agreements or easements to the City Solicitor for approval prior to
execution.

I guess that it means that if you buy one of the condo units you give up the right to complain about jet noise.

[horrorbro123]

Polo Park Want Build a Bear Second Location in Winnipeg

[CoryB]

Originally Posted by esquire

I can understand why new residential would be prohibited directly under a flight path, but the AVDP seems to cover a substantial part of the city.

I must be missing something. I have been in other cities where the noise from the airport can easily be heard outside, to the point of being a nuisance. Through modern building methods in noise isolation you can't even hear them inside. Granted that level of noise isolation is likely above the standard code but it is possible. A limitation requiring a higher level of noise isolation in residential within the airport zone would make more sense than an outright ban.

A further question I have is how was the City not aware of this restriction when calling for proposals for the Stadium site? This really calls into question if that was done fairly and in a completely above board manner. It is even more troubling knowing it was awarded to Shindico and the other allegations they were treated favourable by the previous civic government.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by CoryB

I must be missing something. I have been in other cities where the noise from the airport can easily be heard outside, to the point of being a nuisance. Through modern building methods in noise isolation you can't even hear them inside. Granted that level of noise isolation is likely above the standard code but it is possible. A limitation requiring a higher level of noise isolation in residential within the airport zone would make more sense than an outright ban.

Yeah, it's as though WAA sent the City their wish list and the City in turn made that the zoning law, to the letter. Come on... surely there is some middle ground between totally unencumbered residential development by the airport and not allowing any new residential at all.

The Polo Park area south of Ellice seems like a natural site for more residential development some day.

[Riverman]

Originally Posted by CoryB

I must be missing something. I have been in other cities where the noise from the airport can easily be heard outside, to the point of being a nuisance.

Those cities probably do not have 24 hour airports. They are very rare.

[bomberjet]

On the airport. Maybe wrong thread. But if 24 hour airports are rare, who would Cory be comparing. I would think any of the Cities ahead of Winnipeg in Canada rankings have 24 hours airports (Tor, Cal, Van, Edm, etc)?

Then we have zero international (non US) flights leaving YWG in the summer. So Winnipegers must do a shit ton of domestic flights and cargo if Winnipeg is a rare 24 hour a day airport. Is that a correct assumption? I'll post this in the airport thread to continue the discussion.

[vjose32]

Who would want to live in that area anyway? It's not just noise from the airport that is an issue but all the noise and traffic from the people going to the stores.

[horrorbro123]

I Found This Location Rumors Could Be Build-a-Bear Workshop In Polo Park?

[CoryB]

Target Canada has announced the first round of stores to close, starting next week. So far none of the Manitoba stores are listed however considering none of the Manitoba leases are in high demand it is likely stores here will close in later waves, likely with one store closing several weeks after all the others in an effort to maximize the sell off of inventory in MB.