Rethinking the Queensway

[White Pine]

Speaking as someone from outside Ottawa (Pembroke), the Queensway shouldn't be torn down until there is an alternative for getting to town (ex. commuter rail). Unless it gets buried.

[Innsertnamehere]

Originally Posted by Aylmer

I'm not saying it will happen, but it could work. One thing's for sure, the predictions of carmageddon would be exactly as valid as they were in San Francisco, Seoul, Portland, Paris, Madrid, New York, etc.

However, much as I'd like to see it, I'd rather see the Nicolas done away with first - it's shocking to have that monstrosity cut the university and the city from a UNESCO site. They're going to be removing two lanes of it during the LRT construction and once traffic mayhem fails to materialise, I would absolutely love it to be kept a two-lane street.

I'm glad this article was published and I truly hope that it starts some talk (hopefully accompanied by thinking).

Not really, the highways they ripped down in SF and NYC were secondary feeder highways, not the core highway through the city which is fairly inelastic in terms of demand. Plus both those roads were replaced with large arterial roads which still carry large amounts of traffic. SF would never dare tear down I-80, which plays a similar roll to that of the 417. Nicholas could probably go without too much fuss, but the 417 is simply too busy and too important to disappear.

[Aylmer]

But if you really think of it, we have a highway with a 120 km/h design speed which most people (aka people who commute) only ever experience at a speed of 30-50km/h, if not less. For the majority of its users, a signalised, multiway boulevard wouldn't be significantly slower.

But let's say that people do drive at an average speed of 100km/h between Preston and Main and let's say that, with signalisation, the average speed of the new multiway boulevard is only 40km/h. If you're driving from Kanata to St. Laurent and you have zero slowdowns, it currently takes you about 20 minutes. With a multiway boulevard, you could expect it to take 22 minutes.

It's hardly dramatic to add 2 minutes to your commute.

[1overcosc]

If we were to rip up the Queensway, the transit, pedestrian, and cyclist mode share would have to be WAY higher. Probably something like 70% citywide, and above 90% for downtown commuters. The Confederation Line probably doesn't have the capacity to handle such a dramatic increase in ridership anyway (although it is capable of scaling up to almost three times its expected opening day ridership).

417 congestion is not going away, either. Even with the widening projects in the works (the 8 laning projects in Kanata and 174-Nicholas, and the future 8 laning between 416 & Carling that's likely coming by the end of the decade), projections are that congestion levels on the 417 will be even higher than they are today by 2031. For example, the city predicts AM gridlock will become regular in sections like 174-Walkley which are currently freeflowing at peak.

Replacing Preston-Main with a boulevard would actually harm the N-S streets IMO by adding a giant 8 lane road to cross at a crosswalk. I'd much rather walk underneath the 417 going along Bank, Metcalfe, etc. than have to cross a huge road in a crosswalk.

[bikegypsy]

Originally Posted by flar

Ridiculous. Without the queensway we would spend our entire lives stuck in traffic.

You need a car to live in most of Ottawa, end of story. No amount of public transit will change that, it's the way it was built.

During non rush hour I can be downtown in 10 minutes via the queensway and leave when ever I want vs 30 minutes by bus and up to 15 minutes waiting.

During rush hour the transitway is equal or better than driving.

True if your talking about the total land area but false if your talking about where most people live. Ottawa and Gatineau have quite decent transit systems and biking in the city is a breaze. 80% of the population have direct access to buses and/or lrt. I've never owned a car in Ottawa but I've lived in various neighborhoods including Overbrook, Mont-Bleu, Sandy Hill and even Aylmer as well as Bells Corners. No problem. On the Ottawa side, the only wards where a car would be really necessary are West Carleton-March, Rideau-Goulbourn, Osgoode and Cumberland, totaling only about 150,000 in population. On the Quebec side, I guess Buckingham is really tough without a car. Having said this, getting rid of the Queensway is an absurd idea.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by rocketphish

Soon, it will be time to revitalize Elgin Street

Why?

What's wrong with Elgin Street?

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by eternallyme

Trenching would not change the capacity, but it would be expensive and disruptive.

There is almost no chance of any expansion of the 417 in the downtown area. No room to do so.

Expropriation is a hell of a drug.

[JM1]

The problem with transit in Ottawa is not access but speed, frequency and reliability. If I take transit to work, I cannot reasonably predict when I will get there (bike has the hgihest time reliability, followed by car).

Indeed, it may be the access to transit that causes the most problems -- long circuitous neighbourhood routes should be eliminated in favour of high frequency lines along major north-south and east-west arterials. I don't mind walking three or four blocks to a bus stop if I know that once I get there, I will have reliable, frequent, and fast service.

Originally Posted by bikegypsy

True if your talking about the total land area but false if your talking about where most people live. Ottawa and Gatineau have quite decent transit systems and biking in the city is a breaze. 80% of the population have direct access to buses and/or lrt. I've never owned a car in Ottawa but I've lived in various neighborhoods including Overbrook, Mont-Bleu, Sandy Hill and even Aylmer as well as Bells Corners. No problem. On the Ottawa side, the only wards where a car would be really necessary are West Carleton-March, Rideau-Goulbourn, Osgoode and Cumberland, totaling only about 150,000 in population. On the Quebec side, I guess Buckingham is really tough without a car. Having said this, getting rid of the Queensway is an absurd idea.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by c_speed3108

The other thing is that looking at Historical photos of the city, statements like "the Queensway divided neighbourhoods" or "the Queensway cut through neighbourhoods" are not accurate. The land where most of the Queensway (particularly the downtown part) was previously a railway, which if left as a railway would have and did cut those areas in half every bit as much as the highway does. Actually the highway with overpasses and landscaped embankments probably actually is less impactful than level crossings and chain linked fences - but I suppose that is a matter of opinion.

Back in the day before bubble-wrapped everything, there would have been no chain-link fences.

[eternallyme]

How would you all feel if Carling, Baseline, Montreal Road, etc. were all 8 or 10 lanes wide instead of mostly 4 lanes now? That would be even worse for pedestrians.

[silvergate]

The queensway could be eliminated if the city committed to turning all of its communities into walkable places, so having multiple centers of employment surrounded by far denser neighbourhoods outside of the core. Of course, that probably doesn't fit in too well with current city planning.

[Marcus CLS]

Some of the above comments are invalid. The 417 is an interprovincial highway, with cargo truck traffic and allows for the movement of goods. It serves a double purpose. Commuting and through traffic that is not stopping by. It is under provincial jurisdiction not city. The Gardiner expressway in T.O. is under city jurisdiction so opinions about burying, altering or demolishing the Gardiner are valid. In Ottawa however, as a 400 series highway these considerations are invalid. It serves the province and the city but the province trumps local city considerations.

Trucks are banned from the NCC parkways.

A ring road will be required down the road as has happened in Calgary and Edmonton but the Queensway is here to stay.

The GTA has a ring road (sort of) it's called the 407, also under provincial juisdiction.

[manny_santos]

Originally Posted by Marcus CLS

Some of the above comments are invalid. The 417 is an interprovincial highway, with cargo truck traffic and allows for the movement of goods. It serves a double purpose. Commuting and through traffic that is not stopping by. It is under provincial jurisdiction not city. The Gardiner expressway in T.O. is under city jurisdiction so opinions about burying, altering or demolishing the Gardiner are valid. In Ottawa however, as a 400 series highway these considerations are invalid. It serves the province and the city but the province trumps local city considerations.

Trucks are banned from the NCC parkways.

A ring road will be required down the road as has happened in Calgary and Edmonton but the Queensway is here to stay.

The GTA has a ring road (sort of) it's called the 407, also under provincial juisdiction.

That's the first anyone has pointed out that the 417 is a provincial highway, the City of Ottawa can't do anything about it. The suggestion by the Citizen writer is no different than someone suggesting the City of Toronto should get rid of the 401, it would never happen.

The 407 though is not provincial, it is a privately owned road (though originally built by the province)

[manny_santos]

Originally Posted by eternallyme

With no Queensway, Ottawa would have uber-congested urban arterials and most of them would need to be 8, 10 lanes wide. As it is, Ottawa has very few 6-lane arterials.

You'd have London, Ontario's traffic on an even worse scale.

[rocketphish]

Originally Posted by manny_santos

The 407 though is not provincial, it is a privately owned road (though originally built by the province)

My interpretation of the following pages is that the Province of Ontario remains the owner of Highway 407, but it is being operated and managed by the 407 International Inc. consortium under a 99-year lease.

"The route is operated privately under a 99-year lease agreement with the provincial government."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ontario_Highway_407


"As the concessionaire for the highway, 407 ETR is responsible for all maintenance, construction and customer service and also pays the full cost of police enforcement along the highway. The highway lease requires that 407 ETR attract and maintain certain levels of traffic. If certain traffic thresholds are not met, a congestion payment to the Province may be required.

At the end of the lease agreement, the highway and toll systems etc. will be transferred to the Province of Ontario."

http://www.407etr.com/about/backgrou...ormation1.html

[manny_santos]

Originally Posted by rocketphish

At the end of the lease agreement, the highway and toll systems etc. will be transferred to the Province of Ontario."

http://www.407etr.com/about/backgrou...ormation1.html

If we still have highways like we know them now in 2098. Depends on if we still have oil in 2098.

[HighwayStar]

Originally Posted by manny_santos

If we still have highways like we know them now in 2098. Depends on if we still have oil in 2098.

Why are highways dependent on oil?? Electricity, hydrogen, propane and probably a bunch of other stuff powers vehicles just fine

[roger1818]

This discussion was originally started in the New Civic Hospital | Planning thread. Since the conversation was off topic, I have created a new thread for it here.

Originally Posted by Urbanarchit

If anything, the Queensway should be demolished, as other, more progressive (better) cities are starting to do. Public transportation is being improved (and is already much better north of the Queensway than south), there are more opportunities for development and currently more people who live north of the Queensway that realistically we don't need to be too considered about traffic. But trying to fix traffic by widening roads never works (famous simile: "Widening roads to prevent congestion is like a fat man loosening his belt to prevent obesity.")

Originally Posted by Mikeed

The suggesting that the Queensway should be demolished is a suggestion outside the scope of reality. I prefer to deal with realities.

Originally Posted by Urbanarchit

It's very well within the scope of reality, as many other cities have realised. Unfortunately, our political leaders aren't progressive/ forward-thinkers and don't have much in the way of urban studies education to understand the impact the Queensway has had on the city and how it limits its potential. San Francisco used to think freeways were necessary to move their city, and when the earthquake happened the soon realised how unnecessary and burdensome it actually was that they chose not to replace it. Seoul removed their freeway over the Cheonggyecheon, and both cities having done this boosted the economies of the surrounding areas and made highly desirable locales.

People will only continue moving out of the city and driving everywhere if we decide that something that has only caused problems for Ottawa should not only stay, but be added to to create more problems. As someone who has lived their entire lives blocks from it in the urban parts of Ottawa, I can only ever live the reality of what the Queensway has done and continues to do.

Those examples (and others listed on the webpage ) have one thing in common: They all passed through the downtown core. However, the Queensway is on the outer skirts of Ottawa's downtown. Before demolishing the Queensway, I would look at demolishing Colonel By Drive, Queen Elizabeth Drive and even Nicholas Street. The removal of those would really open up access to the Rideau Canal and the pathways beside it, though we would probably also need to bury the new LRT tracks as well .

[SkeggsEggs]

I personally believe that we should demolish Colonel By Drive north of Main Street. Though, you could go all the way to the highway as most cars going North seem to turn left rather than continue on. The green space and roadway is very wide along the canal at this point. We could make the canal more a destination, while the UNESCO heritage thing is nice, there isn't really much to do except walk along the Canal. You could put small buildings such as a coffee shop, or other amenities. In the winter it could also be used for more Winterlude stuff.

[TheGoods]

LOL, I almost feel off my chair. You want to demolish the Queensway, forget about the people commuting to work, what about all of the commercial trucks and people going to cities like Toronto and Montreal, how would that work, send them on the side / residential streets. Every business that sells items (retail) such as grocery stores, restaurants, and other types of retail, all their products come for outside of Ottawa. What about the individual that has to go to work or take a weekend in Toronto and is coming from Orleans, or an individual coming from Kanata to go to Montreal. Reality is that we still need cars and truck.